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CELTIC CHALLENGE - DOWN U17 HURLERS

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Replying To bricktop:  "What, like an U21 "development" Squad?

I'm sure you're aware that there's no U21 intercounty hurling league in any province, It's purely knock out championship as those lads now out of minor (U17) are supposed to be playing adult club hurling.

It happens in Cork, Clare, Galway, Tipp and so on and as much as Down has some unique circumstances, league club hurling is the only show in town. Our leagues are weak and inconsistent, the Tain leagues are a CONC joke, but at least you can get regular fixtures most of the time.

Let's hear your "outside the box" solution."
but at least you can get regular fixtures most of the time.

In Antrim that was meant to read.

bricktop (Down) - Posts: 2308 - 22/06/2018 11:32:32    2113721

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Replying To bricktop:  "but at least you can get regular fixtures most of the time.

In Antrim that was meant to read."
'It happens in Cork, Clare, Galway, Tipp and so on and as much as Down has some unique circumstances, league club hurling is the only show in town.'

No point making comparisons with the likes of Cork, Tipp etc!! We do not have anything like the same player pools as those counties and therefore are at a great disadvantage from the outset!

And, of course the Down squad would be a development squad! We'd be in the business of developing players for the senior ranks!! This could be run over a 12 week period each year, that's hardly a big ask! Matches could easily be arranged against clubs, counties or even university sides!!
Or we can do as you suggest and let nature take its course!

john101 (Down) - Posts: 91 - 22/06/2018 21:08:56    2113800

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"This could be run over a 12 week period each year, that's hardly a big ask! Matches could easily be arranged against clubs, counties or even university sides!! "

12 weeks out of the season! are you serious? There's hardly a free day never mind 12 weeks. Total nonsense.

Frank Mitchell (Down) - Posts: 1057 - 23/06/2018 07:54:41    2113837

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Antrim u21 championship has already started and they are at the semi final stages. But In down? Nope. They'll just start u21 championship in October when no one cares about it.

RedDog68 (Down) - Posts: 160 - 23/06/2018 14:49:23    2113897

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Replying To RedDog68:  "Antrim u21 championship has already started and they are at the semi final stages. But In down? Nope. They'll just start u21 championship in October when no one cares about it."
Knockout??

Most teams get one game, correct?

How does that develop anyone?


Where are we to get these twelve weeks John101?

Remember when you're off playing various clubs and universities that you could possibly be playing without the intercounty senior hurlers and even then club players are left behind.

I didn't say let nature take its course. I said to fix the adult club fixtures. Guarantee a lad at 19 years of age one game a week, minimum and a high enough standard to push them on. That's not possible in Down so the likes of Liatroim or even an amalgamation from that area get into the Antrim leagues and commit to it. South Down could even look at the Meath club leagues as they're a really good standard and closer, but no lets push the elitist agenda again.

bricktop (Down) - Posts: 2308 - 25/06/2018 14:48:31    2114712

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Replying To bricktop:  "Knockout??

Most teams get one game, correct?

How does that develop anyone?


Where are we to get these twelve weeks John101?

Remember when you're off playing various clubs and universities that you could possibly be playing without the intercounty senior hurlers and even then club players are left behind.

I didn't say let nature take its course. I said to fix the adult club fixtures. Guarantee a lad at 19 years of age one game a week, minimum and a high enough standard to push them on. That's not possible in Down so the likes of Liatroim or even an amalgamation from that area get into the Antrim leagues and commit to it. South Down could even look at the Meath club leagues as they're a really good standard and closer, but no lets push the elitist agenda again."
Elitist agenda! Why have a county team at all then! Surely a county senior team is an Elite team of sorts! Using your logic then, maybe it would be best to scrape the whole county thing completely? This silly Elite stuff is taking away from the club stuff anyway! Parhaps you can answer this question then, What sport doesn't have an Elite stream of some sort or other? I've a brilliant idea! Maybe we should just have senior Go games??

That plan that you've outlined about club teams in Down working their way up the Antrim leagues is already taking place! It's not bearing very much fruit at the minute! Suppose we could give it another ten years or so and see what happens?
Not much point discussing this topic anymore! Down are only heading in one direction... Down!

john101 (Down) - Posts: 91 - 25/06/2018 20:27:20    2114940

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Is that the toys being thrown out of the pram I hear?

Your solution was to create some sort of development/elite squad of 18/19/20 year olds to train and play friendlies all around the country, is it?

Can you not see any issues with that?

