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Replying To brian: "I'd have to back up this point too. Thomas O'Reilly has been around the panel for 4-5 years and unfortunately he's never really stood up to the plate and delivered consistently to merit a continued starting role. He's good for a score every other game but he's not an inside forward you'd rely on in bigger moments. I don't think there's anything he does which Donal Lenihan couldn't do as inside forward.Ethan Devine in a similar mod has had many chances and I fail to see what he's doing that's significantly better than some members of the panel. Jack O'Connor i believe is more of a half forward and could start at 10/12 in place of Devine. That's 2 free takers immediately into your team and you still have Michael Newman and Shane Walsh who can be added and are free takers.
Lets be honest none of our starting forwards yesterday who were to a man replaced during the match lit the game up. There was no goal threat at all, now the sweepers from Westmeath negated that which i accept but we need to be honest in our assessment and our forwards just aren't good enough. We do not have a marquee forward, never mind a second and third one. Teams can easily shut us down as a collective as they don't have to double mark anyone, the threat doesn't exist, maybe Shane Walsh could be that guy if he's isolated 1 on 1 but he's yet to prove it." Well said Brian. As a unit our six forwards struggled immensely yesterday. Now we could give them the benefit of the doubt and say it was rust, they havent been training properly in months, and no doubt they arent up to scratch fitness-wise and they arent in sync in the way you'd expect after 15/20 training sessions. However there was a bit of a helter skelter, toss of a coin reaction every time we had a half-kickable free. There seemed to be a "please not me" type of reaction out of fellows, not good. The ball was ballooned into the air on several occassions and dragging the keeper up the field for a stab at a kick that could go east or west isnt worth the time in my view. This isn't a good sign. One thing I absolutely hate doing is naming names and putting criticism directly onto people but I think that having Newman, Walsh and Lenihan/Morris on the field would make a difference, which in my view is our best full forward line if they can click, but theres no guarantee they would either, but thats our most powerful and more importantly balanced forward line from what I can see. We've tonnes of genuinely good lads who are 40 to 40 players, and a lot of forwards who are nice, tidy footballers who will knock over the 60/70% scores no bother. Theyre good lads. In fact we have a panel of very capable all rounders. But a good blanket defence and smart sweeper systems will snuff them out. On top of that, defenders who put in a bit of contact and choke up the middle channel will seriously snuff them out. We dont have too many men who can win 50/50 ball and round tacklers, and we've a few other lads who are bordering understrength at this level and will get pushed around at every opportunity by physical defending. A plus remains our ability to bring on good quality subs and know that they have scoring ability. The facts as I see them are we will struggle to compete with teams of a particular style and set-up, and once we meet sides who can successfully stifle our running game between the tram-tracks, we're in big trouble. If they can then get up the field and take their scores, we're in biiig trouble. But none of this is news, we've largely known these things for the last few years.
Young_gael (Meath) - Posts: 596 - 17/05/2021 17:52:30
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Really good post Young_gael
Another thing that bothered me yesterday was bar Fionn Reilly, no one new was given a chance. Now granted that the game was in the melting pot so calmer and more seasoned heads were needed but there seems to be a huge reluctance by Andy and his management team to try anything different. Its the same guys who've been there before doing the same things repeatedly.
On Fionn Reilly, fair play to him for taking his chance but I'd not be in a rush to get him starting next week, I suppose I'm being contradictory in what i'm saying there but he seemed have a bit of something about him that you'd want to bring on steadily.
For me the likes of Thomas o'Reilly, Ethan Devine, Daragh Campion, Shane McEntee, Ronan Ryan all are honest footballers but have been tried repeatedly and they don't stand out as anything special. Shane obviously is not going anywhere but the others are looking at bench spots if we had a full deck.
brian (Meath) - Posts: 1973 - 17/05/2021 18:32:40
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Replying To brian: "Having slept on that game I'm a bit happier with how it went. Two years ago its unlikely we'd have won that game and last year we were in positions to win and snatch a lose from the jaws of victory.
