National Forum

Should There Be A Back Door For Football?

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Replying To foreveryoung:  "And Meath have won 6 of those AI titles since Cavan won its last one in 1952. Imagine, 70 years ago almost; the same length of time that Elizabeth has been the Queen of England."
Just a small technical correction there forever! There hasn't been a Queen of England since 1707 when that title came to an end with Queen Anne and the act of union with Scotland, ie, beginning of UK. From then on the country of England ceased to be a sovereign state as its sovereignty was taken over by and controlled by the UK since 1707 as it is to this day. With all this in mind Lizzys official title is Queen of the UK and head of all her other realms, territory's, and commonwealth. Just saying! Apparently to refer to her as Queen of England would be like referering to Mickey D as president of Dublin while we all know John Costello is :-) ! And before anybody accuses me of anything I just have a huge interest in history!

Onion_Sack (Dublin) - Posts: 123 - 13/04/2021 21:00:25    2337108

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Replying To wicklowsupport:  "The bigger question is, what type of championship will the GAA run when the pandemic is over. Super 8s, not working. Proposed second tier championship tried before, this is the third version with no changes so I don't see it working. Most weak counties will lose players when travel resumes. At least two provincial championship are a foregone conclusion. A straight knock out helped Tipperary and Cavan win a provincial title which probably wouldn't have happened in normal times. There are probably 4-5 teams capable of winning the All Ireland. No team in Leinster can compete for a Leinster, it seems due to Dublin being in the province. There needs to be some imaginative solution (thinking outside the box) in order to revive the football championship and while the back door offer something for a period of time, its time has passed. Like a number of posters have said, with the year that is in it, a complete open draw would be worth a shot but the GAA is a very conservative organisation and things don't change quick if at all."
Partly agree except the straight knockout didn't effect Tipp or Cavan. Can't call it a straight knockout if it's not open draw, it's anything but straight. Different amount of matches to get to the same semifinal. Down the line it has to be open draw, Dublin v Donegal in Ballybofey for a first round match. Take away back doors then if they want, at least it's fair.

Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 917 - 13/04/2021 22:08:41    2337114

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Replying To wicklowsupport:  "The bigger question is, what type of championship will the GAA run when the pandemic is over. Super 8s, not working. Proposed second tier championship tried before, this is the third version with no changes so I don't see it working. Most weak counties will lose players when travel resumes. At least two provincial championship are a foregone conclusion. A straight knock out helped Tipperary and Cavan win a provincial title which probably wouldn't have happened in normal times. There are probably 4-5 teams capable of winning the All Ireland. No team in Leinster can compete for a Leinster, it seems due to Dublin being in the province. There needs to be some imaginative solution (thinking outside the box) in order to revive the football championship and while the back door offer something for a period of time, its time has passed. Like a number of posters have said, with the year that is in it, a complete open draw would be worth a shot but the GAA is a very conservative organisation and things don't change quick if at all."
The provincial championships are straight knock championships. The point you make about Tipp and Cavan doesn't stand up to scrutiny. It's the All Ireland championship that has the back door. You're right when you say the Super 8s aren't working. They are not needed and contribute nothing.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 5672 - 13/04/2021 22:40:06    2337119

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Replying To Greengrass:  "The provincial championships are straight knock championships. The point you make about Tipp and Cavan doesn't stand up to scrutiny. It's the All Ireland championship that has the back door. You're right when you say the Super 8s aren't working. They are not needed and contribute nothing."
They are not needed and contribute nothing. Apart from millions to the GAA coffers, I thought everyone had realised by now that the Super 8's were nothing more than a money making racket. Sure we'll call them "Super" to make everyone feel important, classic case of blind loyalty.

AfricanGael (UK) - Posts: 1946 - 13/04/2021 23:31:30    2337121

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Replying To wicklowsupport:  "The bigger question is, what type of championship will the GAA run when the pandemic is over. Super 8s, not working. Proposed second tier championship tried before, this is the third version with no changes so I don't see it working. Most weak counties will lose players when travel resumes. At least two provincial championship are a foregone conclusion. A straight knock out helped Tipperary and Cavan win a provincial title which probably wouldn't have happened in normal times. There are probably 4-5 teams capable of winning the All Ireland. No team in Leinster can compete for a Leinster, it seems due to Dublin being in the province. There needs to be some imaginative solution (thinking outside the box) in order to revive the football championship and while the back door offer something for a period of time, its time has passed. Like a number of posters have said, with the year that is in it, a complete open draw would be worth a shot but the GAA is a very conservative organisation and things don't change quick if at all."
I'd try this -

1) Play usual 4 Uls/Lein Prelim Rd pairings.
2) Continue with 4 Confs of 8.
3) Each 8 played under 2017 C Ring Cup format (with Rds 1, 2a, 2b, 2QFs, 2SFs, Final).
4) Conf Rd 1 Open Draw.
5) 2 Rd 2b winners in each Conf relocate - one to each of 2 coastal neighbouring Confs.
6) Relocated teams kept apart in Conf QFs/SFs.
7) 4 Conf Champs to old-style AI SFs.

