National Forum

Divisional Sides

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A Leinster divisional league could be very good in hurling for players based in non traditional counties and to grow the games for those players.

It could be the case that if there were 8 divisional teams coming out of Kilkenny say, maybe Westmeath has the capacity to produce 2 competitive teams in that code.

Similarly Waterford based football players could possibly benefit from playing in a Munster divisional team competition.

Canuck I think is the guy on here has been lamenting how little their county board devotes it's time to football.

I think a Provincial organised divisional side competitions could be great for the weaker codes in different areas where maybe the club competitions are at a low standard.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3216 - 13/11/2019 13:29:25    2249429

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The Kerry Calendar is generally as follows

Mid Feb to Mid March, Divisional League games. All clubs play in these. Nothing serious, treated as per season really. All clubs would get about 4 games each and a final after

Mid March to April, 2 rounds of the county League (5 Divisions run on a 3 up 3 down basis, Junior and Intermediate clubs can rise up the divisions to play in Div 1, Senior clubs could be in Div 2)

April, Club Championships played to conclusion. All clubs play at least 3 games, round robin basis. Semi Final and Final for those who qualify

Mid May through to Aug end, 9 rounds of the county league. When you consider free weekends when Kerry are playing and a 2 week "holiday break" in Aug, its a pretty busy period

Mid Sept through to Oct/ early Nov, Senior County Championship, All team get at least 2 games. Takes 5 or 6 games to win title

Oct through to Dec, Divisional Championship, All clubs play in their divisional championship, taken pretty seriously by all. Senior Clubs could play Junior clubs

Defullback2017 (Kerry) - Posts: 6 - 13/11/2019 13:29:25    2249430

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Replying To mhaith_fear:  "
Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "Hypothetical Divisions for Donegal:

Teams in bold play senior.

Banagh

Ardara, Glencolmcille, Kilcar, Killybegs, Naomh Ultan, and St Nauls.

Finn Rovers

Convoy, Glenfin, Red Hughs, Robert Emmett's, Sean McCools, Setanta, and St Patrick's Lifford.

Inishowen

Buncrana, Burt, Carndonagh, Malin, Moville, St Patrick's Muff, and Urris.

Division Based in Letterkenny

Downings, Fanad Gaels, Glenswilly, Milford, Naomh Colmcille, Letterkenny Gaels, St Eunans, and Termon.

Tirhugh

Ballintra, Ballyshannon, Bundoran, Four Masters, and Pettigo.

West Donegal

Cloughaneely, Dungloe, Glenties, Gweedore, Naomh Mhuire, Na Rossa, and St Michaels."
For it to work in Donegal you would need to drastically reduce the number of Senior teams (currently 16) and/or use the old divisions i.e. South, South-west, Northwest, Inishowen, East."
The only way I can see it working is if you reduce the Senior Championship to 12 clubs plus 4 divisional sides.

East Donegal

Convoy, Glenfin, Glenswilly, Letterkenny Gaels, Naomh Colmcille, Red Hughs, Robert Emmetts, Sean McCools, Setanta, St Eunans, and St Patrick's Lifford.


Inishowen

Buncrana, Burt, Carndonagh, Malin, Moville, St Patrick's Muff, and Urris.


North West Donegal

Cloughaneely, Downings, Dungloe, Fanad Gaels, Glenties, Gweedore, Milford, Naomh Mhuire, Na Rossa, St Michaels, and Termon.


South Donegal (Banagh and Tirhugh)

Ardara, Ballintra, Ballyshannon, Bundoran, Four Masters, Glencolmcille, Kilcar, Killybegs, Naomh Ultan, Pettigo, and St Nauls.

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 266 - 13/11/2019 14:38:06    2249460

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Replying To Whammo86:  "A Leinster divisional league could be very good in hurling for players based in non traditional counties and to grow the games for those players.

It could be the case that if there were 8 divisional teams coming out of Kilkenny say, maybe Westmeath has the capacity to produce 2 competitive teams in that code.

Similarly Waterford based football players could possibly benefit from playing in a Munster divisional team competition.

Canuck I think is the guy on here has been lamenting how little their county board devotes it's time to football.

I think a Provincial organised divisional side competitions could be great for the weaker codes in different areas where maybe the club competitions are at a low standard."
How many divisions could you get in Antrim if you don't already have any?

