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Kerry To Join The Munster Hurling Championship?

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Replying To Onfor15:  "Its actually really straightforward.

If Kerry win the Joe McDonagh, the following year there should be 6 in Munster and 5 in Leinster. If in the following year a Leinster team wins the Joe McDonagh there should be 5 in Munster and 6 in Leinster.
Whichever province has 6 teams in it in any given year, the bottom team gets relegated."
Yes, I'd agree that would make most sense from a purely structural point of view, but likely opposition would stem from how you'd then be relegating a Leinster team despite the fact that no other other Leinster team has earned the right to replace them.

Also remember the likely difficulty in getting that system approved when you consider how many counties would probably vote against it for their own reasons (outlined above).

By the way, don't think bountyboy22's suggestion would work - that Kerry (or 6th team in Munster) would play 6th team in Leinster to determine who goes down. Say the Leinster team wins that. The team coming up would also be a "Leinster" team, even if they're Antrim or Down. Do they become a seventh team in Leinster, or would they have to go into Munster to take Kerry's place as a sixth team there? Neither situation ideal.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2856 - 19/10/2022 10:41:58    2444573

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Its not an easy one to figure out when you put everything on the table but one thing is for sure is that if Kerry win then they go straight into Munster.
I'd argue that the bottom two teams in both provinces go into a round robin for relegation - albeit then you have to consider whos coming up also.
This year I'd have no complaints if Tipp were relegated even if you'd give us a good chance of beating a couple of the Leinster teams.

To me I have a major issue with the Joe Mac finalists getting into the All Ireland series. If Tipp/Dub were relegated there would be uproar about an easy path to the All Ireland series the following year.
Not that long ago I remember Offaly (and others in other years) finishing 4th in Div 1B getting into the league q-final and the 5th/6th team in 1A not getting there. How can the 10th team deserve that place over the 5th/6th?
I get the idea behind it but strongly disagree with it. Its madness and wouldnt happen in any other high level sport. I've seen similar in the past in Tipp club hurling and its still in place this year in Galway club hurling. No logic to it.

tiobraid (Tipperary) - Posts: 4119 - 19/10/2022 11:08:34    2444581

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Replying To tiobraid:  "Its not an easy one to figure out when you put everything on the table but one thing is for sure is that if Kerry win then they go straight into Munster.
I'd argue that the bottom two teams in both provinces go into a round robin for relegation - albeit then you have to consider whos coming up also.
This year I'd have no complaints if Tipp were relegated even if you'd give us a good chance of beating a couple of the Leinster teams.

To me I have a major issue with the Joe Mac finalists getting into the All Ireland series. If Tipp/Dub were relegated there would be uproar about an easy path to the All Ireland series the following year.
Not that long ago I remember Offaly (and others in other years) finishing 4th in Div 1B getting into the league q-final and the 5th/6th team in 1A not getting there. How can the 10th team deserve that place over the 5th/6th?
I get the idea behind it but strongly disagree with it. Its madness and wouldnt happen in any other high level sport. I've seen similar in the past in Tipp club hurling and its still in place this year in Galway club hurling. No logic to it."
It's a separate issue, but I agree with you about how the Joe McDonagh finalists are springboarded into the All-Ireland playoff series.

Was in Tralee this year when Wexford played Kerry there in the preliminary quarter-final, and even a Kerry official remarked to me that system seemed odd when it allowed Kerry to go further in the All-Ireland series than either Tipperary or Waterford.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2856 - 19/10/2022 11:30:25    2444587

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Replying To tiobraid:  "Its not an easy one to figure out when you put everything on the table but one thing is for sure is that if Kerry win then they go straight into Munster.
I'd argue that the bottom two teams in both provinces go into a round robin for relegation - albeit then you have to consider whos coming up also.
This year I'd have no complaints if Tipp were relegated even if you'd give us a good chance of beating a couple of the Leinster teams.

To me I have a major issue with the Joe Mac finalists getting into the All Ireland series. If Tipp/Dub were relegated there would be uproar about an easy path to the All Ireland series the following year.
Not that long ago I remember Offaly (and others in other years) finishing 4th in Div 1B getting into the league q-final and the 5th/6th team in 1A not getting there. How can the 10th team deserve that place over the 5th/6th?
I get the idea behind it but strongly disagree with it. Its madness and wouldnt happen in any other high level sport. I've seen similar in the past in Tipp club hurling and its still in place this year in Galway club hurling. No logic to it."
I think the thinking behind the 4th place on div1b getting through was that there wasn't a big difference between any of the top 10, at the time, hurling counties in any given year. For example looking forward to next year can you predict the 4 semi finalists for Liam with any certainty? I can't. Any 1 of Galway, Kilkenny and Wexford might win Leinster and so too could Dublin if they get their act together. And while Limerick would be favourites for Munster next year you wouldn't fall off your barstool in shock if any of the other 4 won it either!