That's it !
Confs retain strong traditional Prov element, as 20 teams stay in their own Conf/Prov and 12 relocate (4 Prelim losers / 8 Rd 2b winners).
Rd 1 Open Draw may send some strong teams to Rd 2b and on to a neighbouring Conf QF to rebalance existing Prov composition.
Any AI Champ (incl those beaten) has to first win a Conf/Prov Final.

There could be real mischief here, if - Tyrone takes Dublin's Lein title north - or there's hurt in Kerry, as 'their' regional cup is taken out west by Mayo or Galway.

Certain regional international soccer tournaments have a history of inviting 'guest' teams [i.e. Copa America (South Amer) & Gold Cup (CONCACAF), with Japan & US having played in both.]

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2115 - 14/04/2021 06:32:08    2337133

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Replying To catch22:  "Hang on. There's no need to be smart like and actually answer the question. You could be debared for such brazenness."
Is this the Law Society, or King's Inn or something???

foreveryoung (USA) - Posts: 699 - 14/04/2021 10:26:20    2337143

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Replying To Saynothing:  "I'd have total faith in at least 5 teams from Ulster coming out of Navan with a win. Plus 3 from Connacht and 3 from Munster."
To be fair to the original poster, drawing a Meath team in Navan for a big championship match would be no easy task, except maybe for Dublin. There aren't a lot of counties who'd be jumping for joy at that draw. Now of course they'd be focused and many would fancy their chances at going to Navan and winning. However I couldn't see to many comfortable wins.

The point of the Meath poster is it would give the likes of Meath and Kildare something to aim for this season. Those two counties on their day would possibly win the Ulster competition this year; they wouldn't fear that challenge. With no backdoor it must be a nightmare being stuck in the same provincial competition as Dublin.

sam1884 (UK) - Posts: 847 - 14/04/2021 11:02:42    2337151

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Replying To sam1884:  "To be fair to the original poster, drawing a Meath team in Navan for a big championship match would be no easy task, except maybe for Dublin. There aren't a lot of counties who'd be jumping for joy at that draw. Now of course they'd be focused and many would fancy their chances at going to Navan and winning. However I couldn't see to many comfortable wins.

The point of the Meath poster is it would give the likes of Meath and Kildare something to aim for this season. Those two counties on their day would possibly win the Ulster competition this year; they wouldn't fear that challenge. With no backdoor it must be a nightmare being stuck in the same provincial competition as Dublin."
Exactly.
But you see common sense is hard to find on hs these days unfortunately.
Down could be playing Meath in navan this year. Over the past couple of years we have beat Armagh comfortably and we were robbed of a tap over free against Tyrone in navan 3 years ago. They found it extremely hard. Even in extra time to win.

royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 17787 - 14/04/2021 11:58:12    2337157

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Replying To sam1884:  "To be fair to the original poster, drawing a Meath team in Navan for a big championship match would be no easy task, except maybe for Dublin. There aren't a lot of counties who'd be jumping for joy at that draw. Now of course they'd be focused and many would fancy their chances at going to Navan and winning. However I couldn't see to many comfortable wins.

The point of the Meath poster is it would give the likes of Meath and Kildare something to aim for this season. Those two counties on their day would possibly win the Ulster competition this year; they wouldn't fear that challenge. With no backdoor it must be a nightmare being stuck in the same provincial competition as Dublin."
Your opening sentence is like something our Royal correspondent would say. Only maybe Dublin? Add 9 teams to that list. Let Meath and Kildare into Ulster and Donegal and Tyrone into Leinster. At least Dubs might get a game.

Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 917 - 14/04/2021 14:26:48    2337177

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Replying To Onion_Sack:  "Just a small technical correction there forever! There hasn't been a Queen of England since 1707 when that title came to an end with Queen Anne and the act of union with Scotland, ie, beginning of UK. From then on the country of England ceased to be a sovereign state as its sovereignty was taken over by and controlled by the UK since 1707 as it is to this day. With all this in mind Lizzys official title is Queen of the UK and head of all her other realms, territory's, and commonwealth. Just saying! Apparently to refer to her as Queen of England would be like referering to Mickey D as president of Dublin while we all know John Costello is :-) ! And before anybody accuses me of anything I just have a huge interest in history!"
I stand corrected, Onion Sack. As for poor Cavan, only one title since the 1952 coronation sounds back enough, but only five in total since 1707 is terrible altogether!

foreveryoung (USA) - Posts: 699 - 14/04/2021 16:17:06    2337196

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Replying To Saynothing:  "Your opening sentence is like something our Royal correspondent would say. Only maybe Dublin? Add 9 teams to that list. Let Meath and Kildare into Ulster and Donegal and Tyrone into Leinster. At least Dubs might get a game."
Really?? Not last time they (Tyrone) met in a knock out game. As I recall it was over well before half time. Sean cavanagh said they really thought they had a chance. After 5 minutes he's said "we knew we were fukd. "
Pity some of his supporters don't get real and stop living in the past thinking they a top 4 team. Tyrone are far from it.

royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 17787 - 14/04/2021 18:13:55    2337214

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Replying To Saynothing:  "Your opening sentence is like something our Royal correspondent would say. Only maybe Dublin? Add 9 teams to that list. Let Meath and Kildare into Ulster and Donegal and Tyrone into Leinster. At least Dubs might get a game."
Sometimes it's fair to introduce a bit of balance. On their day Cavan were able to win an Ulster title last season. I wouldn't count Cavan much better, or even better than Meath or Kildare.

