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Kerry To Join The Munster Hurling Championship?

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There are a few reports suggesting the Munster Council are going to bring a motion to Congress. Kerry look set to go straight into the Munster Senior Hurling Championship if they win the Joe McDonagh Cup. Winning the Joe McDonagh Cup is a difficult challenge of course. Laois, Carlow, Offaly, Down and Kildare are all difficult opponents. Still, any change that offers Kerry the same potential reward as any other possible winner is to be welcomed.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8773 - 13/10/2022 17:24:44    2443885

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Replying To legendzxix:  "There are a few reports suggesting the Munster Council are going to bring a motion to Congress. Kerry look set to go straight into the Munster Senior Hurling Championship if they win the Joe McDonagh Cup. Winning the Joe McDonagh Cup is a difficult challenge of course. Laois, Carlow, Offaly, Down and Kildare are all difficult opponents. Still, any change that offers Kerry the same potential reward as any other possible winner is to be welcomed."
Definitely. Long overdue. Imagine the buzz around Tralee when the other teams came to town. Would have to be good for growing the game there.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 15673 - 13/10/2022 18:22:01    2443891

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Replying To legendzxix:  "There are a few reports suggesting the Munster Council are going to bring a motion to Congress. Kerry look set to go straight into the Munster Senior Hurling Championship if they win the Joe McDonagh Cup. Winning the Joe McDonagh Cup is a difficult challenge of course. Laois, Carlow, Offaly, Down and Kildare are all difficult opponents. Still, any change that offers Kerry the same potential reward as any other possible winner is to be welcomed."
If Kerry win the Joe McDonagh and qualify for the Munster Championship, will there be relegation to the JM for the county that finishes bottom of the new 6 County Munster Championship? Just like there is in the Leinster.
Also, if Kerry win the Joe McDonagh and enter Munster, will Leinster relegate a county to be replaced by the Joe McDonagh runner-up?

Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 2754 - 13/10/2022 20:29:46    2443908

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Replying To Cockney_Cat:  "If Kerry win the Joe McDonagh and qualify for the Munster Championship, will there be relegation to the JM for the county that finishes bottom of the new 6 County Munster Championship? Just like there is in the Leinster.
Also, if Kerry win the Joe McDonagh and enter Munster, will Leinster relegate a county to be replaced by the Joe McDonagh runner-up?"
On the first, I'd imagine so, and realistically there's a high chance it would be Kerry making the drop back down. But at least they would have had the chance to play the other Munster counties in senior championship.

On the second, why would the runners up of the Joe McDonagh be promoted that year, when runners up have never been promoted before?

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2856 - 14/10/2022 09:59:11    2443939

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "On the first, I'd imagine so, and realistically there's a high chance it would be Kerry making the drop back down. But at least they would have had the chance to play the other Munster counties in senior championship.

On the second, why would the runners up of the Joe McDonagh be promoted that year, when runners up have never been promoted before?"
Yes, runners up haven't been promoted before. I could have worded it better.
Leinster have a system of promotion and relegation with the Joe McDonagh. If Kerry win the JM next year and play in Munster in 2024, does the team finishing bottom in Leinster in 2023 get relegated, leaving Leinster with a 5 county championship in 2024? Or will there no relegation from Leinster?
And who gets relegated at the end of the provincial championships in 2024, the team bottom in Munster or Leinster?
I prefer a 6 county championship to a 5 county one. It would a shame if a county like Carlow or Laois were to lose a close game against Kerry in the JM final next year, and be unable to replace the relegated team from a now 5 County Leinster championship.

Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 2754 - 14/10/2022 11:18:26    2443950

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Replying To Cockney_Cat:  "Yes, runners up haven't been promoted before. I could have worded it better.
Leinster have a system of promotion and relegation with the Joe McDonagh. If Kerry win the JM next year and play in Munster in 2024, does the team finishing bottom in Leinster in 2023 get relegated, leaving Leinster with a 5 county championship in 2024? Or will there no relegation from Leinster?
And who gets relegated at the end of the provincial championships in 2024, the team bottom in Munster or Leinster?
I prefer a 6 county championship to a 5 county one. It would a shame if a county like Carlow or Laois were to lose a close game against Kerry in the JM final next year, and be unable to replace the relegated team from a now 5 County Leinster championship."
I see now what you mean. I presume that would all become clear in whatever rules proposal would be brought. For what it's worth, some of my thoughts:

- If Kerry win the McDonagh Cup, then there'd be no relegation from Leinster that year, as a Leinster team hasn't earned the right to be promoted. Same six teams therefore compete again in Leinster the following year.
- Your point about a team like Carlow or Laois therefore doesn't arise, since Leinster remains at six counties, so Carlow/Laois (for example) aren't being omitted from a five-team championship.
- Any argument that they should be promoted anyway as runners-up is moot unless you also argue that Kerry should be promoted any year they happen to be runners-up. Otherwise, you're back to unequal treatment of the provinces.
- As regards relegation the following year, logical thing would seem to be to decree that the bottom team in whatever championship the McDonagh Cup winners have been promoted into should be relegated. So if Kerry go into the Munster championship, the bottom Munster team at the end of that campaign (maybe Kerry, maybe not) are relegated.

But here's where it gets messy. If Kerry are in the Munster Championship, then a Leinster Championship is guaranteed to win the McDonagh Cup that year. How do you allow for promotion there?

Do they have to go to Munster, to replace whoever's been relegated from that Championship? Does Leinster become a seven-team championship the following year, and therefore take extra time to complete? Or do you relegate a Leinster team as well as a Munster team that year, so that two go down, but only one goes up?

Devil is in the detail......

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2856 - 14/10/2022 12:40:18    2443960

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The fairest solution is that the McDonagh winner determines the province with 6 teams. Whoever finishes 6th in the 6 team provincial championship should be relegated. If Kerry win the McDonagh Cup, the 5 teams in the Leinster Championship can enjoy a year free from the threat of relegation.
The McDonagh winner essentially determines the 11th team in the provincial championships. It seems fair that the 11th team would take the free spot in their provincial championship.
If Kerry had won the McDonagh this year, the fairest solution was for Laois to be relegated and Kerry to join Munster. Westmeath could enjoy 2023 then as part of a 5 team Leinster Championship without relegation. Kerry would be rank outsiders of course in a 6 team Munster Championship. The year of tough hurling would be more beneficial than 5 years in the McDonagh Cup. If Kerry finish 6th in Munster, I'm sure they'll take their relegation medicine and Leinster would expand to 6 in the following year.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8773 - 15/10/2022 08:38:23    2444016

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This situation is much like New York in the championship. The GAA make a plan in the hope it'll never happen. When New York qualifyed for the Ulster hurling final there was nothing in place for if New York did actually qualify.

In this case there was always a chance Kerry would win the Joe McDonagh so why it wasn't better planned I don't know.

oneoff (UK) - Posts: 1617 - 17/10/2022 13:33:03    2444320

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The fairest solution is that the McDonagh winner determines the province with 6 teams. Whoever finishes 6th in the 6 team provincial championship should be relegated. If Kerry win the McDonagh Cup, the 5 teams in the Leinster Championship can enjoy a year free from the threat of relegation.
The McDonagh winner essentially determines the 11th team in the provincial championships. It seems fair that the 11th team would take the free spot in their provincial championship.
If Kerry had won the McDonagh this year, the fairest solution was for Laois to be relegated and Kerry to join Munster. Westmeath could enjoy 2023 then as part of a 5 team Leinster Championship without relegation. Kerry would be rank outsiders of course in a 6 team Munster Championship. The year of tough hurling would be more beneficial than 5 years in the McDonagh Cup. If Kerry finish 6th in Munster, I'm sure they'll take their relegation medicine and Leinster would expand to 6 in the following year."
So basically you're saying that if Kerry win the McDonagh Cup, the bottom Leinster Championship team of that year is relegated anyway, with Leinster becoming a five-team championship for the following year.

Makes sense from one point of view but now your likely issue is getting that approved. It makes it tougher on potential Leinster Championship teams like Laois, Offaly, Carlow, Westmeath and Antrim, because instead of there being two of them in the Championship each year, there could be years with only one of them there.

