National Forum

Future Of Leinster Championship

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Replying To Htaem:  "It was shocking jimbo, one of our worst days ever, no question about it and I completely agree that it was a non-performance so it doesn't even qualify as one of our worst 'performances'.

I don't think you can analyse the game either to be honest, there's nothing to analyse.

Now I've been critical of Meath county boards over the last 2 decades, I think decisions taken, particularly in the early 00s, were disastrous for Meath football and we're only slowly addressing them now (for eg only fixing our club championship this year after nearly 20 years of rubbish).

So hands up, a lot of our problems are of our own making, I've said that repeatedly for years and I stand by it.

But also, I don't think it's unfair to ask the question, how did we go from having a vibrant, competitive Leinster championship to a complete no contest over the last decade?

In the 2000s, Kildare, Meath, Dublin, Laois and Westmeath all won Leinster titles and while Dublin gained control for the last few years, the championship was still competitive, finals were by no means a forgone conclusion.

Does the blame lay 100% with the other 10 counties or are there more factors at play?

Now I don't ask that with any insinuation, I'm genuinely interested in hearing people's views."
I think it s Meaths fall from grace that has led to decline in the Leinster Championship. Its always really been a Dublin & Meath Championship. The 00's were an anomaly really, that was never goint to be stable like that in the future

Kildare had a kick under O Dwyer, but really they have been a poor footballing side in nationally and in Leinster always, Kildare have 13 Leinster titles: 1903, '05, '19, '26, '27, '28, 29, '30, '31, 35, '56, '98, '00 - Kildare did nothing in the game 56-98, really they have just returned to Meath. Stephen Cluxton has more Leinster titles then Kildare.

Everyone else in Leinster will chip in during a golden generation like Offaly, Wexford, Laois and Westmeath but its flask in the pan.

Its always been a Dublin vs Meath Championship, and the decline of the Leinster Championship has coincided with Meath decline. Furlong was saying during the week Leinster needs a strong Meath and hes probably right.

Even in Dublins best years previously under Hefo, Dublin just about scraped over Meath teams. I think its undeniable Leinsters fortunes have been linked to Meaths.

Personally id scrap the provincals, Leinster i think is a dirge at this stage, its become warm up for Dublin, the games lack competitiveness. But i do think Dublin are an easy target. Next year there wont be any other Leinster team in Div 1 bar, Dublin. As Mes said in the All Ireland seires counties look forward to playing Leinster teams apart from Dublin.

Leinster is going through its worst time ever as a competitive province collectively apart from Dublin. While Dublin are the greatest team of all time.

Lets be honest its not just Leinster, Dublin have beaten everything the country has thrown at them for almost six season now, inclusive of every other provincial winners and runners up for years. Dublin are dominating nationally not just in Leinster.

I actually think Meath are going down the right path and i liked the look of some of their players last night, its the brave thing to do now not to react and thats exactly what i think they should do.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4188 - 22/11/2020 10:04:00    2312546

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Replying To CastleBravo:  "Yup, the problem runs a lot deeper than just Dublin.

Meath are the 2nd best team in Leinster, and most people would agree that Kildare are the 3rd best. Meath reached the AI QFs last year, and Kildare the year before. They're also to my knowledge the only 2 Leinster counties (other than Dublin) to reach the AI SFs since the qualifiers started.

After those teams though the dropoff is stark. Who else in the province can anyone picture reaching the QFs? Laois have been consistent Leinster Semi Finalists in recent years but have been anonymous at AI level. Longford? Westmeath? Louth? Offaly? Not a chance. The last Leinster team other than Kildare to string together just 2 or 3 qualifier wins to reach round 4 of the qualifiers was Laois in 2013.

Take Dublin out of Leinster and there'll be 3 fewer hammerings, but it'll bring no overall improvement to the quality of Leinster teams."
Wexford got to the AI Semi Final in 2008 but I get your point.

