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Ulster Keeping Gaelic Football Alive

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I don't think marketing really works.

It's hard to trick people into caring about something that they just don't.

A competition has prestige or it doesn't and I don't really think the GAA has the resources really to do a whole lot about that either."
I just think if there's more access to matches and analysis both on TV and online that you could build that interest up over time. Going by this thread alone there are plenty of examples of provincial pride amongst posters, there's definitely interest there if it recieves the right build up, who wouldn't want to see what happens between the best players in each province, its a competition with history and pride, I just think it was treated a lot more like a pre season friendly than a major playoff by the powers that be.

SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts: 2275 - 22/07/2021 21:03:00    2362992

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Replying To SaffronDon:  "I just think if there's more access to matches and analysis both on TV and online that you could build that interest up over time. Going by this thread alone there are plenty of examples of provincial pride amongst posters, there's definitely interest there if it recieves the right build up, who wouldn't want to see what happens between the best players in each province, its a competition with history and pride, I just think it was treated a lot more like a pre season friendly than a major playoff by the powers that be."
What nonsense.

seamusorinn (USA) - Posts: 201 - 23/07/2021 00:36:18    2363045

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I don't know about this.

I think to be able to compete teams need to be getting a strong program of games in the main competition.

I don't like the qualifiers much but straight knockout particularly with the provincial imbalance isn't great either.

One thing though was that there is definitely added intensity to some of the fixtures knowing that's no second chance.

To generate excitement the stakes do need to be high. So any new system has to be maintain that element of peril."
Wham, you don't like much of my 'off the wall' stuff - how is this -

I propose a two-tier combined League-Championship structure that would provide all counties with a reasonable opportunity to succeed.

Tier 1 (Top 16 teams) is drawn into 3 groups of 5, 5 and 6 teams. With the 5-team groups playing separate round robins, and the 6-team group playing the other 10 teams, each team plays a 10-match schedule, 5 at home and 5 away.

For balanced groups, create ranked seeding pots (1 to 3) with team quantities of 4, 6 and 6, respectively - and draw 2 teams from pots 2 & 3 and at least 1 from pot 1 - to each of the 3 groups.

Top 8 in a combined 16-team, 10-match table, advance to Aussie AFL-style playoffs (also known as the 2017 C Ring Cup SHC format, excluding round 1).

Tier 2 (Lower 16 teams) is created with a similar structure.
4 up (Tier 2, SF 4) / 4 down (Tier 1, 13th-16th).

After the All-Ireland Championship is completed, the 2 highest-ranked teams from each Province contest respective stand-alone Provincial Finals.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2150 - 23/07/2021 02:39:08    2363052

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Replying To seamusorinn:  "What nonsense."
Yeah must be, we'll just show less matches and introduce kids to other sports with better access to games. I mean, what would we want to promote 2 exciting field sports for...

SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts: 2275 - 23/07/2021 09:45:27    2363071

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Replying To SaffronDon:  "Yeah must be, we'll just show less matches and introduce kids to other sports with better access to games. I mean, what would we want to promote 2 exciting field sports for..."
If intercounty is starting for real in March say, maybe you could run it at the start of February.

I don't know though if county players or managers would be that enthused about potential injuries in advance of the season starting. The players would have their conditioning planned out at that stage too. It just feels like a distraction that there wasn't a whole lot of appetite for.

Alternatively if it were something that was played around around All Ireland semifinal time? Made up of players not reaching the All Ireland quarterfinals they get to play for a combined team. More players get access to a higher level of competition. They're not expected back with their clubs anyway.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3625 - 23/07/2021 10:42:59    2363098

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Replying To omahant:  "Wham, you don't like much of my 'off the wall' stuff - how is this -

I propose a two-tier combined League-Championship structure that would provide all counties with a reasonable opportunity to succeed.

Tier 1 (Top 16 teams) is drawn into 3 groups of 5, 5 and 6 teams. With the 5-team groups playing separate round robins, and the 6-team group playing the other 10 teams, each team plays a 10-match schedule, 5 at home and 5 away.

For balanced groups, create ranked seeding pots (1 to 3) with team quantities of 4, 6 and 6, respectively - and draw 2 teams from pots 2 & 3 and at least 1 from pot 1 - to each of the 3 groups.

Top 8 in a combined 16-team, 10-match table, advance to Aussie AFL-style playoffs (also known as the 2017 C Ring Cup SHC format, excluding round 1).

Tier 2 (Lower 16 teams) is created with a similar structure.
4 up (Tier 2, SF 4) / 4 down (Tier 1, 13th-16th).