So all those are likely to vote against it. The stronger Leinster teams could vote against it too, if they feel the extra match in the provincial championship is beneficial. And there's a chance too that other Ulster counties would vote the same way as Antrim.

These are the realities of how these things work...

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2856 - 17/10/2022 13:53:20    2444330

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "So basically you're saying that if Kerry win the McDonagh Cup, the bottom Leinster Championship team of that year is relegated anyway, with Leinster becoming a five-team championship for the following year.

Makes sense from one point of view but now your likely issue is getting that approved. It makes it tougher on potential Leinster Championship teams like Laois, Offaly, Carlow, Westmeath and Antrim, because instead of there being two of them in the Championship each year, there could be years with only one of them there.

So all those are likely to vote against it. The stronger Leinster teams could vote against it too, if they feel the extra match in the provincial championship is beneficial. And there's a chance too that other Ulster counties would vote the same way as Antrim.

These are the realities of how these things work..."
I was thinking along the same lines regarding Leinster. One solution would be if Kerry qualify for Munster, let them stay in it for say 3 years, with no relegation. Leinster could stay with 6 teams (no relegation first year when Kerry win JM, or a play-off between the bottom team in Leinster and the runner-up against Kerry in the JM) with promotion and relegation as usual. As you suggest, there is no way Leinster should, or would compromise their own competition for the benefit of Munster. The whole set up could be reviewed again in 3 years time, and if Munter want rid of Kerry again, we could return to the status quo.

Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 2754 - 17/10/2022 16:12:52    2444370

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "So basically you're saying that if Kerry win the McDonagh Cup, the bottom Leinster Championship team of that year is relegated anyway, with Leinster becoming a five-team championship for the following year.

Makes sense from one point of view but now your likely issue is getting that approved. It makes it tougher on potential Leinster Championship teams like Laois, Offaly, Carlow, Westmeath and Antrim, because instead of there being two of them in the Championship each year, there could be years with only one of them there.

So all those are likely to vote against it. The stronger Leinster teams could vote against it too, if they feel the extra match in the provincial championship is beneficial. And there's a chance too that other Ulster counties would vote the same way as Antrim.

These are the realities of how these things work..."
If Westmeath are in a 5 team Leinster Championship, sure it'll be tough but what can one do when trying to give fairness for everyone?
If there is a concern that Westmeath won't have a winnable game in that scenario, the 5th placed Leinster team could playoff against the 6th team in Munster to decide who is relegated.
It would make a mockery of the relegation system again however. If the top 5 in all provinces are to be treated the same, it is fair that whoever finishes 6th in a 6 team provincial championship is relegated.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8773 - 17/10/2022 20:29:44    2444421

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The fairest solution is that the McDonagh winner determines the province with 6 teams. Whoever finishes 6th in the 6 team provincial championship should be relegated. If Kerry win the McDonagh Cup, the 5 teams in the Leinster Championship can enjoy a year free from the threat of relegation.
The McDonagh winner essentially determines the 11th team in the provincial championships. It seems fair that the 11th team would take the free spot in their provincial championship.
If Kerry had won the McDonagh this year, the fairest solution was for Laois to be relegated and Kerry to join Munster. Westmeath could enjoy 2023 then as part of a 5 team Leinster Championship without relegation. Kerry would be rank outsiders of course in a 6 team Munster Championship. The year of tough hurling would be more beneficial than 5 years in the McDonagh Cup. If Kerry finish 6th in Munster, I'm sure they'll take their relegation medicine and Leinster would expand to 6 in the following year."
That makes a lot of sense. It would likely mean that Kerry would be relegated back down the following year with a 6th team promoted but back to the Leinster championship. It's a fair solution.

The problem is what if Kerry don't finish last. The "fair" solution here would be to relegate say Waterford.

Fairer still would be when there are 6 teams in Munster for the bottom team in Munster and Leinster to playoff for the relegation place giving the bottom team in Munster an extra chance to stay up.

In Kerry's case - they mightn't be able to get anything off any of the other Munster teams but could certainly give Westmeath or Antrim a game.

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 437 - 17/10/2022 20:40:30    2444424

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Replying To brianb:  "That makes a lot of sense. It would likely mean that Kerry would be relegated back down the following year with a 6th team promoted but back to the Leinster championship. It's a fair solution.