Westmeath came to play to a game plan of stopping Meath from winning rather than trying to win themselves. 14/15 men inside their own half, low risk football. Meath had lots of ball and eventually solved the puzzle, something they haven't been doing in recent years. The bench once more had a huge impact, 0-5 from them and those were the players that provided the injection of pace and a bit of power to get us over the line.
Don't forget this match was also won without probably 4 starters in James McEntee, Ronan Jones, Michael Newman and Shane Walsh, that shows there's plenty more to come.
Now that's not to say the game, team and management weren't without fault. Things seemed a bit lethargic and the team seemed very leggy but that's more likely down to work being done off the pitch to improve fitness. Niall Ronan seems to be building up their fitness year on year. The team lacks any instinct to break quickly and kick pass into the full forward line. Jordan Morris and Thomas O' Reilly really got no service during the game. Yes Westmeath deployed a sweeper but surely we push up on the sweeper or we should have extra men available on the break which we never seemed to have. The team also lacks any instinct to make an on field decision and when they do it's invaribly wasted so i can see why its that way. Matthew Costello had two examples i can think off and i'm not being critical of him i just remember these. First half he had the ball and balloned it wide as there was no one free or giving him an option, so he took a pot shot. Second half he'd a great chance on the break and could've headed for goal but came back inside and into traffic and the chance was gone. the better teams exploit those chances with quick direct ball inside and trust that the inside players can win ball and get goals. We need to work on that aspect of the game.
Andy Colgan deserves a bit of credit, he had a solid performance but Westmeath conceded a lot of kick outs and we'll face teams who won't allow that and will press up on us. His keeping and shot stopping when needed was good.
Freetaking will cost us games again this year and Andy has to accept this is no one's fault bar his own. I think i counted 6/7 different players having a go. This is patently not good enough and holds us back severely and leaves 4-6 scores a game on the pitch. I said earlier in this thread surely we could've had Morris and whoever else working with a designated kicking coach but it's been left up to the lads to decide amongst themselves as to what to do. In this day and age it's criminal act by management not having this detailed to the nth degree. Morris, O'Reilly, O'Sullivan, Devine, McMahon and Colgan all took free's at different times. There might have been others. How can management not have one player on free's, even if it's one from the right and one from the left. It's a disgrace which was encapsulated in the free Ethan Devine took, he looked like a lad kicking the ball for the very first time. That's not on him, that's on management for putting him in the situation.
We move onto Down and this is another huge game. Down will play a similar brand of containing football and we need to be better able to break them down. Wouldn't make too many changes, the bench impact will be needed again. But sort the god damn free taking out. If that mean's we start Donal Lenihan and all he's in for is free's then so be it, at least he's a reliable kicker of the ball." All fair points, taking into account this is our first league win in over two years, and first game since Leinster Final. Priority is remain in Div two and avoid dropping to second tier of championship football next year. Bonus is promotion and building panel that can compete at that level. At least attempts were made to address some long standing issues so credit where its due. Colgan had good outing, midfield were competitive and management made required changes, something they failed to do in past. . Not quite the rousing finish of times past, however heads did not drop and we finished strongly and did not panic. As for Costello think he is better playing on the left side and may see him there next week. Free taking is now the major issue, this is a long standing problem and its a long time since Meath had someone of required standard. Micky Newman has mixed the good with the bad and his hip injuries may rule him out from long range frees (placed balls). Therefore Donal Lenihan replacing TOR is a risk free option as the latter has been given his fair share of chances and not produced the goods, either in open play or from frees.
seadog54 (Meath) - Posts: 2196 - 17/05/2021 18:38:20
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Replying To brian: "Really good post Young_gael
Another thing that bothered me yesterday was bar Fionn Reilly, no one new was given a chance. Now granted that the game was in the melting pot so calmer and more seasoned heads were needed but there seems to be a huge reluctance by Andy and his management team to try anything different. Its the same guys who've been there before doing the same things repeatedly.
On Fionn Reilly, fair play to him for taking his chance but I'd not be in a rush to get him starting next week, I suppose I'm being contradictory in what i'm saying there but he seemed have a bit of something about him that you'd want to bring on steadily.