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 15673 - 19/10/2022 11:42:40    2444592

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "It's a separate issue, but I agree with you about how the Joe McDonagh finalists are springboarded into the All-Ireland playoff series.

Was in Tralee this year when Wexford played Kerry there in the preliminary quarter-final, and even a Kerry official remarked to me that system seemed odd when it allowed Kerry to go further in the All-Ireland series than either Tipperary or Waterford."
That's a nonsense nod to tradition if ever I heard one. Why should 2 counties who only win 1 championship game between them out of 7 in a year, (and that was the one where they played each other so 1 of them was likely to win that one!), deserve to go any further than they did last year?

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 15673 - 19/10/2022 11:47:08    2444593

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Replying To Viking66:  "That's a nonsense nod to tradition if ever I heard one. Why should 2 counties who only win 1 championship game between them out of 7 in a year, (and that was the one where they played each other so 1 of them was likely to win that one!), deserve to go any further than they did last year?"
Am only saying what the man said.

And what you say is valid. I wouldn't have taken it as a call to allow Tipperary or Waterford to remain in the championship any longer than they did. Winning only one match between them (and that where they played each other) means neither can have any complaints about going out early.

Point remains though that it's unusual to springboard two teams from a secondary competition into the latter stages of a primary competition, after a number of other teams in that primary competition have already been eliminated.

For instance, Div. 2 league winners don't go into Div. 1 playoffs. Christy Ring Cup winners don't go into the Joe McDonagh Cup playoffs. A team that reaches an intermediate club final (like your own club did this year) doesn't go straight into the playoffs of that year's senior championship.

You might agree with the idea of letting the Joe McDonagh Cup finalists into the All-Ireland playoffs to give them a chance to measure themselves against Tier 1 opposition, but that doesn't change the fact that the structure is unusual.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2856 - 19/10/2022 12:47:42    2444605

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Replying To Viking66:  "I think the thinking behind the 4th place on div1b getting through was that there wasn't a big difference between any of the top 10, at the time, hurling counties in any given year. For example looking forward to next year can you predict the 4 semi finalists for Liam with any certainty? I can't. Any 1 of Galway, Kilkenny and Wexford might win Leinster and so too could Dublin if they get their act together. And while Limerick would be favourites for Munster next year you wouldn't fall off your barstool in shock if any of the other 4 won it either!"
I disagree. At that time 1A had the "6 best teams" and 1B had next best 6 - as it turned out the AI winners came from 1B for a couple of years. outside the top 2-3 in 1B there was a big gulf at that time.
Regardless if there was or not, why can you be rewarding the 10th best in the league with a knockout game when they barely deserved going to the third tier.
The second part of your post is different to my point but I agree but you can be sure it wont be the Joe Mac finalists which is my point.

tiobraid (Tipperary) - Posts: 4119 - 19/10/2022 15:36:52    2444624

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Replying To Viking66:  "That's a nonsense nod to tradition if ever I heard one. Why should 2 counties who only win 1 championship game between them out of 7 in a year, (and that was the one where they played each other so 1 of them was likely to win that one!), deserve to go any further than they did last year?"
They definitely do not, I agree with that - and as I said if you don't win a game you should also be relegated.

But a team clearly ranked lower than them should not get to skip the bear pits of Leinster and Munster and get into the latter stages of Liam Mac.
If you put the same logic in any other sports competition in the world there would be uproar.
Do you think the winners of the Wexford Intermediate cship should get straight into the senior semi or quarter finals? Would they deserve that?
I get the sentiment but its ridiculously silly in my opinion.

tiobraid (Tipperary) - Posts: 4119 - 19/10/2022 15:43:02    2444626

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "Am only saying what the man said.

And what you say is valid. I wouldn't have taken it as a call to allow Tipperary or Waterford to remain in the championship any longer than they did. Winning only one match between them (and that where they played each other) means neither can have any complaints about going out early.

Point remains though that it's unusual to springboard two teams from a secondary competition into the latter stages of a primary competition, after a number of other teams in that primary competition have already been eliminated.

For instance, Div. 2 league winners don't go into Div. 1 playoffs. Christy Ring Cup winners don't go into the Joe McDonagh Cup playoffs. A team that reaches an intermediate club final (like your own club did this year) doesn't go straight into the playoffs of that year's senior championship.