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 266 - 13/11/2019 17:19:10    2249496

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Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "How many divisions could you get in Antrim if you don't already have any?"
We already have divisional competitions in both underage and Senior as well as All County League and Championship. North Antrim organise the hurling up around the Glens area (and a bit beyond) as most clubs in this area are hurling only though there are a few dual clubs. South West organise competitions for the football Clubs that are in the geographical area beyond Belfast and South Belfast look after Belfast in both codes. St Endas (Glengormley) changed a number of years back from South to South West and North Antrim in the respective codes.

Each area has its own Championships at adult and underage with leagues also being played for Senior grade in Belfast and underage in both. And the championships are ran independently of the All County with neither having a bearing on the other. At present the All County leagues and Championship aren't aligned though clubs for the most part play in the relevant Championship i.e. Div 1 play Senior etc. And Junior and Intermediate winners play are required to play up a grade the following year.

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4055 - 13/11/2019 17:45:19    2249499

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Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "How many divisions could you get in Antrim if you don't already have any?"
We kind of have 2 large divisions currently and do play a cup competition for teams in those divisions.

Weirdly they are called South West (the not Belfast area) and South Antrim (Belfast).

There's also a North Antrim division that is mostly used in hurling and is a sub division of South West in Football.

I think in Football you could definitely have 4 divisions. North and South West and then some way of dividing Belfast into 2.

There's only around 12 senior clubs at the minute out of a total of 34 adult clubs.

A divisional team made of 5 clubs, 2/3 intermediate teams and 2/3 junior teams would be very much in the running for winning the championship.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3216 - 13/11/2019 18:12:53    2249503

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Replying To Whammo86:  "A Leinster divisional league could be very good in hurling for players based in non traditional counties and to grow the games for those players.

It could be the case that if there were 8 divisional teams coming out of Kilkenny say, maybe Westmeath has the capacity to produce 2 competitive teams in that code.

Similarly Waterford based football players could possibly benefit from playing in a Munster divisional team competition.

Canuck I think is the guy on here has been lamenting how little their county board devotes it's time to football.

I think a Provincial organised divisional side competitions could be great for the weaker codes in different areas where maybe the club competitions are at a low standard."
Kerry - 8
Cork - 9
Waterford - 2
Limerick - 4
Clare - 3
Tipperary - 4

That gives you three tiers of 10. The problem with divisional leagues is whether teams/players would be willing to take on the extra games. Would the divisional championships be limited to junior and intermediate teams?

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 266 - 13/11/2019 18:24:44    2249507

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Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "Kerry - 8
Cork - 9
Waterford - 2
Limerick - 4
Clare - 3
Tipperary - 4

That gives you three tiers of 10. The problem with divisional leagues is whether teams/players would be willing to take on the extra games. Would the divisional championships be limited to junior and intermediate teams?"
My thoughts would be that players would play these instead of club leagues and they'd be meaningful games below intercounty level around the same time.

Players from senior clubs would be available.

In Munster you could have 3 groups of 10 with top 4 from each group going to a knockout stage. That's 13 games maximum.

The biggest thing would be that these teams would be established and that juveniles not playing inter county underage could play regular good quality games too to aid their development.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3216 - 13/11/2019 20:05:02    2249527

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Replying To Whammo86:  "My thoughts would be that players would play these instead of club leagues and they'd be meaningful games below intercounty level around the same time.

Players from senior clubs would be available.

In Munster you could have 3 groups of 10 with top 4 from each group going to a knockout stage. That's 13 games maximum.

The biggest thing would be that these teams would be established and that juveniles not playing inter county underage could play regular good quality games too to aid their development."
Provincial leagues for clubs could also be looked at. The Down hurlers play in the Antrim league IIRC. I think clubs in weaker counties should look at combining their leagues. Donegal, Fermanagh, Tyrone, and Derry combined gives you 17 teams.

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 266 - 13/11/2019 21:21:46    2249541

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Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "I was looking at potential divisional sides in Donegal. I've divided the clubs into several divisions based on their barony but there will need to be more amalgamation for it to be realistic."
That's if you look at it trying to make it totally the same for each division. In Cork and Kerry it's largely based on baronies with some larger than others. On another thread people were talking about Templenoe, just across the border from me in Kerry. Templenoe is part of the Kenmare district which is made up of only 4 clubs. Within that, Kenmare themselves are senior, so the divisional team can only pick from 3 clubs, which will be 2 next year as Templenoe will be senior also. That's just the way it is. Beara, just across the border in Cork is also made up of a small number of clubs.
As to the point of dual counties, Cork finish their championships ok and many of their players are dual. Could be why we are not as successful as many of our neighbours in either code in recent years.