Generating senior standard hurlers takes years and years and years as I've consistently on this thread and if anything the Bredagh monopoly at U14 they had for several years has proven my point. No sign of an U16 or Minor championship to compliment that and hence why they're still reliant on journeymen transfers at senior to get a team out.

An underage hurler in the Ards hits 17 years of age is expected to play adult hurling, no ifs or buts. It's the same in Loughgiel, Cushendall and Dunloy, so why would you want it to be any different for the darlings the other side of the water or the leafy suburbs of South Belfast?

bricktop (Down) - Posts: 2308 - 26/06/2018 13:10:02    2115347

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Replying To bricktop:  "Is that the toys being thrown out of the pram I hear?

Your solution was to create some sort of development/elite squad of 18/19/20 year olds to train and play friendlies all around the country, is it?

Can you not see any issues with that?

Generating senior standard hurlers takes years and years and years as I've consistently on this thread and if anything the Bredagh monopoly at U14 they had for several years has proven my point. No sign of an U16 or Minor championship to compliment that and hence why they're still reliant on journeymen transfers at senior to get a team out.

An underage hurler in the Ards hits 17 years of age is expected to play adult hurling, no ifs or buts. It's the same in Loughgiel, Cushendall and Dunloy, so why would you want it to be any different for the darlings the other side of the water or the leafy suburbs of South Belfast?"
So is the answer to the continued stagnation / decline of Down hurling to have all 17 year olds playing adult hurling? FYI This years Bredagh minor team won an U16 championship and if they can get a full squad out may surprise a few.

Profit1 (Antrim) - Posts: 37 - 26/06/2018 14:55:36    2115438

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Replying To bricktop:  "Is that the toys being thrown out of the pram I hear?

Your solution was to create some sort of development/elite squad of 18/19/20 year olds to train and play friendlies all around the country, is it?

Can you not see any issues with that?

Generating senior standard hurlers takes years and years and years as I've consistently on this thread and if anything the Bredagh monopoly at U14 they had for several years has proven my point. No sign of an U16 or Minor championship to compliment that and hence why they're still reliant on journeymen transfers at senior to get a team out.

An underage hurler in the Ards hits 17 years of age is expected to play adult hurling, no ifs or buts. It's the same in Loughgiel, Cushendall and Dunloy, so why would you want it to be any different for the darlings the other side of the water or the leafy suburbs of South Belfast?"
So is the answer to the continued stagnation / decline of Down hurling to have all 17 year olds playing adult hurling? FYI This years Bredagh minor team won an U16 championship and if they can get a full squad out may surprise a few.

Profit1 (Antrim) - Posts: 37 - 26/06/2018 14:56:35    2115439

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Replying To Profit1:  "So is the answer to the continued stagnation / decline of Down hurling to have all 17 year olds playing adult hurling? FYI This years Bredagh minor team won an U16 championship and if they can get a full squad out may surprise a few."
None more so that themselves.

Who said do nothing?

I am suggesting that the places with a serious aspiration of proper senior hurling need to get into the Antrim leagues and drive on from there.

Those who are already in the Antrim leagues need to develop a link between their juvenile teams and their adult teams where it's deemed a normal progression path to develop rather than walk away at 16 or 17 years of age.

Don't go putting the onus back on an already inept Co Board or you really are expecting nothing to change.

bricktop (Down) - Posts: 2308 - 26/06/2018 16:07:33    2115477

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I think every club has aspirations to progress players through to senior level, if it were just that simple. The point is how has following the tradition model developed Down Hurling? We will have only one club side in Antrim Division 1 next year and we continue to under achieve at county level- It doesn't appear to be working at any level

Profit1 (Antrim) - Posts: 37 - 26/06/2018 16:35:50    2115499

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Replying To Profit1:  "I think every club has aspirations to progress players through to senior level, if it were just that simple. The point is how has following the tradition model developed Down Hurling? We will have only one club side in Antrim Division 1 next year and we continue to under achieve at county level- It doesn't appear to be working at any level"
It isn't working because the three Ards clubs still carry the burden of promoting Down hurling in a serious manner and we're all pretty weak if the truth was told.

The likes of Magic and Dule are still the go-to players in two of our teams and they're coming to the end of their careers.
That tells you where we're at.
Liatroim are Liatroim and will always provide one or two good intercounty hurlers and the odd one will arise from Clonduff/Newry/Kilclief/Ballela and so forth.
That also hasn't changed and we've had development squads for the last number of years.