Looks as Meath were pathetic last night in every aspect but I'm not sure that they are that poor. The writing was on the wall against Kildare when they needed us to cough up 5 goals.

What's the answer in Leinster? Rotate the Dubs around the provinces? Disband the provincial championships?

Make no mistake about it the Dubs would have achieved this dominance in every other province also included the sacred Ulster championship.

Every team in Ireland bar the 11 Leinster counties has a shot at winning their province and not getting hammered by the Dubs on an annual basis or bi-annual basis. That's the nub of the problem for Kildare/ Meath currently. The end result is known in Leinster before a ball is thrown in.

daytona11 (Kildare) - Posts: 3963 - 22/11/2020 10:04:36    2312547

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Replying To Htaem:  "It was shocking jimbo, one of our worst days ever, no question about it and I completely agree that it was a non-performance so it doesn't even qualify as one of our worst 'performances'.

I don't think you can analyse the game either to be honest, there's nothing to analyse.

Now I've been critical of Meath county boards over the last 2 decades, I think decisions taken, particularly in the early 00s, were disastrous for Meath football and we're only slowly addressing them now (for eg only fixing our club championship this year after nearly 20 years of rubbish).

So hands up, a lot of our problems are of our own making, I've said that repeatedly for years and I stand by it.

But also, I don't think it's unfair to ask the question, how did we go from having a vibrant, competitive Leinster championship to a complete no contest over the last decade?

In the 2000s, Kildare, Meath, Dublin, Laois and Westmeath all won Leinster titles and while Dublin gained control for the last few years, the championship was still competitive, finals were by no means a forgone conclusion.

Does the blame lay 100% with the other 10 counties or are there more factors at play?

Now I don't ask that with any insinuation, I'm genuinely interested in hearing people's views."
Dubs are given the green light to play too many games in Croke Park - Leinster counties need to do the right thing and stop voting for that,

It's hard to stomach some of the noise around it when it's Leinster counties themselves voting for it.

It's just blatantly obvious.

Revenue will be down impacting available funding across the board but Dubs should be playing home games in PP in my opinion

But finals should be in HQ

Meath tore Kildare apart there last week but yes you make very valid points regarding the place Meath find themselves in and its very importabt to address these things

.. otherwise we go down Daiths absolute hyperbole route.

There's much more at play

jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20342 - 22/11/2020 10:18:26    2312551

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Replying To Whammo86:  "In most seasons Meath would be in a top tier championship."
Maybe so, but like my own county they are going nowhere fast regardless of what spin anybody wants to put o it unfortunately.

Bon (Kildare) - Posts: 1411 - 22/11/2020 10:40:46    2312560

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Replying To TheUsername:  "I think it s Meaths fall from grace that has led to decline in the Leinster Championship. Its always really been a Dublin & Meath Championship. The 00's were an anomaly really, that was never goint to be stable like that in the future

Kildare had a kick under O Dwyer, but really they have been a poor footballing side in nationally and in Leinster always, Kildare have 13 Leinster titles: 1903, '05, '19, '26, '27, '28, 29, '30, '31, 35, '56, '98, '00 - Kildare did nothing in the game 56-98, really they have just returned to Meath. Stephen Cluxton has more Leinster titles then Kildare.

Everyone else in Leinster will chip in during a golden generation like Offaly, Wexford, Laois and Westmeath but its flask in the pan.

Its always been a Dublin vs Meath Championship, and the decline of the Leinster Championship has coincided with Meath decline. Furlong was saying during the week Leinster needs a strong Meath and hes probably right.

Even in Dublins best years previously under Hefo, Dublin just about scraped over Meath teams. I think its undeniable Leinsters fortunes have been linked to Meaths.

Personally id scrap the provincals, Leinster i think is a dirge at this stage, its become warm up for Dublin, the games lack competitiveness. But i do think Dublin are an easy target. Next year there wont be any other Leinster team in Div 1 bar, Dublin. As Mes said in the All Ireland seires counties look forward to playing Leinster teams apart from Dublin.

