Westmeath Forum

Westmeath Refereeing

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Replying To bok1:  "Sorry I missed this post earlier, interesting that they changed needs must I suppose.

What do you think about refereeing in Westmeath as a whole?

Enjoyable? Encourage others to take it up?"
The standard of refereeing in Westmeath is about the same as every other county from what I have seen. There is no doubt the referees know the rules but the big problem is the application of the rules. The simplest fouls in the game are technical fouls, over carrying, more than 4 steps, tossing the ball from one hand to the other before hand passing, foul hand passing... If these decisions are not called correctly it is almost impossible to get the big decisions right, black card decisions etc. The biggest fault with black cards lately is the referee is under so much pressure to give a black card for everything. Have seen several incidents of black cards for accidental trips, blocks. A good referee should know by the player's reaction if the 'foul' was deliberate, which it must be to warrant a black card. There are too many black cards given for yellow card infractions.
From my point of view I enjoy the refereeing, and there is some abuse but that is to be expected, especially in derby matches. No matter what decision is given one side or the other will be irate. I believe that if a referee is focused on the game and is doing his best to apply the rules then he would not hear most of the shouts and cries from the sideline. I would say most referees would pass little remarks on that anyway.
I would not like to think that referees would be biased towards one team or another but sometimes you would wonder. Would agree that in some games the bigger teams seem to get all the benefits of doubt.
Anyway I will stick with it for another while. I would encourage others to get involved, cos no matter how we look at things, without referees there will be no games.

tazz (Westmeath) - Posts: 50 - 13/07/2017 09:13:44    2015928

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Replying To bok1:  "That's not correct, the first and only county I looked at on your list is Meath and as per the Meath County Board website its as I stated previously a home team referee at U12.

I have no idea what they do in Rugby or Soccer, based on the number of rugby clubs that I know of in Westmeath, Athlone, Mullingar and Moate I'd be surprised if they had refs for league matches at u12. However they may have them at blitz's and such like."
Most new referees would start out at under 14 level and would be encouraged to take charge of their home under 12 matches to get the experience. The referee must be over 16 years of age to do this. Having seen my own young fella play rugby in Tullamore I know the under 12 games were refereed by a mentor from either side, may have changed int eh meantime
As the U12 games in Westmeath are non-competitive there should be no real necessity for a fully qualified referee in charge but it would be desirable. The most important thing is that the person taking charge of the game has a good knowledge of the basic rules.
My own club used to hate when I would referee an under 12 game 'cos I would penalise them for everything, but I would always explain why they were penalised. In my mind it was teaching them the rules and helping them understand the consequences. All too often there is too much focus on winning games instead of developing players.

tazz (Westmeath) - Posts: 50 - 13/07/2017 09:26:19    2015933

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Replying To bok1:  "That's not correct, the first and only county I looked at on your list is Meath and as per the Meath County Board website its as I stated previously a home team referee at U12.

I have no idea what they do in Rugby or Soccer, based on the number of rugby clubs that I know of in Westmeath, Athlone, Mullingar and Moate I'd be surprised if they had refs for league matches at u12. However they may have them at blitz's and such like."
that's only for the Meath 'summer leagues', which is currently being run off in 5 weeks to give players more games
for the main U12 leagues, referees are appointed. they already played off league and finals in football and hurling.

valley84 (Westmeath) - Posts: 1684 - 13/07/2017 09:37:11    2015938

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Replying To Kipper2705:  "Ferret
Westmeath gaa charge the referees for there gear. That's a fact. You need to check that one out for sure."
I did check it out. That was always the case, they got their gear provided for. Just because you know a new referee who started, doesn't mean it is gospel. I'm sure those who are regularly refereeing do not have to pay for gear.

Ferrett (Westmeath) - Posts: 51 - 13/07/2017 10:07:33    2015953

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Replying To valley84:  "why don't U12 footballers or hurlers deserve proper referees?
just wondering?
are they less important than U14 or U16?

if the referee at U12 isn't official and does a terrible job will some players fall away from the sport based on a bad experience?
children are very impressionable as are their parents
we're in competition with other sports and we need to ensure kids are treated properly"
That is ridiculous.

If you follow your logic: Why don't you appoint referees for U10? Why don't you appoint referees for U8? Why don't you appoint referees for the nursery groups? Surely they deserve the same going by what you're saying?

You can only work with the resources out there. Why don't the gardai patrol every street every hour of the day?

I can't comprehend how you could suggest that players will stop playing gaelic games because an official referee was not appointed at U12 games? There is no research or even a shred of anecdotal evidence to favour this argument. Take for example rugby, How many clubs are there in Westmeath? Compare that to the amount of football and hurling clubs, there is a lot more logistical problems involved.