Tell me how they're delivering as I don't see it here in McKenna park or anywhere else in the Ards?

bricktop (Down) - Posts: 2308 - 05/07/2018 08:27:34    2118720

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Replying To Profit1:  "I think every club has aspirations to progress players through to senior level, if it were just that simple. The point is how has following the tradition model developed Down Hurling? We will have only one club side in Antrim Division 1 next year and we continue to under achieve at county level- It doesn't appear to be working at any level"
I wouldn't be so sure on only one club in fiv 1 possible that Rossa could be brought into the relegation battle depending on how they go against down sides

ianog (Down) - Posts: 394 - 06/07/2018 05:28:31    2119005

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U21;s shipped a 12 point defeat on Saturday.

That's it for the year. Sean O'g will be struggling for positives this year, but no better man for polishing a turk.

bricktop (Down) - Posts: 2308 - 09/07/2018 11:01:48    2119917

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Replying To bricktop:  "U21;s shipped a 12 point defeat on Saturday.

That's it for the year. Sean O'g will be struggling for positives this year, but no better man for polishing a turk."
Where u at the game Brick? If u were u would know no shipping about it....game ended 2-20 to 2-10 but harsh reflextion on a game that was 1-5 to 0-10 at half time with kerry getting two points in injury time to take the lead after Down were denied a stonewall penalty........unfortunately Down missed a great goal chance at start of2md half and straight from the clearance the ball literally bounced staright over a defenders head and left the kerry forward straight through on goal......they got a soft penalty straight after it when down were still feeling sorry for themselves and game was transformed.......in a 10min period Kerry scored 2-3 to no score, that proved the difference........down were missing 3-4 key players due to hols and injuries which didnt help and surely a round robin competition woupd be better as Down gave a very good kerry team what will be their best game of the competition.....that kerry team had 12 m donagh cup panellists and five starters including four in the forwards.....a good side and just unfortunate to draw them in firast round.......

PaudieSull1 (Down) - Posts: 680 - 09/07/2018 14:45:05    2120037

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Replying To PaudieSull1:  "Where u at the game Brick? If u were u would know no shipping about it....game ended 2-20 to 2-10 but harsh reflextion on a game that was 1-5 to 0-10 at half time with kerry getting two points in injury time to take the lead after Down were denied a stonewall penalty........unfortunately Down missed a great goal chance at start of2md half and straight from the clearance the ball literally bounced staright over a defenders head and left the kerry forward straight through on goal......they got a soft penalty straight after it when down were still feeling sorry for themselves and game was transformed.......in a 10min period Kerry scored 2-3 to no score, that proved the difference........down were missing 3-4 key players due to hols and injuries which didnt help and surely a round robin competition woupd be better as Down gave a very good kerry team what will be their best game of the competition.....that kerry team had 12 m donagh cup panellists and five starters including four in the forwards.....a good side and just unfortunate to draw them in firast round......."
When you're calling up 18 year olds a few nights before the game it was never going to end well.

Every team will be without "key players" hence the reason you don't just develop an elite pool of players at the expense of others and build a large panel to absorb these issues such as injuries and holidays. I'd be surprised if Kerry lads don't get injured as well.

Fair play to the lads who battered away. All credit to them.

I didn't get to the game. I was supporting my neighbouring club who were running a tournament and also saw the Ports getting cut to shreds by Nenagh. Hence I know that senior hurling in Down in very weak and we can't expect much more from our intercounty representatives.

On a separate issue I happened to notice the lack of competition throughout our underage set ups with the possible exception of minor where its maybe a two or three horse race between ourselves, Ballygalget and Bredagh at a squeeze.

U16, Ports currently undefeated and hot favourites for championship, No one getting within 10 points off them. Bredagh probably next but not close.

U14, Ports again hammering everyone in Down out the gate. 20 plus points the norm.

U12, Ballygalget hammering everyone out the gate to an extent they don't bother to play their older lads in this league and still managed to beat Portaferry and Liatroim.

It's hardly a healthy situation is it?

bricktop (Down) - Posts: 2308 - 10/07/2018 11:24:56    2120317

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Replying To bricktop:  "When you're calling up 18 year olds a few nights before the game it was never going to end well.

Every team will be without "key players" hence the reason you don't just develop an elite pool of players at the expense of others and build a large panel to absorb these issues such as injuries and holidays. I'd be surprised if Kerry lads don't get injured as well.

Fair play to the lads who battered away. All credit to them.

I didn't get to the game. I was supporting my neighbouring club who were running a tournament and also saw the Ports getting cut to shreds by Nenagh. Hence I know that senior hurling in Down in very weak and we can't expect much more from our intercounty representatives.

On a separate issue I happened to notice the lack of competition throughout our underage set ups with the possible exception of minor where its maybe a two or three horse race between ourselves, Ballygalget and Bredagh at a squeeze.