Leinster is going through its worst time ever as a competitive province collectively apart from Dublin. While Dublin are the greatest team of all time.

Lets be honest its not just Leinster, Dublin have beaten everything the country has thrown at them for almost six season now, inclusive of every other provincial winners and runners up for years. Dublin are dominating nationally not just in Leinster.

I actually think Meath are going down the right path and i liked the look of some of their players last night, its the brave thing to do now not to react and thats exactly what i think they should do."
I think Leinster does need a strong Meath. Historically Dublin have always been the dominant team but other counties would rise periodically and challenge them and we've tended to do that morw regularly than the rest.

But absolutely nobody is capable of doing it any more and to me that is very strange. I wish we were better and I wish we'd made better decisions at county board level but the blame can't sit squarely with us either, where is everyone else?

In fact no team in Ireland can beat the Dubs in champsionship football, but they are better conditioned and battle hardened by the time they get to play yous so they put up a better fight but ultimately the result is still the same.

As for the provincials, I'm open to removing them from the championship (and perhaps used for seeding championship proper), but I wouldn't like to see them scrapped altogether.

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 22/11/2020 10:44:32    2312563

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Just slightly off topic... huge amount of media/posters reference to the Dublin 'team' that are going for 6 in a row All-Irelands..... but only 6 players that started the A.I. win in 2015 started the Leinster Final win yesterday....is that not a conveyor belt of super talent rather than a 'team' ?
How do other counties catch up in providing consistent talent like these lads ?

Black+Blue (Galway) - Posts: 106 - 22/11/2020 10:50:54    2312565

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Stop being bitter, as for as population goes, Dublin always had greater population. in hurling kilkenny dominated 2000s and up to 2015, yet their population is only 100,000

DuhallowRed (Cork) - Posts: 168 - 22/11/2020 10:55:01    2312568

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Replying To jimbodub:  "Dubs are given the green light to play too many games in Croke Park - Leinster counties need to do the right thing and stop voting for that,

It's hard to stomach some of the noise around it when it's Leinster counties themselves voting for it.

It's just blatantly obvious.

Revenue will be down impacting available funding across the board but Dubs should be playing home games in PP in my opinion

But finals should be in HQ

Meath tore Kildare apart there last week but yes you make very valid points regarding the place Meath find themselves in and its very importabt to address these things

.. otherwise we go down Daiths absolute hyperbole route.

There's much more at play"
I don't have an issue with big games being in Croker jimbo, it was never an issue in the past and it's not the reason Dublin are dominating now.

I honestly don't know exactly what has led to Dublin dominating the whole country (not just Leinster). Perhaps it is the money, although I know that can be a thorny issue with Dublin fans because naturally they see it as discrediting their team.

For the record, I absolutely admire the commitment, dedication and hunger to win that's in the Dublin panel, it takes a huge amount of work and money can't buy those attributes.

Money can buy coaches and help in terms of preparartion and development though and that's something which I think should be properly investigated to put the financial debate to bed once and for all.

But even all that aside, from a Meath point of view, I completely accept and agree that we have to do much better. I think after a no show like that our county board need to call an egm and have a serious look at what we're doing and how we should plan for the future, because we can't allow and accept standard to drop that low.

But anyway, pigs will fly first.

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 22/11/2020 10:55:59    2312570

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Replying To jimbodub:  "Leinster has no future if teams go about how Meath performed last night.

They didn't lay a glove on Dublin.

That was the worst Meath performance I've ever witnessed, and it can be dressed up all it wants with the usual stuff, but Meath simply were shockingly poor and for me they totally collapsed.

It was a non performance.

Some serious questions have to be asked regarding their own application to the game,

Dubs bring what they always bring and you'd have to question how Meath applied themselves to the challenge.

Meath went into a game against Dublin with no kick out strategy. On Dublin's kick out they pushed right up leaving huge space in behind to one of the best players in the country to be left unmarked.. ahh here I could be here all day.. not one hard meaningful challenge..