Ferrett (Westmeath) - Posts: 51 - 13/07/2017 10:21:54    2015963

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Replying To Ferrett:  "I did check it out. That was always the case, they got their gear provided for. Just because you know a new referee who started, doesn't mean it is gospel. I'm sure those who are regularly refereeing do not have to pay for gear."
Ferret,
Your source 100% has it wrong, and for the record, it was not a referee who's in the game recently that made me aware of that, it was a more senior referee. This isn't a bickering game or tit for tat, it's about fact and I don't know who told you that the didn't have to pay, the were wrong. You get nowhere and any issues that need addressing won't be done if you don't face up to them. I'm not saying that this is an issue, but it's a fact, and whoever told you your facts are misleading you. Maybe you should contact some of the recently appointed referees and ask them, because I did and the clarified it,

Kipper2705 (Westmeath) - Posts: 13 - 13/07/2017 10:22:09    2015964

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Replying To Ferrett:  "That is ridiculous.

If you follow your logic: Why don't you appoint referees for U10? Why don't you appoint referees for U8? Why don't you appoint referees for the nursery groups? Surely they deserve the same going by what you're saying?

You can only work with the resources out there. Why don't the gardai patrol every street every hour of the day?

I can't comprehend how you could suggest that players will stop playing gaelic games because an official referee was not appointed at U12 games? There is no research or even a shred of anecdotal evidence to favour this argument. Take for example rugby, How many clubs are there in Westmeath? Compare that to the amount of football and hurling clubs, there is a lot more logistical problems involved."
I agree no need for a fully fledged referee to do it, should be used as a training ground for people to see if they are interested in it.

The list of appointments for the coming football championship is available.

Good to see some new names and others moving up.

bok1 (Westmeath) - Posts: 11 - 13/07/2017 11:21:09    2015997

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Replying To Ferrett:  "That is ridiculous.

If you follow your logic: Why don't you appoint referees for U10? Why don't you appoint referees for U8? Why don't you appoint referees for the nursery groups? Surely they deserve the same going by what you're saying?

You can only work with the resources out there. Why don't the gardai patrol every street every hour of the day?

I can't comprehend how you could suggest that players will stop playing gaelic games because an official referee was not appointed at U12 games? There is no research or even a shred of anecdotal evidence to favour this argument. Take for example rugby, How many clubs are there in Westmeath? Compare that to the amount of football and hurling clubs, there is a lot more logistical problems involved."
ok. why bother at all then?
children and their parents moreso start deciding what sport to play around 12.
parents see how the games are organised!
its a very frustrating experience for children when someone who doesn't know the rules or is completely biased for the home team has the whistle

how are we going to recruit new referees?
tell tgem they'll be doing an U12 game every week or 2nd week with expenses.
giving a whistle to a 16 year old is just saving the club having to pay a ref.

valley84 (Westmeath) - Posts: 1684 - 13/07/2017 11:47:26    2016014

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Replying To Kipper2705:  "Ferret,
Your source 100% has it wrong, and for the record, it was not a referee who's in the game recently that made me aware of that, it was a more senior referee. This isn't a bickering game or tit for tat, it's about fact and I don't know who told you that the didn't have to pay, the were wrong. You get nowhere and any issues that need addressing won't be done if you don't face up to them. I'm not saying that this is an issue, but it's a fact, and whoever told you your facts are misleading you. Maybe you should contact some of the recently appointed referees and ask them, because I did and the clarified it,"
My source does not have it wrong. As it happens, I checked with another senior referee and they confirmed they never had to pay for a jersey.

Just because you're forceful with your comments, doesn't make them truthful or accurate.

As you said, this isn't tit for tat - it is a side point, but I wouldn't stand by false claims being made.

I accept that it may be the case that some new referees were given the option to pay for a new jersey if they wanted one, however it is nowhere in the rule book that a referee must wear a specific jersey. I would imagine if a new referee was to stick at it, a jersey would be given to him free of charge. This is not an unreasonable expectation

Ferrett (Westmeath) - Posts: 51 - 13/07/2017 12:31:06    2016047

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Replying To valley84:  "ok. why bother at all then?
children and their parents moreso start deciding what sport to play around 12.
parents see how the games are organised!
its a very frustrating experience for children when someone who doesn't know the rules or is completely biased for the home team has the whistle

how are we going to recruit new referees?
tell tgem they'll be doing an U12 game every week or 2nd week with expenses.
giving a whistle to a 16 year old is just saving the club having to pay a ref."
Well you tell me? There has to be a cut-off somewhere? You suggest that U12 is when a player decided to keep or stop playing - I say that this is unrealistic.

Again, it is all about being reasonable. Is it reasonable to expect a referee be appointed to every children's game? No.

