National Forum

Upcoming Special Congress

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Hurling has retained the provincial championships and All-Ireland Series.
4/6 Munster teams, 4/6 Connaught teams, 8/9 Ulster teams and 8/11 Leinster teams competing in their provincial championships seems fair."
There's a provincial structure in hurling in name only.

The reality of the hurling structure is that it's the Munster 5 championship and everybody else championship.

This contrived format kind of works for them (for now), I just don't think that it transfers over to football well at all really.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3640 - 10/11/2021 12:18:28    2389001

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Replying To Whammo86:  "There's a provincial structure in hurling in name only.

The reality of the hurling structure is that it's the Munster 5 championship and everybody else championship.

This contrived format kind of works for them (for now), I just don't think that it transfers over to football well at all really."
It does transfer in the format I've outlined. After 7 league games and 3 championship round robin games, the teams exiting the championship at that stage can't have many complaints.

Munster: Kerry, Cork, Tipperary, Clare.
Connaught: Mayo, Galway, Roscommon, Sligo.
Ulster-1: Tyrone, Armagh, Down, Fermanagh.
Ulster-2: Monaghan, Donegal, Cavan, Derry.
Leinster-1: Dublin, Westmeath, Laois, Wicklow.
Leinster-2: Kildare, Meath, Offaly, Longford.

Tailteann Cup;
Connaught/Munster: Limerick, Leitrim, Waterford, London.
Leinster/Ulster: Antrim, Wexford, Louth, Carlow.

Promote the top 2 from each Tailteann Cup group, but at a limit of 1 from the same province.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 6335 - 10/11/2021 16:55:00    2389051

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The special Congress was held some 3 weeks ago. The proposal did not get through. Regardless of the championship structure, the stronger counties will come out on top.

MicktheMiller (Offaly) - Posts: 403 - 10/11/2021 17:26:16    2389053

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Replying To MicktheMiller:  "The special Congress was held some 3 weeks ago. The proposal did not get through. Regardless of the championship structure, the stronger counties will come out on top."
As always.
Sport is very unfair alright!!

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 79 - 10/11/2021 19:14:02    2389058

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Replying To Whammo86:  "There's a provincial structure in hurling in name only.

The reality of the hurling structure is that it's the Munster 5 championship and everybody else championship.

This contrived format kind of works for them (for now), I just don't think that it transfers over to football well at all really."
Equally contrived, but could work -
Ulster 9 and the Rest 9;. or
Ulster 5 and the Rest 2x5.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2162 - 10/11/2021 19:49:31    2389062

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Replying To legendzxix:  "It does transfer in the format I've outlined. After 7 league games and 3 championship round robin games, the teams exiting the championship at that stage can't have many complaints.

Munster: Kerry, Cork, Tipperary, Clare.
Connaught: Mayo, Galway, Roscommon, Sligo.
Ulster-1: Tyrone, Armagh, Down, Fermanagh.
Ulster-2: Monaghan, Donegal, Cavan, Derry.
Leinster-1: Dublin, Westmeath, Laois, Wicklow.
Leinster-2: Kildare, Meath, Offaly, Longford.

Tailteann Cup;
Connaught/Munster: Limerick, Leitrim, Waterford, London.
Leinster/Ulster: Antrim, Wexford, Louth, Carlow.

Promote the top 2 from each Tailteann Cup group, but at a limit of 1 from the same province."
People don't want the provincials to be the basis for the All Ireland or at least way less so than now. If there's anything clear coming out of the recent process it's that.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3640 - 11/11/2021 07:01:34    2389076

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Replying To Whammo86:  "People don't want the provincials to be the basis for the All Ireland or at least way less so than now. If there's anything clear coming out of the recent process it's that."
People want change. The current provincial system can be setup more fairly.
In the McGuinness/Kelly suggestion of 16 teams, the Round of 16 could be played over 2 games home and away, like the International Series was played. It would give more provincial grounds an All-Ireland home game before the quarter-finals onwards in Croke Park. Dublin could play their quarter-finals alternating home and away in the interest of some fairness.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 6335 - 11/11/2021 09:39:39    2389087

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Replying To omahant:  "Equally contrived, but could work -
Ulster 9 and the Rest 9;. or
Ulster 5 and the Rest 2x5."
Contrived is bad. It works in the short term but things change.