There are much better teams to Meath out there that has been proven in the AI series. Teams with less or similar populations to Meath and all that stuff that haven't collapsed in such an extraordinary way

Dublin go into that knowing full well that last night's game was a joke.

Everyone and their dog knew Dublin would probably be in a semifinal this year, but not many saw it being that easy and expected a far better Meath performance. That in itself was the problem, Meath provided a non performance and that applies on the pitch and sideline."
This is really unfair on Meath, it's like asking Finn Harps to put it up to Barcelona. They didnt lay a glove on Dublin because they couldnt get near them fitness wise. Meath and other Leinster counties have got so many hammerings from Diblin that they are beat before they get on the pitch. The old county boundary system for GAA is not working at the moment.

Green_Gold (Donegal) - Posts: 1784 - 22/11/2020 11:01:05    2312572

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Would a combined Leinster team excluding Dublin obviously, beat this Dublin team? That's how far in front they are

1 Nial Corbett Laois
2 Donal Keoghan Meath
3 Mark Timmons Laois
4 David Hyland Kildare
5 Paul Cribbin Kildare
6 Mickey Quin Longford
7 James Dolan Westmeath
8 Kevin Feely Kildare
9 Ray Connellan Westmeath
10. Kieran Martin Westmeath
11. John Heslin Westmeath
12 John O Loughlin Laois
13 Sam Mulroy Louth
14 Daniel Flynn
15 Niall McNamee Offaly

Maybe that team should just face Dublin in Leinster final next year.

FoolsGold (Cavan) - Posts: 2420 - 22/11/2020 11:06:54    2312578

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Replying To Bon:  "Maybe so, but like my own county they are going nowhere fast regardless of what spin anybody wants to put o it unfortunately."
I actually agree with you that there needs to be a tiered championship, I guess what I'm getting at is that it's not the only problem.

There's a lack of depth in the game. Meath are somewhere around the 8th-12th best team in the country and they haven't gotten close to Dublin in years.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3650 - 22/11/2020 11:13:30    2312582

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Replying To Green_Gold:  "This is really unfair on Meath, it's like asking Finn Harps to put it up to Barcelona. They didnt lay a glove on Dublin because they couldnt get near them fitness wise. Meath and other Leinster counties have got so many hammerings from Diblin that they are beat before they get on the pitch. The old county boundary system for GAA is not working at the moment."
thats why i asked a while ago if u pumpped say 200 million in to carlow or leitrim could they win a senior all ireland?

Stmunnsriver (Wexford) - Posts: 2208 - 22/11/2020 11:14:16    2312584

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Replying To Htaem:  "I don't have an issue with big games being in Croker jimbo, it was never an issue in the past and it's not the reason Dublin are dominating now.

I honestly don't know exactly what has led to Dublin dominating the whole country (not just Leinster). Perhaps it is the money, although I know that can be a thorny issue with Dublin fans because naturally they see it as discrediting their team.

For the record, I absolutely admire the commitment, dedication and hunger to win that's in the Dublin panel, it takes a huge amount of work and money can't buy those attributes.

Money can buy coaches and help in terms of preparartion and development though and that's something which I think should be properly investigated to put the financial debate to bed once and for all.

But even all that aside, from a Meath point of view, I completely accept and agree that we have to do much better. I think after a no show like that our county board need to call an egm and have a serious look at what we're doing and how we should plan for the future, because we can't allow and accept standard to drop that low.

But anyway, pigs will fly first."
"For the record, I absolutely admire the commitment, dedication and hunger to win that's in the Dublin panel, it takes a huge amount of work and money can't buy those attributes."

Yes, the hunger, focus and determination of this Dublin squad to continue trying to win after all the recent success, is astounding. And they are still the most humble guys you could meet.
It is something that does not get enough acknowledgement imo.
Ciaran Whelan mentioned something last night - he met some of the lads during this Covid and the break from the game had actually re-energized them.
Hopefully we will also have Jack back from his break, next season when this Covid eases a bit..