People will still be frustrated if it is an official referee in charge, so it doesn't make any difference.

Your point about recruiting referees doesn't make sense, they start off at U14 and get paid expenses. Perhaps if someone has to fill in for their club, they might actually take it up. There is nothing wrong with giving it to a 16 year old - plenty of skills and experiences for them to learn. They might actually appreciate how hard it is, and take it on board for when they're playing.

Ferrett (Westmeath) - Posts: 51 - 13/07/2017 12:39:09    2016052

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If there was enough referees to do all U12 games then I'm sure they would appoint them. Trouble is there isnt enough referees in the county and most dont want to do it every night, which is fair enough. As someone else said if a local starts reffing U12 games he/she might enjoy it and take it up properly

martyW (Westmeath) - Posts: 243 - 13/07/2017 12:58:13    2016062

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Replying To Ferrett:  "My source does not have it wrong. As it happens, I checked with another senior referee and they confirmed they never had to pay for a jersey.

Just because you're forceful with your comments, doesn't make them truthful or accurate.

As you said, this isn't tit for tat - it is a side point, but I wouldn't stand by false claims being made.

I accept that it may be the case that some new referees were given the option to pay for a new jersey if they wanted one, however it is nowhere in the rule book that a referee must wear a specific jersey. I would imagine if a new referee was to stick at it, a jersey would be given to him free of charge. This is not an unreasonable expectation"
Friend of mine did the referee course a few years ago and at the end was not given referee's gear or a whistle. He then got a number of underage matches and he wore his own gear. After numerous games where he had to wait around after games to be paid he figured it all wasnt worth it and he stopped.

Meridian (Westmeath) - Posts: 482 - 13/07/2017 13:59:46    2016092

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Replying To tazz:  "Most new referees would start out at under 14 level and would be encouraged to take charge of their home under 12 matches to get the experience. The referee must be over 16 years of age to do this. Having seen my own young fella play rugby in Tullamore I know the under 12 games were refereed by a mentor from either side, may have changed int eh meantime
As the U12 games in Westmeath are non-competitive there should be no real necessity for a fully qualified referee in charge but it would be desirable. The most important thing is that the person taking charge of the game has a good knowledge of the basic rules.
My own club used to hate when I would referee an under 12 game 'cos I would penalise them for everything, but I would always explain why they were penalised. In my mind it was teaching them the rules and helping them understand the consequences. All too often there is too much focus on winning games instead of developing players."
well said tazz... definitely right that players need more 'developing' at that age and less focus on winning.. for god sake why i am i calling them players? they are 12 year old children! Like your approach to reffing your own clubs games too. Sound you are the right man for the job in my book. Long may you keep it up.

d7h (Westmeath) - Posts: 28 - 13/07/2017 14:12:24    2016098

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Replying To Meridian:  "
Replying To Ferrett:  "My source does not have it wrong. As it happens, I checked with another senior referee and they confirmed they never had to pay for a jersey.

Just because you're forceful with your comments, doesn't make them truthful or accurate.

As you said, this isn't tit for tat - it is a side point, but I wouldn't stand by false claims being made.

I accept that it may be the case that some new referees were given the option to pay for a new jersey if they wanted one, however it is nowhere in the rule book that a referee must wear a specific jersey. I would imagine if a new referee was to stick at it, a jersey would be given to him free of charge. This is not an unreasonable expectation"
Friend of mine did the referee course a few years ago and at the end was not given referee's gear or a whistle. He then got a number of underage matches and he wore his own gear. After numerous games where he had to wait around after games to be paid he figured it all wasnt worth it and he stopped."
The idea Meridian that clubs would be slow or even not pay refs after is a complete disgrace. Even at under 12 it is just wrong. People who would do that should not be in charge of developing young children in my book. I think valley suggested before that the clubs should get billed by the county board for refs and that refs are then paid by the board. In this way refs get paid 100% of time and any slow payers are owing the county board who will have the means to collect at the end of the day rather than see some young ref hanging about afterwards hoping to be paid. No respect there at all. Without the refs there will be no games after all. I would say too that Westmeath refs have represented us very well at county level for a good long time now and fair play to them for that. Must be doing something right I would have thought.

d7h (Westmeath) - Posts: 28 - 13/07/2017 14:18:06    2016101

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Replying To d7h:  "
Replying To Meridian:  "[quote=Ferrett:  "My source does not have it wrong. As it happens, I checked with another senior referee and they confirmed they never had to pay for a jersey.

Just because you're forceful with your comments, doesn't make them truthful or accurate.

As you said, this isn't tit for tat - it is a side point, but I wouldn't stand by false claims being made.

