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Does Anyone Actually Want A 4X8 Regional Structure To Replace Counties Only Playing In Their Home Province?

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Replying To Whammo86:  "This is a common format suggested. I guess my big problem with is: What's the point of the second tier competition?"
There's no point in it. It's a pat on the head type thing for the weaker counties. It shouldn't be entertained

republicofcloone (Leitrim) - Posts: 311 - 30/01/2021 15:13:34    2329717

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Replying To munstermaniac71:  "Far too many in GAA dismiss changing all ireland competitions to group based competitions because of a fear of a tiny number of games possibly being dead rubbers. It would only be a tiny number of games. So what.
if you play more and play more against better sides and sides of your own level you will improve."
It wouldn't be a tiny number of games. Antrim playing an Ulster round robin where they be out after 3 or 4 games into an 8 game competition.

Is there actually a point to Waterford playing 5 games in Munster getting tanked each week.

The teams in Dublin's group in Leinster there'd be 0 point to.

I would be very strongly in favour of a more league/group based All Ireland. The suggested is not the answer though.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3296 - 30/01/2021 17:44:37    2329742

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Replying To Stmunnsriver:  "yes, i fancy our chances v kerry in the football"
And why not. That would be the beauty of an open draw and when big teams drawn away from home it levels the playing field. Dublin last away game in the Leinster championship was against Longford in Pearse Park where they were very lucky to come away with a tight win in 2006.
Longford also beat Mayo there too. Kerry struggled there also in 09 before going on to win Sam. In 2012 Kerry were very lucky v westmeath in mulligar (and we got the rub of the green from the ref that day too). An open draw would make a very interesting championship especially for supporters.

CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 1611 - 30/01/2021 18:13:23    2329744

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Replying To republicofcloone:  "There's no point in it. It's a pat on the head type thing for the weaker counties. It shouldn't be entertained"
Agree Cloone. Just a patronising idea, to put the plebs in their box, and keep the All Ireland for the elite.

MicktheMiller (Offaly) - Posts: 214 - 30/01/2021 18:49:29    2329755

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Replying To Whammo86:  "It wouldn't be a tiny number of games. Antrim playing an Ulster round robin where they be out after 3 or 4 games into an 8 game competition.

Is there actually a point to Waterford playing 5 games in Munster getting tanked each week.

The teams in Dublin's group in Leinster there'd be 0 point to.

I would be very strongly in favour of a more league/group based All Ireland. The suggested is not the answer though."
You can have groups in larger provinces and something needs to be done and there would be criticisms of any proposal made so what can you do?

Could mods keep all competition ideas/proposals to one thread?

munstermaniac71 (Galway) - Posts: 15 - 30/01/2021 19:23:55    2329762

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Replying To munstermaniac71:  "You can have groups in larger provinces and something needs to be done and there would be criticisms of any proposal made so what can you do?

Could mods keep all competition ideas/proposals to one thread?"
Come up with the best one out of all the imperfect ones.

There is no perfect solution but there should be aim to create more meaningful games rather than games for games sake.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3296 - 30/01/2021 19:42:13    2329765

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Some folks just keep repeating the same lazy Champions League 8x4 - 1 from each NFL div to each group, top 2 from each, leading to a KO 16 - as if it was somehow an "ideal model".
Symmetry is not everything !

I have three issues with that model - 1) too many mismatches, incl. div 1v4; 2) too many dead rubbers with 4-team groups like the Super 8s, incl final group tables with team wins of 3-2-1-0; and 3) teams picking up soft wins in the 3rd game to advance against an opponent already qualified or eliminated.

If I'm forced to adopt such a group stage tournament - I'd modify as follows -
1) Open Draw groups, except div 1 and div 4 teams are kept apart.
2) 5 groups of 5 and 1 of 7 (latter, 3 plays 2 other pairs, and pairs head to head).
3) 4 group games per team, 2 home, 2 away.
3) Top 2 from each of 6 groups and 4 best 3rds to KO Rd of 16.