For me the likes of Thomas o'Reilly, Ethan Devine, Daragh Campion, Shane McEntee, Ronan Ryan all are honest footballers but have been tried repeatedly and they don't stand out as anything special. Shane obviously is not going anywhere but the others are looking at bench spots if we had a full deck." Had sympathy for Campion yesterday, injury has meant he got little exposure at this level and seemed very nervous, along with O Reilly will drop to bench next week. Two week ago it looked like our long standing injury woes were behind us at last and for once we would have a fully fit panel to pick from, then lost Jones and Walsh, with no sign of James Mac or Hickey in match day squad. Credit has to be given to the lads who came on, a mix of youth Scully, Reilly and Conlon ( O Connor and Dillon got late runs also) and the more experienced heads Wallace and McMahon.
seadog54 (Meath) - Posts: 2196 - 17/05/2021 19:30:15
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Replying To brian: "Really good post Young_gael
Another thing that bothered me yesterday was bar Fionn Reilly, no one new was given a chance. Now granted that the game was in the melting pot so calmer and more seasoned heads were needed but there seems to be a huge reluctance by Andy and his management team to try anything different. Its the same guys who've been there before doing the same things repeatedly.
On Fionn Reilly, fair play to him for taking his chance but I'd not be in a rush to get him starting next week, I suppose I'm being contradictory in what i'm saying there but he seemed have a bit of something about him that you'd want to bring on steadily.
For me the likes of Thomas o'Reilly, Ethan Devine, Daragh Campion, Shane McEntee, Ronan Ryan all are honest footballers but have been tried repeatedly and they don't stand out as anything special. Shane obviously is not going anywhere but the others are looking at bench spots if we had a full deck." Do think it's harsh to have Campion on this list. He played in the 2019 league and was really good in the early games and created a spark. Then he only started one game in the championship and it was against Kerry where he got 1-1. With injury I don't think he played in 2020. Now he was bad on Sunday. But I wouldn't be writing him off at all. Still think he has super talent.
LeitrimRoyal99 (Meath) - Posts: 1527 - 17/05/2021 21:33:46
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Accept I'm maybe being a little harsh on Campion but i just don't seem to see the player a lot of people see. And to be fair to him he did miss most of 2020 so its not fair to overly hammer him.
brian (Meath) - Posts: 1973 - 18/05/2021 09:26:49
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Hearing rumours that Donal Lenihan may have left the panel
LeitrimRoyal99 (Meath) - Posts: 1527 - 18/05/2021 12:23:31
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Replying To LeitrimRoyal99: "Hearing rumours that Donal Lenihan may have left the panel" If correct its hard to blame him, sitting on bench and looking at standard of forward play in general and free taking in particular.
seadog54 (Meath) - Posts: 2196 - 18/05/2021 12:51:21
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Replying To seadog54: "If correct its hard to blame him, sitting on bench and looking at standard of forward play in general and free taking in particular." While I get ur point and indeed his if that is the case, it's a pity. That been said I suppose it is hard to see him dislodge any of the potential starters ahead of him barring injury, when Newman and walsh return he probably will be pushed down further.
I mean who would you drop for him if we had Newman, walsh Morris, O'Sullivan campion Devine McMahon and Conlon all fit ? Throw in the two wallace's (Eamonn had his best outing in a Meath shirt in years when he came on ). So I can see his point even if it's disappointing for all concerned
royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 19449 - 18/05/2021 13:19:00
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Replying To royaldunne: "While I get ur point and indeed his if that is the case, it's a pity. That been said I suppose it is hard to see him dislodge any of the potential starters ahead of him barring injury, when Newman and walsh return he probably will be pushed down further.