U16, Ports currently undefeated and hot favourites for championship, No one getting within 10 points off them. Bredagh probably next but not close.

U14, Ports again hammering everyone in Down out the gate. 20 plus points the norm.

U12, Ballygalget hammering everyone out the gate to an extent they don't bother to play their older lads in this league and still managed to beat Portaferry and Liatroim.

It's hardly a healthy situation is it?"
Bricktop - not going to take issue with most of your post but the claim an 18 yr old was called up a few days before the game is simply untrue and indicative of the lies and half truths that are spread about some of our inter county teams......note you have no comment on the 18 yr old put under pressure to stay for a club challenge game rather than attend with his county team mates a training weekend.........as I said no issue with most of your post but the claim about the 18 yr old is simply not true..........

PaudieSull1 (Down) - Posts: 680 - 12/07/2018 10:06:55    2120900

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Replying To PaudieSull1:  "Bricktop - not going to take issue with most of your post but the claim an 18 yr old was called up a few days before the game is simply untrue and indicative of the lies and half truths that are spread about some of our inter county teams......note you have no comment on the 18 yr old put under pressure to stay for a club challenge game rather than attend with his county team mates a training weekend.........as I said no issue with most of your post but the claim about the 18 yr old is simply not true.........."
Depends on how both the challenge game and training weekend were arranged and communicated.

Which one was communicated first? If I was a club manager and arranged a challenge game only for a county management team to then arrange a training weekend then I'd be annoyed. If as a club manager I was aware of said training weekend and went ahead and arranged a challenge game then I've only myself to blame and no right to put players in that situation.

I can see both sides.

bricktop (Down) - Posts: 2308 - 13/07/2018 11:48:53    2121277

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Replying To PaudieSull1:  "Where u at the game Brick? If u were u would know no shipping about it....game ended 2-20 to 2-10 but harsh reflextion on a game that was 1-5 to 0-10 at half time with kerry getting two points in injury time to take the lead after Down were denied a stonewall penalty........unfortunately Down missed a great goal chance at start of2md half and straight from the clearance the ball literally bounced staright over a defenders head and left the kerry forward straight through on goal......they got a soft penalty straight after it when down were still feeling sorry for themselves and game was transformed.......in a 10min period Kerry scored 2-3 to no score, that proved the difference........down were missing 3-4 key players due to hols and injuries which didnt help and surely a round robin competition woupd be better as Down gave a very good kerry team what will be their best game of the competition.....that kerry team had 12 m donagh cup panellists and five starters including four in the forwards.....a good side and just unfortunate to draw them in firast round......."
I see as predicted Kerry strolled to the u21 B All Ireland......beat Derry 2-20 to 0-11 despite missing four clear goal chances in first half and playing whole if 2nd half with 14 men.....

Kerry beat Kildare in Q final 2-22 to 2-10, having been ahead by 12 Pts at half time in that game and strolled their semi final by 30 Pts.......our lads were very unlucky to draw them in first round particularly given the players we were missing on the day due to holidays and injuries........Kerry team we played was the same as that which lined out today in the All Ireland final.......

Little consolation to the lads but they have the consolation of knowing that even with a depleted side we gave them the best game of their campaign.......the reality is thus competition should be round robin for development purposes as frustrating that luck of draw can dictate your progress the way it did this year.....

PaudieSull1 (Down) - Posts: 680 - 05/08/2018 01:43:53    2129191

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Replying To PaudieSull1:  "I see as predicted Kerry strolled to the u21 B All Ireland......beat Derry 2-20 to 0-11 despite missing four clear goal chances in first half and playing whole if 2nd half with 14 men.....

Kerry beat Kildare in Q final 2-22 to 2-10, having been ahead by 12 Pts at half time in that game and strolled their semi final by 30 Pts.......our lads were very unlucky to draw them in first round particularly given the players we were missing on the day due to holidays and injuries........Kerry team we played was the same as that which lined out today in the All Ireland final.......

Little consolation to the lads but they have the consolation of knowing that even with a depleted side we gave them the best game of their campaign.......the reality is thus competition should be round robin for development purposes as frustrating that luck of draw can dictate your progress the way it did this year....."
Watched the game myself, Kerry were never under any pressure really! And as you pointed out paudie, on paper, Down probably gave them more of a game than any other team in the B championship! Hopefully next year it won't be the same old tried and tested formula of bringing the lads together for a few training sessions a couple of weeks before the championship! Although I fear history will repeat itself!

john101 (Down) - Posts: 91 - 05/08/2018 09:37:53    2129236

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