Fionn (Dublin) - Posts: 3405 - 22/11/2020 11:18:08    2312586

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The point most people miss is that it is very difficult for the other counties in Leinster to motivate themselves to improve when they see Dublin lying in wait. Meath Kildare Laois Westmeath are all Division 2 sides
Meath were in super 8s last year. Laois won away to Derry last year and 2 years ago lost to Monaghan by 5 in a year Monaghan reached the semis. Kildare beat Mayo. The Leinster teams arent as bad as people think. If Meath for example were in Connacht they would gradually improve as they could target a provincial title. Simimilarly move Roscommon to Leinster and see how many hammerings from Dublin ( they already got two in the Super 8s ) would eventually cause them to regress

Malonemagic (Laois) - Posts: 693 - 22/11/2020 11:18:51    2312587

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Replying To Htaem:  "I don't have an issue with big games being in Croker jimbo, it was never an issue in the past and it's not the reason Dublin are dominating now.

I honestly don't know exactly what has led to Dublin dominating the whole country (not just Leinster). Perhaps it is the money, although I know that can be a thorny issue with Dublin fans because naturally they see it as discrediting their team.

For the record, I absolutely admire the commitment, dedication and hunger to win that's in the Dublin panel, it takes a huge amount of work and money can't buy those attributes.

Money can buy coaches and help in terms of preparartion and development though and that's something which I think should be properly investigated to put the financial debate to bed once and for all.

But even all that aside, from a Meath point of view, I completely accept and agree that we have to do much better. I think after a no show like that our county board need to call an egm and have a serious look at what we're doing and how we should plan for the future, because we can't allow and accept standard to drop that low.

But anyway, pigs will fly first."
There is no dount Dublin have the financial clout to put into great footballers

This is of course important

But that's a far broader issue

We're not the only ones fully maximizing our natural potential

There's massive money being spent on teams and we're far from the only team with financial advantages over other teams. Any top team are now spending big and well above most.

If financial fairness is to be examined it surely has to be across the board. Including the brown envelopes...

jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20342 - 22/11/2020 11:21:27    2312590

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Replying To Green_Gold:  "This is really unfair on Meath, it's like asking Finn Harps to put it up to Barcelona. They didnt lay a glove on Dublin because they couldnt get near them fitness wise. Meath and other Leinster counties have got so many hammerings from Diblin that they are beat before they get on the pitch. The old county boundary system for GAA is not working at the moment."
Meath competed well in Division 1 against the best teams in the country

They simply didn't turn up last night across the board

It was a non performance, even Meath lads are testifying to that above

They know well that their performance was in no way representative of their true potential.

They were a shambles. I've seen Dublin do the same thing. Tactically inept and the wheels just coming off.. it does happen but given the calibre of team that Dublin are.. if it happens against them you can be sure you're going to be pay for it

jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20342 - 22/11/2020 11:26:42    2312595

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Replying To Htaem:  "I think Leinster does need a strong Meath. Historically Dublin have always been the dominant team but other counties would rise periodically and challenge them and we've tended to do that morw regularly than the rest.

But absolutely nobody is capable of doing it any more and to me that is very strange. I wish we were better and I wish we'd made better decisions at county board level but the blame can't sit squarely with us either, where is everyone else?

In fact no team in Ireland can beat the Dubs in champsionship football, but they are better conditioned and battle hardened by the time they get to play yous so they put up a better fight but ultimately the result is still the same.

As for the provincials, I'm open to removing them from the championship (and perhaps used for seeding championship proper), but I wouldn't like to see them scrapped altogether."
If you look at it critically, it was the loss of Boylan that coincided with Meath decline and Dublins dominance in Leinster. Seans last season was 05 and since then Dublin have won Leinster titles in '06, '07, '08, '09, '11, '12, '13, '14, '15, 16, '17, '18, '19, going from stregtght to stregth.