I mean who would you drop for him if we had Newman, walsh Morris, O'Sullivan campion Devine McMahon and Conlon all fit ? Throw in the two wallace's (Eamonn had his best outing in a Meath shirt in years when he came on ). So I can see his point even if it's disappointing for all concerned" I'd disagree with this entirely. Lenihan is one of the best inside forwards in the county and a goal threat. Last Sunday we didn't have one. He's a consistent free taker, something we sorely lacked on Sunday. He can win his own ball and create something from nothing. None of our starting inside forward line did that at any stage. He's something different to what we have but must've gotten sick of busting his ass for no chances. And tbf to Donal he seems to have no issue with calling things as he sees them. Think it was the Sligo game in 2018 and Andy was lambasting him from the sideline and he'd no trouble telling Andy where to go. He was coming out to the 45 trying to get on ball and Andy kept screaming for him to get back in and Donal responded along the lines of how can i get ball when you don't let players kick it into me. Fair play to him for being ballsy enough to call it like that.
We're very quick to anoint a new star in Jordan Morris (Which we did the summer before with Shane Walsh) and disregard those slightly older and solid players. Morris whilst he'd a good 4-5 game stretch late last year was poor on Sunday and still has a bit to go and has to prove he can do it consistently year on year. Not to say he won't do it but lets ease of in the expectations on him.
For me personally, Lenihan is only behind O'Sullivan and Newman in terms of best forwards in the county. He's a proven talent year on year for Dunboyne and there's not many close to the same standard as him. Walsh and McMahon would be right there with him too. He's a far better player than Campion, Devine, both Wallaces and Banty. I'd not count Costello as a forward yet as there's no reason that he might not slip back into the half back line if everyone was available.
brian (Meath) - Posts: 1973 - 18/05/2021 14:23:12
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Anyone else hear donal lenihan quit the panel? I cannot believe some of the forwards that get on ahead of him in this team so easy to see where the frustration lies.
redser123 (Meath) - Posts: 404 - 18/05/2021 16:14:06
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Replying To redser123: "Anyone else hear donal lenihan quit the panel? I cannot believe some of the forwards that get on ahead of him in this team so easy to see where the frustration lies." Leitrim Royal mentioned it earlier few posts above about it.
brian (Meath) - Posts: 1973 - 18/05/2021 17:13:19
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Replying To brian: "I'd disagree with this entirely. Lenihan is one of the best inside forwards in the county and a goal threat. Last Sunday we didn't have one. He's a consistent free taker, something we sorely lacked on Sunday. He can win his own ball and create something from nothing. None of our starting inside forward line did that at any stage. He's something different to what we have but must've gotten sick of busting his ass for no chances. And tbf to Donal he seems to have no issue with calling things as he sees them. Think it was the Sligo game in 2018 and Andy was lambasting him from the sideline and he'd no trouble telling Andy where to go. He was coming out to the 45 trying to get on ball and Andy kept screaming for him to get back in and Donal responded along the lines of how can i get ball when you don't let players kick it into me. Fair play to him for being ballsy enough to call it like that.
We're very quick to anoint a new star in Jordan Morris (Which we did the summer before with Shane Walsh) and disregard those slightly older and solid players. Morris whilst he'd a good 4-5 game stretch late last year was poor on Sunday and still has a bit to go and has to prove he can do it consistently year on year. Not to say he won't do it but lets ease of in the expectations on him.
For me personally, Lenihan is only behind O'Sullivan and Newman in terms of best forwards in the county. He's a proven talent year on year for Dunboyne and there's not many close to the same standard as him. Walsh and McMahon would be right there with him too. He's a far better player than Campion, Devine, both Wallaces and Banty. I'd not count Costello as a forward yet as there's no reason that he might not slip back into the half back line if everyone was available." Yeah im with you. Lenihan is a better all-rounder than any of those other lads, at least when he's up front and can do his thing. He has more power in his running and he's the best free taker we've had in years. He's a proper forward's forward. Also has an eye for goals.
If news of his leaving the panel is true, I wholeheartedly understand why. It couldn't have been easy to watch what he would've been watching last sunday in any case. It was bordering on fiasco territory lads, esp for division 2 football. Our final product just wasn't good. Its very hard to even sum up how we managed to win that game. Certainly wasnt down to superior forward play.
He seems to be under-rated. Players have come in ahead of him periodically for the last 3/4 seasons and we've trialled many free takers as well and many of these lads have since dropped off completely and yet he's still involved and still on the bench... there seems to be alterior problems somewhere in general, be it regarding familiar selection, cliquey selection, personalities, lack of confidence, even regression... or maybe its just rustiness.