The problem is what if Kerry don't finish last. The "fair" solution here would be to relegate say Waterford.

Fairer still would be when there are 6 teams in Munster for the bottom team in Munster and Leinster to playoff for the relegation place giving the bottom team in Munster an extra chance to stay up.

In Kerry's case - they mightn't be able to get anything off any of the other Munster teams but could certainly give Westmeath or Antrim a game."
Don't think myself there'd be anything unfair in relegating Waterford or any other Munster team if they finished bottom of a six-team Munster Championship, with Kerry finishing above them.

It'd be hugely surprising and a major shock to the system for that county all right, but to call it "unfair" would be a bit of a jump from that again.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2856 - 17/10/2022 21:57:26    2444436

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If Kerry cause the shock of the century and finish 5th in a 6 team Munster Championship, the 6th tram should take their medicine of relegation.
Otherwise the All-Ireland championship should become two even groups of 6.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8773 - 17/10/2022 22:04:52    2444438

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "So basically you're saying that if Kerry win the McDonagh Cup, the bottom Leinster Championship team of that year is relegated anyway, with Leinster becoming a five-team championship for the following year.

Makes sense from one point of view but now your likely issue is getting that approved. It makes it tougher on potential Leinster Championship teams like Laois, Offaly, Carlow, Westmeath and Antrim, because instead of there being two of them in the Championship each year, there could be years with only one of them there.

So all those are likely to vote against it. The stronger Leinster teams could vote against it too, if they feel the extra match in the provincial championship is beneficial. And there's a chance too that other Ulster counties would vote the same way as Antrim.

These are the realities of how these things work..."
So why not bump up Kerry for a fixed minimum time period to see if it improves them and leave 6 teams in Leinster?

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 15673 - 18/10/2022 07:50:52    2444442

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "Don't think myself there'd be anything unfair in relegating Waterford or any other Munster team if they finished bottom of a six-team Munster Championship, with Kerry finishing above them.

It'd be hugely surprising and a major shock to the system for that county all right, but to call it "unfair" would be a bit of a jump from that again."
I don't think there'd be anything overly unfair in that either. I guess we want the best counties playing Liam McCarthy. Let's imagine that Kerry's hurling development continues - you could end up with 6 of the top 10 playing in Munster - the 11th team gets relegated; could you say for sure that that county would be a Munster or a Leinster county?

If Kerry get promoted and are good enough to run the other Munster Counties close might there be good enough to beat the least performing Leinster county? Best way to find out is a playoff.

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 437 - 18/10/2022 11:08:18    2444459

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If Munster and Leinster are both 6 teams upon Kerry winning a McDonagh, the McDonagh could run with 5 teams for a year. Both 6th placed teams would have to be relegated the year after.
Ideally the McDonagh should remain 6 teams however. It maintains a fixed level. Laois will add a lot to the McDonagh next year.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8773 - 18/10/2022 16:15:35    2444520

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I think the suggestion by Pikeman96 above was that basically at the end of every year, you:
1) relegate the bottom team in whichever of the Leinster or Munster Championship has six teams, and
2) promote the McDonagh Cup winners into Munster (if they're from Munster) or Leinster (if they're not), leaving no relegation from the five-team championship. I like it. Beats Kerry facing the insult of a playoff to get promoted whereas other teams would not.

Tacaí Liatroma (Leitrim) - Posts: 1168 - 18/10/2022 20:02:58    2444547

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Say Kerry finish 6th in Munster let them play of against the 6th place team in the Leinster competition to see who goes down.
Only Kerry can qualify for Munster as a 6th team and all others would be placed into Leinster.

bountyboy22 (USA) - Posts: 44 - 19/10/2022 09:42:52    2444566

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Its actually really straightforward.

If Kerry win the Joe McDonagh, the following year there should be 6 in Munster and 5 in Leinster. If in the following year a Leinster team wins the Joe McDonagh there should be 5 in Munster and 6 in Leinster.
Whichever province has 6 teams in it in any given year, the bottom team gets relegated.

Onfor15 (Wexford) - Posts: 533 - 19/10/2022 10:13:27    2444568

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