Groups likely to reflect more concentrated quality - some good, some bad - but all are likely to be more competitive than the peddled 8x4.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1932 - 30/01/2021 22:55:21    2329785

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Replying To Manners5:  "The breakdown of home games based on league positioning is a good suggestion, but how exactly is that format going to improve standards & get more teams competing at the top end?

If that format was in place for 2021, of the 8 groups, only the one with Mayo would offer a heavyweights clash in the group stage. It suits division 1 teams who can taper up for the latter stages of the championship.

A 2nd Tier championship won't have the same value if it doesn't offer a promotion of sorts to play in the 1st tier. Also if a big team were to suffer a shock & fall into the 2nd tier on a given year, you could find players withdrawing, given it wouldn't effect their status for the following year."
It's not going to fix things overnight. It's a long term plan.

Of course there are going to be mismatches but no more so than the current format.

As another poster said to get stronger the "weaker" teams need to play the stronger ones more often especially at home.

Yes the big teams can ramp up at their leisure - haven't Kerry done that for ever and Dublin for the last 20 years?

There will be dead rubbers but if there are incentives for finishing first (play a 2nd placed team in last 16) and 3rd (play a bottom team in last 16 secondary cup) then these can be reduced.

The secondary competition gives something to play for and extra championship games.

Probably won't change things in the short-term but by year 5 I'd expect to see some teams moving up in the standings.

Over the past 10 years the strategy seemed to be to get the most out of the top tier rather than bringing up all levels.

opa01 (Cavan) - Posts: 488 - 31/01/2021 09:35:17    2329797

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Replying To opa01:  "It's not going to fix things overnight. It's a long term plan.

Of course there are going to be mismatches but no more so than the current format.

As another poster said to get stronger the "weaker" teams need to play the stronger ones more often especially at home.

Yes the big teams can ramp up at their leisure - haven't Kerry done that for ever and Dublin for the last 20 years?

There will be dead rubbers but if there are incentives for finishing first (play a 2nd placed team in last 16) and 3rd (play a bottom team in last 16 secondary cup) then these can be reduced.

The secondary competition gives something to play for and extra championship games.

Probably won't change things in the short-term but by year 5 I'd expect to see some teams moving up in the standings.

Over the past 10 years the strategy seemed to be to get the most out of the top tier rather than bringing up all levels."
Honestly they should just make a really good top tier championship.

That means a second tier competition is valuable too as the entry requirement for the top tier.

If you were to do away with the national league a 2 tier tournament with 16 in each tier could be a really exciting competition.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3296 - 31/01/2021 11:29:14    2329805

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Replying To opa01:  "It's not going to fix things overnight. It's a long term plan.

Of course there are going to be mismatches but no more so than the current format.

As another poster said to get stronger the "weaker" teams need to play the stronger ones more often especially at home.

Yes the big teams can ramp up at their leisure - haven't Kerry done that for ever and Dublin for the last 20 years?

There will be dead rubbers but if there are incentives for finishing first (play a 2nd placed team in last 16) and 3rd (play a bottom team in last 16 secondary cup) then these can be reduced.

The secondary competition gives something to play for and extra championship games.

Probably won't change things in the short-term but by year 5 I'd expect to see some teams moving up in the standings.

Over the past 10 years the strategy seemed to be to get the most out of the top tier rather than bringing up all levels."
For the weaker teams to get stronger, they need to play the stronger teams more often, especially at home. Thats a concept I would fully agree with.

Surely that would indicate the current league structure as a driver of increasing gaps in standard between strong & weak?? Look at the gap in standards between consistent division 1 teams & teams in division 2; or how newly promoted teams come straight back down.

If the GAA wanted to reduce this gap, then would focussing on the league structure not be a better idea?

A simple solution would be to increase division 1 to 16 teams in a 1A/1B set up. Get more teams playing at the highest standard & give them better preparation for championship games as well as generating more interest/coverage etc.

You talk of needing 5 years for a structure to have any real effect. I think a league structure as per above would improve competitiveness in the championship with 3 years.