After the All-Ireland Championship is completed, the 2 highest-ranked teams from each Province contest respective stand-alone Provincial Finals."
I've a few things I don't like about it.

I think the split into 3 groups is unnecessary.

I like playoffs being single elimination.

If you're crowning provincial champions I think the current system is best anyway.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3625 - 23/07/2021 10:44:43    2363100

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I've a few things I don't like about it.

I think the split into 3 groups is unnecessary.

I like playoffs being single elimination.

If you're crowning provincial champions I think the current system is best anyway."
If a Provincial final is decoupled from the main championship, then they whole competition could be.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3625 - 23/07/2021 11:42:10    2363123

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Replying To Whammo86:  "If a Provincial final is decoupled from the main championship, then they whole competition could be."
The 3 groups are just for fixtures to keep the match count down at 10 - in lieu of a full coverage 15-match round robin.

The AFL 2nd chance for the top 4 better scales the rewards among the top 8 based on a team's placing.

I keep Prov Finals as they can be great games and it keeps with tradition - I think the rivalries would be maintained and teams would care about winning the medal, even with decoupling from AIC - I put them after the AIC, as this gives 8 teams a good day to look forward to, even after the AIC field whittles down to the final 2.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2150 - 23/07/2021 16:46:08    2363222

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Replying To omahant:  "The 3 groups are just for fixtures to keep the match count down at 10 - in lieu of a full coverage 15-match round robin.

The AFL 2nd chance for the top 4 better scales the rewards among the top 8 based on a team's placing.

I keep Prov Finals as they can be great games and it keeps with tradition - I think the rivalries would be maintained and teams would care about winning the medal, even with decoupling from AIC - I put them after the AIC, as this gives 8 teams a good day to look forward to, even after the AIC field whittles down to the final 2."
I still don't like them.

6 from 16 after 10 games is enough progressing.

I don't think you need to group teams to just give everyone a 10 game schedule.

I don't like that teams qualify for provincial finals based on a nationally organised first phase.

You've your problems then of what if there's only 2 from a province. One of the stronger reasons to keep the Provincials at all is to give smaller counties exposure to a big game. You'd be removing that chance.

You don't really need to either. In the calendar the GAA is setting aside for intercounty action it's possible for any given team to play 18 rounds of fixtures. You could have 4 rounds of Provincial competition. 10 rounds of All Ireland "league phase" and still finish with playoffs.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3625 - 23/07/2021 18:02:51    2363237

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KO 8 of 16 - You recently had a good 3 -tier idea with 12, 10 & 10 teams. You had a KO 6 in each, more than the teams, but now only half is too many.

Grouping for 10 matches -. The Champions League 2024 will have seeding pots like mine, with a pot 1 playing 2 opponents from pots 1 & 4 and 3 from pots 2 & 3. While it's not clear how they will allocate opponents in those balanced spread of games, it will have to be systemic - my 'groups' (needs a new term, say bucket) is one organized method to accomplish the goal.

Prov Finals - World Cup Finals and European Rugby use a qualifier system to determine a subset of highest ranked teams to take part in those Finals - there is no fixed quantity as to who should make it (24, 32, 48) - I happened to pick 2.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2150 - 24/07/2021 02:04:35    2363336

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Replying To omahant:  "KO 8 of 16 - You recently had a good 3 -tier idea with 12, 10 & 10 teams. You had a KO 6 in each, more than the teams, but now only half is too many.

Grouping for 10 matches -. The Champions League 2024 will have seeding pots like mine, with a pot 1 playing 2 opponents from pots 1 & 4 and 3 from pots 2 & 3. While it's not clear how they will allocate opponents in those balanced spread of games, it will have to be systemic - my 'groups' (needs a new term, say bucket) is one organized method to accomplish the goal.

Prov Finals - World Cup Finals and European Rugby use a qualifier system to determine a subset of highest ranked teams to take part in those Finals - there is no fixed quantity as to who should make it (24, 32, 48) - I happened to pick 2."
Yeh that 12, 10, 10 are playing fewer games to get down to 6. To be honest it probably is my least favourite of any plan I've put together.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3625 - 24/07/2021 13:56:48    2363425

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I don't believe for one minute that rejigging the current structure or introducing new groupings or a two / three tiered system will change anything to make the weaker counties more competitive, it just won't there are too many counties in trouble and the problems are deep rooted.

Believe it or not it's the weaker counties that are keeping Gaelic football (and hurling) alive, self-explanatory.

supersub15 (Carlow) - Posts: 2466 - 24/07/2021 22:00:21    2363665

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Replying To supersub15:  "I don't believe for one minute that rejigging the current structure or introducing new groupings or a two / three tiered system will change anything to make the weaker counties more competitive, it just won't there are too many counties in trouble and the problems are deep rooted.