If you were looking at 40 years ago you'd probably have had a Leinster championship plus all the others combined. Who knows what that would have done to Ulster football.

The easiest thing is to have Provincials, have a mechanism for guaranteed participation in the All Ireland for provincial champions but have the All Ireland primarily organised on a national level.

Most people without a vested interest in the provincial championships themselves would agree that the championship is much more fair on organised at a National level.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3640 - 11/11/2021 09:44:50    2389088

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Contrived is bad. It works in the short term but things change.

If you were looking at 40 years ago you'd probably have had a Leinster championship plus all the others combined. Who knows what that would have done to Ulster football.

The easiest thing is to have Provincials, have a mechanism for guaranteed participation in the All Ireland for provincial champions but have the All Ireland primarily organised on a national level.

Most people without a vested interest in the provincial championships themselves would agree that the championship is much more fair on organised at a National level."
Special Congress 2019 took the first step towards something like that. The pandemic championships just haven't been able to give it a run out.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 6335 - 11/11/2021 11:56:51    2389103

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Contrived is bad. It works in the short term but things change.

If you were looking at 40 years ago you'd probably have had a Leinster championship plus all the others combined. Who knows what that would have done to Ulster football.

The easiest thing is to have Provincials, have a mechanism for guaranteed participation in the All Ireland for provincial champions but have the All Ireland primarily organised on a national level.

Most people without a vested interest in the provincial championships themselves would agree that the championship is much more fair on organised at a National level."
I think it's best to have a design that has staying power for a good few years. But as you say, circumstances can change which would then call for a new model. Example - Lein SHC group of 5 (now 6) currently seems to work, but who knows in the future - would it have worked in the late noughties with the Kilk domination?

If hypothetically, Lein SHC was as uncompetitive as the current Lein SFC, it brings in to question the validity/fairness of having all Muns teams compete against each other in their own 'tough' group (adding weight to your National argument).

Even when systems work (e.g. Champions League), there is something to be said for 'refreshing' the competition with a new set up (provided it's for the better).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2162 - 12/11/2021 16:44:56    2389217

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- Keep KO Provs with prior year 8 Finalists getting SF byes and all others play for 4 QF berths in each respective Prov (for 2 other SF berths in each).
- 4 Champs get Tier 1 AI Series/playoff berths, if not qualified from AIC league phase below (or get a high AIC seeding if qualifying from both).

- Merge NFL Divs 1&2/ Top 16 teams into balanced, equally-ranked, mixed-quality groups instead (via a draw, or fixed with the 1st, 4th, 5th & 8th ranked from both divisions to Group 1A).
- Two groups of 8 could facilitate either round robins (7 games per team); or an '8v8 inter-group, 1A v 1B phase' (8 games, 4 at home/ 4 away); or, three groups of 5, 5 & 6 could allow for 5-team round robins, with 'the 6 playing the other 10' in the league phase (10 games).
- The top 8 in a combined 16-team table advance to "2021 Liam McCarthy Cup 'last 8'/Aussie AFL-style playoffs".
- Two chance pairings are 1v4 & 2v3 (2 winners to AI SFs, 2 losers to KO QFs).
- KO pairings are 5v8 & 6v7 (2 winners to QFs, 2 losers eliminated).

- Merge Divs 3&4/ Bottom 16 teams into balanced, equally-ranked mixed-quality groups also.
- These teams should strive to earn promotion from the Tier 2 tournament in the current year (if not Prov Champs).
- For mouthwatering Tier 2/ 'Mid 16' playoffs, merge the top 8 from a combined 16-team Div 2 table (after 7, 8 or 10-game league phase), with the bottom 8 in Div 1.
- The Tier 2 playoff format could follow the Sam Maguire Cup 'last 16' model of 2017 & 2022 (8 teams with two chances).
- Two chance pairings are 9v20, 10v19, 11v18 & 12v17 (4 winners host KO QFs, 4 losers host 'last 12' ties).
- KO pairings are 13v24, 14v23, 15v22 & 16v21 (4 winners play away in the 'last 12').
- Tier 2 QF 8 earn or retain Div 1/ Top 16 league phase status for the following year.
- The Div 2 bottom 8 could also participate in a stand-alone Tier 2 KO Shield, if interested (with no promotion).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2162 - 12/11/2021 17:06:08    2389221

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I wonder will they tweak proposal B or will they come back with something totally different?