If the man is dropping out or not, the rumours are enough for me to re-iterate what I said before the game, from what I'm seeing, the signs coming out of this camp aren't good.
Young_gael (Meath) - Posts: 596 - 18/05/2021 17:42:52
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Replying To brian: "I'd disagree with this entirely. Lenihan is one of the best inside forwards in the county and a goal threat. Last Sunday we didn't have one. He's a consistent free taker, something we sorely lacked on Sunday. He can win his own ball and create something from nothing. None of our starting inside forward line did that at any stage. He's something different to what we have but must've gotten sick of busting his ass for no chances. And tbf to Donal he seems to have no issue with calling things as he sees them. Think it was the Sligo game in 2018 and Andy was lambasting him from the sideline and he'd no trouble telling Andy where to go. He was coming out to the 45 trying to get on ball and Andy kept screaming for him to get back in and Donal responded along the lines of how can i get ball when you don't let players kick it into me. Fair play to him for being ballsy enough to call it like that.
We're very quick to anoint a new star in Jordan Morris (Which we did the summer before with Shane Walsh) and disregard those slightly older and solid players. Morris whilst he'd a good 4-5 game stretch late last year was poor on Sunday and still has a bit to go and has to prove he can do it consistently year on year. Not to say he won't do it but lets ease of in the expectations on him.
For me personally, Lenihan is only behind O'Sullivan and Newman in terms of best forwards in the county. He's a proven talent year on year for Dunboyne and there's not many close to the same standard as him. Walsh and McMahon would be right there with him too. He's a far better player than Campion, Devine, both Wallaces and Banty. I'd not count Costello as a forward yet as there's no reason that he might not slip back into the half back line if everyone was available." Hard to disagree with that. But is he same player since he came back from his travels? I've not seen enough of him but he was too fwd in county before that.
Crinigan (Meath) - Posts: 1352 - 18/05/2021 18:22:24
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Replying To royaldunne: "While I get ur point and indeed his if that is the case, it's a pity. That been said I suppose it is hard to see him dislodge any of the potential starters ahead of him barring injury, when Newman and walsh return he probably will be pushed down further.
I mean who would you drop for him if we had Newman, walsh Morris, O'Sullivan campion Devine McMahon and Conlon all fit ? Throw in the two wallace's (Eamonn had his best outing in a Meath shirt in years when he came on ). So I can see his point even if it's disappointing for all concerned" We have no forward who can be depended on to kick 3/4 points from play, Newman may come back in latter stages of league, however after serious hip injuries its unlikely he will be tasked with placed balls. Walsh and Morris yet to deliver on promising potential. Devine introduced more as a option for kickouts and does not look like a lad who is going to contribute much to scoreboard. Therefore I thought DL would have been a great option, both from open play and free kicks and surprised he did not get game time on Sunday. We cannot afford to ignore a forward with proven ability.
seadog54 (Meath) - Posts: 2196 - 18/05/2021 18:45:05
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Lads really?? We're living in the past if that's what you think. Morris still kicked 3 frees the other day and was heavily marked out of game. Donal is a good player. No doubt But no way would I have him ahead of walsh Newman O'Sullivan Morris Devine McMahon even campion.
Anyway that's my view on it. I'll leave it at that.
royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 19449 - 18/05/2021 19:56:45
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Replying To royaldunne: "Lads really?? We're living in the past if that's what you think. Morris still kicked 3 frees the other day and was heavily marked out of game. Donal is a good player. No doubt But no way would I have him ahead of walsh Newman O'Sullivan Morris Devine McMahon even campion.
Anyway that's my view on it. I'll leave it at that." Rd as they say opinions are like you know what's....everyone has got one.
Strongly disagree that we're living in the past. Morris kicked frees anyone could've kicked, I reckon you'd have put them over yourself. He did sweet flip all during the rest of the game. He wasn't marked out of the game, he didn't do enough to influence the game and his marker the #4 was a clear winner, who also impacted the game heavily going the other way. Morris will face better markers over the season, teams will have the chance to plan for him and hewill need to up his game and show he's not a flash in the pan and a genuine player. Good players don't make excuses of being marked out of the games, the best find ways to use double marking to their teams advantage.