Manners5 (Westmeath) - Posts: 16 - 31/01/2021 22:42:49    2329931

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Replying To Manners5:  "For the weaker teams to get stronger, they need to play the stronger teams more often, especially at home. Thats a concept I would fully agree with.

Surely that would indicate the current league structure as a driver of increasing gaps in standard between strong & weak?? Look at the gap in standards between consistent division 1 teams & teams in division 2; or how newly promoted teams come straight back down.

If the GAA wanted to reduce this gap, then would focussing on the league structure not be a better idea?

A simple solution would be to increase division 1 to 16 teams in a 1A/1B set up. Get more teams playing at the highest standard & give them better preparation for championship games as well as generating more interest/coverage etc.

You talk of needing 5 years for a structure to have any real effect. I think a league structure as per above would improve competitiveness in the championship with 3 years."
I think opening up top level football for more teams would be great.

I think it'd be even better if it was done as the championship rather than as the league.

If there's something to be learned from the hurling it's that group stages can work for the championship if the competing teams are playing teams at their level.

You have a competition where it's 2 groups of 8 in each tier, possibly seeded by provincial championship performance, I think you're on to a great competition.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3296 - 01/02/2021 15:08:52    2330008

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That's a good simple solution and gives definite fixtures to all teams...also would give a fairly similar length season to all so that the top teams aren't getting longer seasons than the weaker teams.

8 teams on each side with 7 games each, top team plays 4th on opposite side in Q,F. ...2nd plays 3rd etc...could be an open draw for Quarter final venues ??.....make it really interesting !!
bottom team in each group for relegation or bottom 2 on each side could play off....2 teams come up from other lower group of 16 for following years competition ? That lower group could have 8 on each side with same format of Quarter finals.... two finalists will be promoted ....adds value and relevance to 2nd tier competition and would be a very uncomplicated structure for a change

Black+Blue (Galway) - Posts: 106 - 01/02/2021 17:20:25    2330023

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Replying To Black+Blue:  "That's a good simple solution and gives definite fixtures to all teams...also would give a fairly similar length season to all so that the top teams aren't getting longer seasons than the weaker teams.

8 teams on each side with 7 games each, top team plays 4th on opposite side in Q,F. ...2nd plays 3rd etc...could be an open draw for Quarter final venues ??.....make it really interesting !!
bottom team in each group for relegation or bottom 2 on each side could play off....2 teams come up from other lower group of 16 for following years competition ? That lower group could have 8 on each side with same format of Quarter finals.... two finalists will be promoted ....adds value and relevance to 2nd tier competition and would be a very uncomplicated structure for a change"
That's exactly why I think it'd work.

The hurling just pretty much made there All Ireland an old NHL structure just with a Provincial element added.

The football could do very similar. I'm a firm believer that making a better top tier will elevate the second tier automatically.

Antrim you'd hope would be a team would challenge regularly in the second tier. If we were promoted to the top tier, 1 season of that would be better for Antrim football than 10 years of qualifiers or Tailteann cup.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3296 - 01/02/2021 18:35:39    2330030

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I think opening up top level football for more teams would be great.

I think it'd be even better if it was done as the championship rather than as the league.

If there's something to be learned from the hurling it's that group stages can work for the championship if the competing teams are playing teams at their level.

You have a competition where it's 2 groups of 8 in each tier, possibly seeded by provincial championship performance, I think you're on to a great competition."
I like the 2 tiers of 2x8 as well.
Our main difference is that I'd keep both tiers in the race for the same title (ideally Sam AIC, not the NFL).
AI KO Rd of 16 - top 5 in each A group, top 3 in each B group.
6 Up/6 Down = All prior year KO 16 to A groups the next year.
So, I'd have have top 10 staying in A, bottom 10 in B, and middle 12 as 6 up/6 down.

I like the idea that a team either makes the KO or has an easier path the next year (one problem I have with the official league championship proposal is that a team can win 10 in a row, all from 3rd in div 2).

In my idea, it may not be ideal to win the title from a B group, but I think this is the best way to bridge quality differences (and you must go up).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1932 - 02/02/2021 00:41:58    2330068

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