An old coach of mine, used to say when we were a top team never give a sucker an in or chance,. Meath gave Dublin the chance after Boylan left, a long run of success, breeds, success, breeds history, raises standards and all that goes with it, it becomes a self fulfilling cycle. Look at the psychology of last night, Dublin felt it was thier right to win last night and would battle for it, Meath just melted, the psychology of the fixture and counties has changed, Meath now see Dublin with an aura and give them to much respect.

I think Kerry are another great example of what i am trying to explain. Success at provincial level, breeds, belief, tradition and raises expectations and standards - while Munster has never been the strongest, without Munster i dont think Kerry would be successful.

Arguably the same thing now is happening to Dublin. Kerry wouldnt bat an eye lid about a Munster Championship, we used to do laps of honer and mass celebration in the 80s/90s/00's if we bet Meath. Now its a Leinster title is almost preseaosn, we're at the stage now were we are blooding and developing kids through the Leinster Champiosnhip.

Meath let Dublin in after Boylan left and Leinster has been the base and foundation, to raise standards and have a proper tilt at being great, we were always a sleeping giant, but the success in Leinster has bred success and now the success nationally in breeding success and raising standards in Dublin and Dublin finally fulfilling its massive potential. We are a different animal now.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4188 - 22/11/2020 11:34:46    2312601

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Replying To Green_Gold:  "This is really unfair on Meath, it's like asking Finn Harps to put it up to Barcelona. They didnt lay a glove on Dublin because they couldnt get near them fitness wise. Meath and other Leinster counties have got so many hammerings from Diblin that they are beat before they get on the pitch. The old county boundary system for GAA is not working at the moment."
Dublin very very fit, nearly like they've been training for months! Wonder why mccaffrey left the panel!!

achara (Monaghan) - Posts: 482 - 22/11/2020 11:37:43    2312605

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Think it really has to be acknowledged too

The average Dubs side of the 00's

Remember that laughing stock.. the running joke brigade

That simply couldn't beat a team outside of Leinster and in fact were regularly humiliated

Yet.. they were plenty good enough to be challenging for 6 Leinsters in a row before a win for Meath in 2010 (a freak result too)

The standard in Leinster hasn't been good for a long time, when again even a Dublin side with glaring weaknesses were still hoovering up a 5 in a row.. which let's be honest is the stuff of dreams for most counties.. and they weren't much use at anything else!

jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20342 - 22/11/2020 11:42:22    2312609

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Replying To jimbodub:  "Leinster has no future if teams go about how Meath performed last night.

They didn't lay a glove on Dublin.

That was the worst Meath performance I've ever witnessed, and it can be dressed up all it wants with the usual stuff, but Meath simply were shockingly poor and for me they totally collapsed.

It was a non performance.

Some serious questions have to be asked regarding their own application to the game,

Dubs bring what they always bring and you'd have to question how Meath applied themselves to the challenge.

Meath went into a game against Dublin with no kick out strategy. On Dublin's kick out they pushed right up leaving huge space in behind to one of the best players in the country to be left unmarked.. ahh here I could be here all day.. not one hard meaningful challenge..

There are much better teams to Meath out there that has been proven in the AI series. Teams with less or similar populations to Meath and all that stuff that haven't collapsed in such an extraordinary way

Dublin go into that knowing full well that last night's game was a joke.

Everyone and their dog knew Dublin would probably be in a semifinal this year, but not many saw it being that easy and expected a far better Meath performance. That in itself was the problem, Meath provided a non performance and that applies on the pitch and sideline."
That's a pretty nasty post after a bad defeat for Meath last night. There is a huge gap between the teams in ability and experience. However no gap in dedication or commitment. Kicking those Meath players while they are down isn't big or clever. The Meath underage teams having shown serious improvement and they seem to be building for the future in the right way.

bad.monkey (USA) - Posts: 4536 - 22/11/2020 11:44:01    2312613

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