Comparing Donal Lenihan a genuine inside forward to campion, Devine and O'Sullivan all half forwards is like comparing apples to watermelons. Donal has the nous to have exploited the heavy marking on him to get others into the game. As I've said over the last 5-7 years there hasn't been a more consistent and reliable club player in Meath than him and if we can afford to turn our noses ups this ability more fools us. There were multiple players on Sunday who should've been outside the starting 15 with Lenihan inside it and starting.
brian (Meath) - Posts: 1973 - 18/05/2021 23:10:17
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Replying To Young_gael: "Yeah im with you. Lenihan is a better all-rounder than any of those other lads, at least when he's up front and can do his thing. He has more power in his running and he's the best free taker we've had in years. He's a proper forward's forward. Also has an eye for goals.
If news of his leaving the panel is true, I wholeheartedly understand why. It couldn't have been easy to watch what he would've been watching last sunday in any case. It was bordering on fiasco territory lads, esp for division 2 football. Our final product just wasn't good. Its very hard to even sum up how we managed to win that game. Certainly wasnt down to superior forward play.
He seems to be under-rated. Players have come in ahead of him periodically for the last 3/4 seasons and we've trialled many free takers as well and many of these lads have since dropped off completely and yet he's still involved and still on the bench... there seems to be alterior problems somewhere in general, be it regarding familiar selection, cliquey selection, personalities, lack of confidence, even regression... or maybe its just rustiness.
If the man is dropping out or not, the rumours are enough for me to re-iterate what I said before the game, from what I'm seeing, the signs coming out of this camp aren't good." Have to agree.
Lenihan is in top 3 inside forwards in Meath, alongside Newman and McKeever (who's already fallen out with McEntee ). I just assumed he's carrying an injury and that's why he didn't play much last year for the county but if he's been so badly treated that he's left, then that's a disgrace. He's not the kind of fella to throw toys out of the pram.
Crinigan (Meath) - Posts: 1352 - 19/05/2021 10:47:13
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Replying To brian: "Rd as they say opinions are like you know what's....everyone has got one.
Strongly disagree that we're living in the past. Morris kicked frees anyone could've kicked, I reckon you'd have put them over yourself. He did sweet flip all during the rest of the game. He wasn't marked out of the game, he didn't do enough to influence the game and his marker the #4 was a clear winner, who also impacted the game heavily going the other way. Morris will face better markers over the season, teams will have the chance to plan for him and hewill need to up his game and show he's not a flash in the pan and a genuine player. Good players don't make excuses of being marked out of the games, the best find ways to use double marking to their teams advantage.
Comparing Donal Lenihan a genuine inside forward to campion, Devine and O'Sullivan all half forwards is like comparing apples to watermelons. Donal has the nous to have exploited the heavy marking on him to get others into the game. As I've said over the last 5-7 years there hasn't been a more consistent and reliable club player in Meath than him and if we can afford to turn our noses ups this ability more fools us. There were multiple players on Sunday who should've been outside the starting 15 with Lenihan inside it and starting." I like donal so I'm not going to go down any road with that. He has been a tremendous servant , the only thing I will say is the year off probably cost him his spot. Anyway as u say opinions differ. Best of luck to him in whatever he decides
royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 19449 - 19/05/2021 11:50:06
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Replying To Crinigan: "Have to agree.
Lenihan is in top 3 inside forwards in Meath, alongside Newman and McKeever (who's already fallen out with McEntee ). I just assumed he's carrying an injury and that's why he didn't play much last year for the county but if he's been so badly treated that he's left, then that's a disgrace. He's not the kind of fella to throw toys out of the pram." How did Newman fall out with Andy. He literally had a hip operation months ago and is still going to come back soon. Doesn't sound like he's playing for manager whom he doesn't like
LeitrimRoyal99 (Meath) - Posts: 1527 - 19/05/2021 12:31:59
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