You might agree with the idea of letting the Joe McDonagh Cup finalists into the All-Ireland playoffs to give them a chance to measure themselves against Tier 1 opposition, but that doesn't change the fact that the structure is unusual."
I think it has more to do with promoting the game in general, as the matches concerned are home fixtures against top tier opposition so would be expected to raise the profile of hurling in those counties, and the competition in particular, as the preliminary QFs raise the profile of the Joe Mac as a competition. Its also a nice reward for the counties concerned for doing well. And tbh both counties acquitted themselves fairly well. Cork only really pulled away in the last quarter and Kerry put it up to us especially in the 1st half. Would have been interesting to see how both would have done after a 2 week break. The 1 week break was very unfair on them after such a big game (the Joe Mac final).

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 15673 - 19/10/2022 17:16:39    2444645

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Replying To tiobraid:  "I disagree. At that time 1A had the "6 best teams" and 1B had next best 6 - as it turned out the AI winners came from 1B for a couple of years. outside the top 2-3 in 1B there was a big gulf at that time.
Regardless if there was or not, why can you be rewarding the 10th best in the league with a knockout game when they barely deserved going to the third tier.
The second part of your post is different to my point but I agree but you can be sure it wont be the Joe Mac finalists which is my point."
Ah yes I know what you mean. The QFs for the top 4 in 1b were the bone threw out to the dogs after the roast dinner eaten at the top table when the format was changed. At the same time I wouldn't say div1b had the next best 6. As you said yourself the AI winners came from the division on a couple of occasions. And then the "big" counties started bleating that the top teams in 1b had an unfair advantage as they could take it easier in the League and blood new players. No winning with some people!!!

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 15673 - 19/10/2022 17:21:22    2444647

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Replying To tiobraid:  "They definitely do not, I agree with that - and as I said if you don't win a game you should also be relegated.

But a team clearly ranked lower than them should not get to skip the bear pits of Leinster and Munster and get into the latter stages of Liam Mac.
If you put the same logic in any other sports competition in the world there would be uproar.
Do you think the winners of the Wexford Intermediate cship should get straight into the senior semi or quarter finals? Would they deserve that?
I get the sentiment but its ridiculously silly in my opinion."
I agree it's silly from a competitive standpoint but I don't think that's the point. It's about promoting the Joe Mac and the game of hurling and I'd be all for that. The decision not to invite representatives from the 2 counties to the promotional photo shoot was very bad though. Would've been great if Antrim had somehow beaten Cork. Less so if Kerry won though!!!!!

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 15673 - 19/10/2022 17:24:50    2444649

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "It's a separate issue, but I agree with you about how the Joe McDonagh finalists are springboarded into the All-Ireland playoff series.

Was in Tralee this year when Wexford played Kerry there in the preliminary quarter-final, and even a Kerry official remarked to me that system seemed odd when it allowed Kerry to go further in the All-Ireland series than either Tipperary or Waterford."
It might seem odd but you have to remember that McDonagh counties have facilitated the current provincial structure. The trade off was access to the preliminary quarter-finals. It was a rare achievement for these teams to get a decent trade.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8773 - 19/10/2022 19:52:43    2444671

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Replying To Viking66:  "I agree it's silly from a competitive standpoint but I don't think that's the point. It's about promoting the Joe Mac and the game of hurling and I'd be all for that. The decision not to invite representatives from the 2 counties to the promotional photo shoot was very bad though. Would've been great if Antrim had somehow beaten Cork. Less so if Kerry won though!!!!!"
Fully agree with you anyway that not inviting Antrim and Kerry to the promo event to launch the All-Ireland series was a shocking decision, particularly since it was held in the week leading up to when Antrim and Kerry were playing in the All-Ireland series. Would have been some excuse if it was held the following week and featured only the remaining teams.

GAA top brass would probably defend it by saying Antrim and Kerry were featured in the Joe McDonagh Cup Final promo the week before. But if you're going to allow the same teams into two competitions, stands to reason they should be represented at events to promote both competitions too.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2856 - 19/10/2022 21:47:34    2444685

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Replying To legendzxix:  "It might seem odd but you have to remember that McDonagh counties have facilitated the current provincial structure. The trade off was access to the preliminary quarter-finals. It was a rare achievement for these teams to get a decent trade."
You're right. And I don't mind admitting that I forgot that, so thanks for reminding me. Explains how the unusual structure came into being in the first place.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2856 - 20/10/2022 12:41:38    2444751

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "Fully agree with you anyway that not inviting Antrim and Kerry to the promo event to launch the All-Ireland series was a shocking decision, particularly since it was held in the week leading up to when Antrim and Kerry were playing in the All-Ireland series. Would have been some excuse if it was held the following week and featured only the remaining teams.