Dublin haven't had many "championship" games in the last six years outside of Leinster even mind within it. Kerry yes against 14 Dubs in the drawn final and a very good Mayo team in a few finals unless you want to count one or two super 8 games when Dublin were already safely through.

So to say Tyrone and Donegal would give Dublin a game in Leinster - there is no evidence to back that up, yet Cavan winning an Ulster title adds some weight to the argument Meath and maybe Kildare could give Ulster a go. I've had some debates with the original poster over the years but on this occasion I think he is close to being correct.

sam1884 (UK) - Posts: 847 - 14/04/2021 19:05:48    2337219

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Replying To sam1884:  "Sometimes it's fair to introduce a bit of balance. On their day Cavan were able to win an Ulster title last season. I wouldn't count Cavan much better, or even better than Meath or Kildare.

Dublin haven't had many "championship" games in the last six years outside of Leinster even mind within it. Kerry yes against 14 Dubs in the drawn final and a very good Mayo team in a few finals unless you want to count one or two super 8 games when Dublin were already safely through.

So to say Tyrone and Donegal would give Dublin a game in Leinster - there is no evidence to back that up, yet Cavan winning an Ulster title adds some weight to the argument Meath and maybe Kildare could give Ulster a go. I've had some debates with the original poster over the years but on this occasion I think he is close to being correct."
What way does it go, Sam1884 and our Royal correspondent under a tree,

Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 917 - 14/04/2021 21:40:25    2337233

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Replying To royaldunne:  "Really?? Not last time they (Tyrone) met in a knock out game. As I recall it was over well before half time. Sean cavanagh said they really thought they had a chance. After 5 minutes he's said "we knew we were fukd. "
Pity some of his supporters don't get real and stop living in the past thinking they a top 4 team. Tyrone are far from it."
Dublin 1, Kerry 2, Donegal, Mayo,Galway, Tyrone joint all joint 3rd, Roscommon,Cork Monaghan,Cavan, Armagh then Tipp. Wouldn't worry about the rest.

Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 917 - 14/04/2021 22:17:34    2337237

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Replying To Saynothing:  "What way does it go, Sam1884 and our Royal correspondent under a tree,"
I'll take that as my points are 100% correct thank you.

sam1884 (UK) - Posts: 847 - 14/04/2021 22:47:40    2337245

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Replying To AfricanGael:  "They are not needed and contribute nothing. Apart from millions to the GAA coffers, I thought everyone had realised by now that the Super 8's were nothing more than a money making racket. Sure we'll call them "Super" to make everyone feel important, classic case of blind loyalty."
Just to be a pedant, the GAA themselves never used the term "Super 8s" to refer to the QF groups. It was always the "Quarter Final Group Stage". "Super 8s" was a name invented by the media that everyone adopted.

CastleBravo (Meath) - Posts: 1467 - 15/04/2021 09:45:22    2337257

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Replying To CastleBravo:  "
Replying To AfricanGael:  "They are not needed and contribute nothing. Apart from millions to the GAA coffers, I thought everyone had realised by now that the Super 8's were nothing more than a money making racket. Sure we'll call them "Super" to make everyone feel important, classic case of blind loyalty."
Just to be a pedant, the GAA themselves never used the term "Super 8s" to refer to the QF groups. It was always the "Quarter Final Group Stage". "Super 8s" was a name invented by the media that everyone adopted."
or they should just get rid of the quarter final group stage altogether or phase 1, phase 2 or whatever it is called, the quarter final weekend over 2 days in august b/h was a much better format.............it is no coincidence that the super 8 format came in after the GAA got into bed with Sky

totalrecall (Leitrim) - Posts: 587 - 15/04/2021 10:12:15    2337260

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Replying To Saynothing:  "Your opening sentence is like something our Royal correspondent would say. Only maybe Dublin? Add 9 teams to that list. Let Meath and Kildare into Ulster and Donegal and Tyrone into Leinster. At least Dubs might get a game."
They probably still wouldn't get a game

Meath10 (Meath) - Posts: 143 - 15/04/2021 10:25:15    2337264

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Replying To sam1884:  "I'll take that as my points are 100% correct thank you."
Yep.

royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 17787 - 15/04/2021 11:13:36    2337273

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Replying To Saynothing:  "Dublin 1, Kerry 2, Donegal, Mayo,Galway, Tyrone joint all joint 3rd, Roscommon,Cork Monaghan,Cavan, Armagh then Tipp. Wouldn't worry about the rest."
Thank you. I really needed a good laugh. And you gave me one. That's brilliant. I think go west had a song titled after you in 80s.
Brilliant. I love delusions. :)

royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 17787 - 15/04/2021 11:15:06    2337274

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