BaldyBadger (Cork) - Posts: 199 - 13/11/2019 23:57:37    2249565

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Replying To Westfester:  "What's that about Limerick reviving Divisional teams?
I didn't hear this before"
Didn't myself either, was a disaster a few years ago, every county is different but didn't work in limerick, when last tried.

cityman73 (Limerick) - Posts: 524 - 14/11/2019 19:43:48    2249678

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Sorry if this question has been answered already but can someone explain the Kerry system. Austin Stacks represent them this year, as Championship winners but East Kerry won the county title?? Is there 2 different competitions?

Douglas_44 (Roscommon) - Posts: 225 - 15/11/2019 20:55:25    2249794

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Replying To Douglas_44:  "Sorry if this question has been answered already but can someone explain the Kerry system. Austin Stacks represent them this year, as Championship winners but East Kerry won the county title?? Is there 2 different competitions?"
Stacks won the senior club championship.

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 266 - 15/11/2019 22:02:19    2249804

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Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "Stacks won the senior club championship."
I know, but would senior club champions not represent the county regardless? Sorry, I'm just not familiar with the system so don't quite understand it

Douglas_44 (Roscommon) - Posts: 225 - 16/11/2019 10:52:56    2249841

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Replying To Douglas_44:  "I know, but would senior club champions not represent the county regardless? Sorry, I'm just not familiar with the system so don't quite understand it"
If crokes had won the county championship last weekend they would have represented us in the Munster club.

The senior club champions only go through if a divisional team win the county,

If crokes had won the senior club they would have gone through to Munster regardless of losing the county final last weekend.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 12218 - 16/11/2019 11:47:28    2249847

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Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "If crokes had won the county championship last weekend they would have represented us in the Munster club.

The senior club champions only go through if a divisional team win the county,

If crokes had won the senior club they would have gone through to Munster regardless of losing the county final last weekend."
It's a bit of a mad system though.

Stacks lost their 2 county championship games and have still progressed to Munster.

Surely the club championship shouldn't be completely stand alone from the county championship and the club that progresses furthest qualifies for Munster.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3216 - 16/11/2019 14:09:04    2249867

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Replying To Whammo86:  "It's a bit of a mad system though.

Stacks lost their 2 county championship games and have still progressed to Munster.

Surely the club championship shouldn't be completely stand alone from the county championship and the club that progresses furthest qualifies for Munster."
I suppose that has its own issues in that, say, East Kerry beat South Kerry in the Senior Championship final, both having beaten Stacks and Crokes in the semi finals, how do you decide who goes through then? A 3rd place playoff?!

I think the system is quite good, it means that the Senior Club Championship is not totally devalued by the Senior Championship and at least Stacks go into Munster as the champions of something.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13199 - 16/11/2019 15:20:20    2249870

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Replying To Whammo86:  "It's a bit of a mad system though.

Stacks lost their 2 county championship games and have still progressed to Munster.

Surely the club championship shouldn't be completely stand alone from the county championship and the club that progresses furthest qualifies for Munster."
That's the way it used to be whammo but our county board decided to go down this road,

1 good thing about our system and with East Kerry looking like they will dominate our county championship for the next few years ( especially with Rathmore joining their ranks next year) is that our senior club championship is going to have skin and hair flying in it next April.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 12218 - 16/11/2019 18:40:51    2249892

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Replying To BaldyBadger:  "Imagine a situation where players like Clifford, or many others past do not play county football because they are playing Junior club football and do not get either picked or the chance to develop as quickly, without the divisional system. Same in Cork where many footballers come from smaller clubs, many in the unfashionable areas in terms of football. In Hirling also, captain Seamus Harnedy plays for a tiny club St Ita's, however he is the star of the show for Imokily his division.

I'd be interested to know if lads from other counties feel that players have not got the chance with county teams due to playing for a small club?"
I've heard "don't get a chance" mentioned a lot regarding junior players. This is the bit I don't understand. many players from junior clubs have represented Tyrone over the years. Is it not up to a manager to go and watch a few junior championship games and if someone is kicking 8-9 points a game its clear the player deserves a chance.

The_Fridge (Tyrone) - Posts: 1792 - 21/11/2019 12:20:54    2250656

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Of coarse the manager should do that but they do get an opportunity to see that player play at senior club level in the county and assess if they think they can make the next step up ti inter county. A player getting 8 or 9 points at junior level usually doesnt do that level of scoring at senior level

Defullback2017 (Kerry) - Posts: 6 - 21/11/2019 12:46:15    2250659

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