I accept that it may be the case that some new referees were given the option to pay for a new jersey if they wanted one, however it is nowhere in the rule book that a referee must wear a specific jersey. I would imagine if a new referee was to stick at it, a jersey would be given to him free of charge. This is not an unreasonable expectation"
Friend of mine did the referee course a few years ago and at the end was not given referee's gear or a whistle. He then got a number of underage matches and he wore his own gear. After numerous games where he had to wait around after games to be paid he figured it all wasnt worth it and he stopped."
The idea Meridian that clubs would be slow or even not pay refs after is a complete disgrace. Even at under 12 it is just wrong. People who would do that should not be in charge of developing young children in my book. I think valley suggested before that the clubs should get billed by the county board for refs and that refs are then paid by the board. In this way refs get paid 100% of time and any slow payers are owing the county board who will have the means to collect at the end of the day rather than see some young ref hanging about afterwards hoping to be paid. No respect there at all. Without the refs there will be no games after all. I would say too that Westmeath refs have represented us very well at county level for a good long time now and fair play to them for that. Must be doing something right I would have thought."]Ferrett ,
I'm not been forceful, I'm stating a fact, you were the one that remarked that the don't have to pay and later you said that the new one did, you actually changed your remark which indicates my saying about them having to pay. I made you aware of referees who had to pay, I didn't say how long the were serving, I said it was a more senior member who made those comments to me

Kipper2705 (Westmeath) - Posts: 13 - 13/07/2017 19:43:32    2016248

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I want more referees in the county! and better refs!
expecting that someone is just going to take it up after being begged to do an U12 game isn't going to happen. especially when they get nothing for doing the game!
if someone knew they'd only get U12 games for the year and one game a week with expenses then that'd be a good way to recruit new refs.
its not fair on team mentors to have to referee. they are there to coach. nor the kids who want to have a neutral referee.
why shouldn't U12 games be organised properly?

valley84 (Westmeath) - Posts: 1684 - 13/07/2017 23:07:07    2016304

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@Kipper
Clubs should pay the referee before the match even starts, no question that refs left waiting around is unacceptable. The idea of Co board billing the clubs is a great idea in theory, but would it work? What happened with the coaching levies? The last thing the county board need is more debtors.
Kipper you were, and continue to be, forceful. I didn't change my stance. You stated at the start: "Ferret
Totally agree with you, but don't get referees to pay for a €30 for a referee kit, €10 for a book and two cards , pay for a whistle and give them the illusion that you're going to use them to referee games and then just ignore them. Mud sticks and word gets about and that's not good for our county as a whole"
and also "Ferret
Westmeath gaa charge the referees for there gear. That's a fact. You need to check that one out for sure."
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What you said is that referees have to pay for their gear. Not that a referee you claim to know was charged for his gear. I Checked it out with two refs, they said they never had to pay for gear. Another poster on this who is a referee stated he didn't have to pay for gear. On a side note, you make claims about this 'mythical' referee that nobody seems to know. You maintain no consistency in your story, personally I think you're just trying to stir the pot. The balance of the argument doesn't go in your favour. I stick by my point, that referees are not charged for their gear, however I'm not totally disregarding the idea that a newly qualified referee may have been charged. This is reasonable, as I would imagine there is quite a drop off.

Ferrett (Westmeath) - Posts: 51 - 14/07/2017 11:31:43    2016448

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Replying To valley84:  "I want more referees in the county! and better refs!
expecting that someone is just going to take it up after being begged to do an U12 game isn't going to happen. especially when they get nothing for doing the game!
if someone knew they'd only get U12 games for the year and one game a week with expenses then that'd be a good way to recruit new refs.
its not fair on team mentors to have to referee. they are there to coach. nor the kids who want to have a neutral referee.
why shouldn't U12 games be organised properly?"
Everyone wants the best possible referees, and in my opinion, we have the best in comparison to other counties.

The amount of lads who took it up because they were forced to stand in at an underage match.

Where do you draw the line? What about U10? What about U8?

Surely then if you want the best experience, you expect neutral umpires and linesmen?

It is a question about being realistic. It is not feasible to have referees at every underage match, there isn't exactly a long waiting list to do referees courses is there? I can't see that changing anytime soon, given the nature of the beast.

Ferrett (Westmeath) - Posts: 51 - 14/07/2017 11:36:30    2016449

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condolences to the Hannon family.
RIP

valley84 (Westmeath) - Posts: 1684 - 02/08/2017 10:16:04    2027742

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Replying To valley84:  "condolences to the Hannon family.
RIP"
I'll echo that,a good, fair up and coming ref, sympathies to the family RIP

stonemadbeany (USA) - Posts: 382 - 02/08/2017 12:43:54    2027828

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