GAA top brass would probably defend it by saying Antrim and Kerry were featured in the Joe McDonagh Cup Final promo the week before. But if you're going to allow the same teams into two competitions, stands to reason they should be represented at events to promote both competitions too."
The Joe McDonagh final is to be paired with U20 final next year. If it's scheduled for 2 weeks before the preliminary quarter-finals, the McDonagh finalists will have a fairer build up. One would hope they will also be included in the promo event.
If Kerry win the McDonagh, Munster should have 6 teams and Leinster should have 5 teams. If any other county wins the McDonagh Cup, Munster should have 5 teams and Leinster should have 6 teams. This is the straightforward solution. So straightforward, it probably wouldn't be allowed because is it not convoluted enough!
From a Kerry point of view, firstly it would be fantastic to win the McDonagh after so much final heartache. Secondly, being in a 6 team Munster Championship will be bruising. After a year, lessons learned can be taken on board and a return to McDonagh be accepted.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8773 - 20/10/2022 17:50:00    2444837

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The Joe McDonagh final is to be paired with U20 final next year. If it's scheduled for 2 weeks before the preliminary quarter-finals, the McDonagh finalists will have a fairer build up. One would hope they will also be included in the promo event.
If Kerry win the McDonagh, Munster should have 6 teams and Leinster should have 5 teams. If any other county wins the McDonagh Cup, Munster should have 5 teams and Leinster should have 6 teams. This is the straightforward solution. So straightforward, it probably wouldn't be allowed because is it not convoluted enough!
From a Kerry point of view, firstly it would be fantastic to win the McDonagh after so much final heartache. Secondly, being in a 6 team Munster Championship will be bruising. After a year, lessons learned can be taken on board and a return to McDonagh be accepted."
"If Kerry win the McDonagh, Munster should have 6 teams and Leinster should have 5 teams. If any other county wins the McDonagh Cup, Munster should have 5 teams and Leinster should have 6 teams. This is the straightforward solution. So straightforward, it probably wouldn't be allowed because is it not convoluted enough!"

Straightforward solution? What if Leinster wants to continue with 6 teams? Afterall, why should they change something that's working fine for them, for the sake of Munster?

Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 2754 - 20/10/2022 20:19:03    2444856

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Replying To Cockney_Cat:  ""If Kerry win the McDonagh, Munster should have 6 teams and Leinster should have 5 teams. If any other county wins the McDonagh Cup, Munster should have 5 teams and Leinster should have 6 teams. This is the straightforward solution. So straightforward, it probably wouldn't be allowed because is it not convoluted enough!"

Straightforward solution? What if Leinster wants to continue with 6 teams? Afterall, why should they change something that's working fine for them, for the sake of Munster?"
That was my point earlier in the thread too. 6 teams in Leinster means everyone has something to play for. 5 teams mean it's nearly a foregone conclusion who gets relegated.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 15673 - 21/10/2022 10:25:29    2444886

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Replying To Cockney_Cat:  ""If Kerry win the McDonagh, Munster should have 6 teams and Leinster should have 5 teams. If any other county wins the McDonagh Cup, Munster should have 5 teams and Leinster should have 6 teams. This is the straightforward solution. So straightforward, it probably wouldn't be allowed because is it not convoluted enough!"

Straightforward solution? What if Leinster wants to continue with 6 teams? Afterall, why should they change something that's working fine for them, for the sake of Munster?"
It's a very tricky situation for Kerry and Munster.

Kerry hurling since 2015 has really jumped up the levels at club and county levels and has benefitted by great structures put in place in schools and clubs and backing from the Kerry County board.

The problem now is finding a level for Kerry if they do finally win the Joe McDonagh in 2023, which I think they will.

Past hurler (None) - Posts: 922 - 21/10/2022 15:03:26    2444945

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Replying To Cockney_Cat:  ""If Kerry win the McDonagh, Munster should have 6 teams and Leinster should have 5 teams. If any other county wins the McDonagh Cup, Munster should have 5 teams and Leinster should have 6 teams. This is the straightforward solution. So straightforward, it probably wouldn't be allowed because is it not convoluted enough!"

Straightforward solution? What if Leinster wants to continue with 6 teams? Afterall, why should they change something that's working fine for them, for the sake of Munster?"
Laois finished 6th in Leinster this year. They should have been relegated no matter whether it was Antrim or Kerry that won the McDonagh.
If Kerry had won the McDonagh, Kerry should have gone into Munster as the 6th team. The 5 Leinster teams then would have a year free of relegation for a change.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8773 - 21/10/2022 17:29:59    2444962

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Replying To Viking66:  "That was my point earlier in the thread too. 6 teams in Leinster means everyone has something to play for. 5 teams mean it's nearly a foregone conclusion who gets relegated."
5 teams means that Leinster are exempt from relegation for a year. Whichever province has 6 teams would have the relegation spot for that year. The top 5 in all provinces would retain their provincial status.
There's a good chance that Antrim could close the gap on the top 4 in Leinster.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8773 - 21/10/2022 17:32:26    2444963

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