If it took them 2 years to come up with proposals A and B i don't fancy them having something new ready for Februarys Congress.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 13949 - 13/11/2021 10:41:03    2389255

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Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "I wonder will they tweak proposal B or will they come back with something totally different?

If it took them 2 years to come up with proposals A and B i don't fancy them having something new ready for Februarys Congress."
Bin Option B. It was very poor. Take the time needed and come back with a proposal fir a structure that does the league, the championship and the players justice.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 5707 - 13/11/2021 14:08:06    2389270

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Replying To Greengrass:  "Bin Option B. It was very poor. Take the time needed and come back with a proposal fir a structure that does the league, the championship and the players justice."
Any suggestions from your good self?

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 79 - 13/11/2021 14:13:55    2389271

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Replying To Greengrass:  "Bin Option B. It was very poor. Take the time needed and come back with a proposal fir a structure that does the league, the championship and the players justice."
How do you explain it took two years to come with something so poor? There were some smart people on the Committee - what was it then - politics entrapment? I think it was simply laziness.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2162 - 13/11/2021 14:23:36    2389273

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "Any suggestions from your good self?"
How is mine?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2162 - 13/11/2021 14:24:22    2389274

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Replying To omahant:  "How is mine?"
Looks awful complicated.

Play NFL and Provincials in same time period.
Top 2 Div 1 straight to Qtr Finals
Prov Winners, last year's Tailteann winners and go down the NFL till you get 12 reams in Prelim Round.
6 winners to Qtr Finals.
Tailteann for D3, D4 teams plus NY.

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 79 - 13/11/2021 16:00:34    2389282

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Replying To Greengrass:  "Bin Option B. It was very poor. Take the time needed and come back with a proposal fir a structure that does the league, the championship and the players justice."
Absolutely, I'd hope they'll take their time and get something right for everyone, it's just they mentioned having something ready to go for Februarys Congress.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 13949 - 14/11/2021 10:08:27    2389346

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Replying To omahant:  "How do you explain it took two years to come with something so poor? There were some smart people on the Committee - what was it then - politics entrapment? I think it was simply laziness."
What I'd like to know is how did it take 3-4 lads 2 years to come up with proposals A and B, we're they getting paid by the hour?

I can't see the good in mashing the league and championship together, the league is a great competition already, its like they're coupling the championship to the league to keep it a float.

For me why not keep the league as is and use it to seed teams for a champions league style competition, with 8 groups of 4, each team plays home and away giving everyone 6 group games with the top 2 teams in each group going on to play for Sam Maguire and the bottom 2 teams going on to battle it out for the Tailteann cup, every team is gaurenteed 7 championship games and the winners 10 games.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 13949 - 14/11/2021 10:21:50    2389349

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Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "What I'd like to know is how did it take 3-4 lads 2 years to come up with proposals A and B, we're they getting paid by the hour?

I can't see the good in mashing the league and championship together, the league is a great competition already, its like they're coupling the championship to the league to keep it a float.

For me why not keep the league as is and use it to seed teams for a champions league style competition, with 8 groups of 4, each team plays home and away giving everyone 6 group games with the top 2 teams in each group going on to play for Sam Maguire and the bottom 2 teams going on to battle it out for the Tailteann cup, every team is gaurenteed 7 championship games and the winners 10 games."
I'd say how it went was:

The league is a great fair competition that makes sense, is popular with everybody, where teams play at their own level and can measure their relative progress more easily.

That is a better system than our current championship.

Then they ran into bother because they can't have an All Ireland championship with only 8 teams in it.

Then they started messing around with it to give everyone a shot and just messed it all up.

The champions league style solution is not good though either. There's going to be too many bad matches in that competition and the Tailteann cup is solely a losers competition.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3640 - 14/11/2021 11:02:41    2389351

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