Believe it or not it's the weaker counties that are keeping Gaelic football (and hurling) alive, self-explanatory."
Just because an Offaly might not make it back to the top table In hurling is no reason to deny them a crack at winning the C Ring Cup (3rd tier). Let's give the football counties a chance to win at their own level as well - if they rise, great - if not, so be it.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2150 - 25/07/2021 04:38:17    2363724

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I've a few things I don't like about it.

I think the split into 3 groups is unnecessary.

I like playoffs being single elimination.

If you're crowning provincial champions I think the current system is best anyway."
Liam Mc Cup 2021 Last 8 is run on the AFL system - the non-Prov Finalists (Cork/Clare and Water/Galw) we're cracking Qualifiers to enter 2 AI KO QF slots. The winners Cork and Water had to work harder to get there compared to the Prov Finalists. All told, the Last 8 play 9 matches (incl Prov Finals) under the AFL system versus 7, if it was straight KO - and I'd rather have the additional serving of those 2 extra games (even in my Top 8 of 16 I had above).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2150 - 25/07/2021 04:58:54    2363725

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Replying To supersub15:  "I don't believe for one minute that rejigging the current structure or introducing new groupings or a two / three tiered system will change anything to make the weaker counties more competitive, it just won't there are too many counties in trouble and the problems are deep rooted.

Believe it or not it's the weaker counties that are keeping Gaelic football (and hurling) alive, self-explanatory."
I think it's about giving all counties a good program of games.

When I suggest 2 tiers or 3 (which I like a WHOLE LOT LESS) it's so that teams have more meaningful games.

Teams just below the challengers need to play games against those top teams to improve their level. They need to play games when they're not in contention for the championship but those games can't just be glorified friendlies or just phaff either. So you bring in a relegation system and there's more things to play for.

The second tier isn't really prestigious in it's own right but it's made prestigious as the entry point to the main competition.

The main competition could also be better than it is now and being a part of that becomes a goal in its own right.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3625 - 25/07/2021 13:53:04    2363817

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Replying To omahant:  "Liam Mc Cup 2021 Last 8 is run on the AFL system - the non-Prov Finalists (Cork/Clare and Water/Galw) we're cracking Qualifiers to enter 2 AI KO QF slots. The winners Cork and Water had to work harder to get there compared to the Prov Finalists. All told, the Last 8 play 9 matches (incl Prov Finals) under the AFL system versus 7, if it was straight KO - and I'd rather have the additional serving of those 2 extra games (even in my Top 8 of 16 I had above)."
Yeah, I don't especially like the hurling format either, in spite of it being quite popular.

I think 6 teams reaching playoffs works really well. Gives teams incentive to go for top spot in their group.

Unless the group stage is very lop-sided you're insuring the top 4 performing teams reach the semifinals and the top 2 performing teams hit the final. You can avoid too many repeat pairings. You could organise so that there'd be a max of 2 repeat pairings. If both 3rd placed teams beat 2nd placed teams then they play top of the other group to there's. So you only get a repeat semifinal pairing if a 2nd and 3rd place team from the same group win in the quarterfinals.

Yes there's fewer games but you've gotten more intensity out of the group phase to begin with.

The competition just moves more nicely to a climax in the single elimination system.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3625 - 25/07/2021 14:02:16    2363823

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The final is another knife-edge game, 50/50.
Monaghan DO look like they're on a mission though.
The prize is Kerry, who seem to have a bit of a mental thing about Tyrone (and Down) but they're shit hot this year and the Ulster final is going to be physically draining.

realdub (Dublin) - Posts: 8277 - 26/07/2021 09:58:35    2364183

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I don't think marketing really works.

It's hard to trick people into caring about something that they just don't.

A competition has prestige or it doesn't and I don't really think the GAA has the resources really to do a whole lot about that either."
The Railway Cup had prestige it used to draw crowds of 50k plus. It fizzled out because firstly it wasnt promoted at all, secondly it was deemed there were 2 many games for top players, thirdly some of the better counties didnt want their players getting injured between the league and championship and fourthly it was a cold wet time of year. If we play the league earlier, championship earlier with the AISFs being played mid July and Finals last weekend in July and 1st weekend in August, the Railway Cup could be played over 2 weekends in early to mid August in high summer before the club championships kick off. The provincial sides would have access to all but the all Ireland finalist panels for at least 2 or 3 weeks for group training.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 3301 - 27/07/2021 07:49:20    2364554

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