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Is David Clifford The Best Footballer In The Country Right Now?

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Replying To jimbodub:  "He had his best form at Minor level finding himself far more developed and physically stronger than the other kids

It was like a man v boys

It was a complete mismatch at times and for some reason he got hugely hyped up off the back of it

So all this "natural talent genius" stuff.. nah.. He was most potent when lording it over physically inferior opposition at Minor level and he had a massive advantage at times because of it

He'll never have that level of impact again IMO"
''He'll never have that level of impact again IMO''

He's won two All-Stars in his first two years of seinor football and yet you think he'll never be as good...

oneoff (UK) - Posts: 263 - 07/11/2019 10:54:51    2248241

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While I agree the naturally gifted footballer thing is a myth. It's funny how Dublin posters seem to have no issues with it being said about "King Con"

I'll ask again what's the obvious issue people here have with Clifford? Seeing as they're going to great lengths to dismiss him

oneoff (UK) - Posts: 263 - 07/11/2019 11:07:32    2248247

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jimbo is very busy with the dislikes this morning

oneoff (UK) - Posts: 263 - 07/11/2019 11:14:15    2248249

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Replying To oneoff:  "While I agree the naturally gifted footballer thing is a myth. It's funny how Dublin posters seem to have no issues with it being said about "King Con"

I'll ask again what's the obvious issue people here have with Clifford? Seeing as they're going to great lengths to dismiss him"
It more than likely stems from the hype that has surrounded Clifford. Con on the other hand came in relatively quietly and has been top drawer without the fuss to the same extent. Combine this with his exploits and success with Cuala and there is no doubting his ability in both codes which again is relatively rare to these extents.
Clifford will inevitably win AI's but there is a good bit to go before he lives up to the expectations placed upon him and mostly by Kerry.
He's obviously good enough to play senior but it will only be in time we will see whether he produces the goods which Con has repeatedly on the biggest days.

Dubh_linn (Dublin) - Posts: 2151 - 07/11/2019 11:26:43    2248253

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Replying To oneoff:  "While I agree the naturally gifted footballer thing is a myth. It's funny how Dublin posters seem to have no issues with it being said about "King Con"

I'll ask again what's the obvious issue people here have with Clifford? Seeing as they're going to great lengths to dismiss him"
I can't find any post on this thread that "dismisses" David Clifford" or his ability, many posters don't agree that he is the best footballer in the country Right Now but virtually all have complimented his talent and potential. Ironically the antrim poster did dismiss Con O'Callaghan when he said his equal could be found on many teams, simply not true, and dismissive of a great young player.

sligo joe (Dublin) - Posts: 105 - 07/11/2019 12:16:02    2248272

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Replying To sligo joe:  "I can't find any post on this thread that "dismisses" David Clifford" or his ability, many posters don't agree that he is the best footballer in the country Right Now but virtually all have complimented his talent and potential. Ironically the antrim poster did dismiss Con O'Callaghan when he said his equal could be found on many teams, simply not true, and dismissive of a great young player."
There are a number of posters saying he has been figured out by defenders, peaked at minor level and will be an ordinary player at senior etc. In the last page alone there is someone claiming he was essentially a flat track bully at minor level and won't live up to his billing at senior. I'd consider that dismissive, and a bit spiteful tbh.

GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 1651 - 07/11/2019 12:36:11    2248277

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Replying To lilylanger:  "Ye sure he just rocks up & has a bit of a kick about with no training or practice at all! Every single person I mentioned above also reads the game well in particular Murphy and O'Callaghan. But sure look, you've given your reasons and I've given mine. He is up there for sure. Just not THE best for me. He is just another great player amongst a lot of other great players."
Does he? Youre the only one that has said he has a kick about and doesnt practice, i never said that at all so putting words into someones mouth is quite foolish as it comes across that you have no real points to back up your arguement.

Youre right they do all read the gane very well but imo not nearly as well as Clifford, nor do the basic skills of the game come as easy to these guys as they do for him. I am not putting these other lads down nor questioning their skill or hard work, i just firmly believe that Clifford is the best footballer at the moment.

And when i say He is a naturally gifted player, he is. This doesnt mean he does no work, doesnt train, doesnt go to the gym because obviosuly he does and that does show too. It just comes so much easier to him than anyone else i watch really. Now i didnt make the definition for naturally gifted but we all know what it refers to in terms of your own sport

boman11 (Antrim) - Posts: 185 - 07/11/2019 12:41:30    2248281

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Replying To boman11:  "Does he? Youre the only one that has said he has a kick about and doesnt practice, i never said that at all so putting words into someones mouth is quite foolish as it comes across that you have no real points to back up your arguement.

Youre right they do all read the gane very well but imo not nearly as well as Clifford, nor do the basic skills of the game come as easy to these guys as they do for him. I am not putting these other lads down nor questioning their skill or hard work, i just firmly believe that Clifford is the best footballer at the moment.

And when i say He is a naturally gifted player, he is. This doesnt mean he does no work, doesnt train, doesnt go to the gym because obviosuly he does and that does show too. It just comes so much easier to him than anyone else i watch really. Now i didnt make the definition for naturally gifted but we all know what it refers to in terms of your own sport"
How do you know the basics of the game come more easily for him than others? Seriously, I mean that's just a gross assumption. I'm genuinely curious as to how you determine that?

lilylanger (Kildare) - Posts: 382 - 07/11/2019 13:01:23    2248285

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I must say yous dubs are good craic. Maybe if i was talking about Your king CON you wouldnt be so pety as give a wee red thumb lol yous seem to do it for anyone that argues against you or is in favour of any other county.

And dont worry guys i havent forgot about the ones who say they're from sonehwere in the states or other counties but we all know its certain dubs on multiple accounts. Fools

One more time now... Cue the red thumbs boys how many can i get for this one.... Con o'callaghan isnt even a fraction of the footballer David is and will go on to be

boman11 (Antrim) - Posts: 185 - 07/11/2019 13:18:05    2248288

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But he is a much better hurler i will give you that hahahaha

boman11 (Antrim) - Posts: 185 - 07/11/2019 13:18:51    2248289

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Replying To expe:  "Using Cormac Costello as an example is very misleading, he outscored Clifford 1-31 to 0-29, Clifford started 7 games, Costello played in 8 games, 3 of them as a sub. But Costello scored 1-24 as Dublin coasted through the Leinster Championship, 1-21 of that before the game against Meath, add another 6 points in the dead rubber against Tyrone and his only other score was a free against Cork. Only 1-8 of his total actually came from play, 1-1 against Louth, 0-5 against Kildare and 0-2 against Tyrone. In the All-Ireland series his only scores from play came against Tyrone in a game that resembled a challenge match.

All the other forwards that you've mentioned are or were the main free takers for their counties. It's a lot easier to score 7-8 points a game if you're taking frees and penalties, not that anyone actually scores 7-8 points as standard. The only players that scored over 20 points this year to manage 7+ a game were Dean Rock and Sean O'Shea, the best free takers out there.

McShane averaged 6.3 per game this year, 3 points a game of that from play. Rian O'Neill averaged 6 points, 3.2 from play. Both of them ran up big scores in the qualifiers.

For the others, their career averages are:

Michael Murphy - 4
Gooch - 4.1
Brogan - 4.4

Nowhere near 7-8 a game, in fact the only player in the all time leading scorers list (180+ points) to average 7 points a game is Matt Connor. Mikey Sheehy, Cillian O'Connor and Colin Corkery are the only others to manage 6 or more.

A few other averages from that list:

Peter Canavan - 3.8 (or 4.4, depends whether he played 49 or 58 championship games, can see both quoted)
Dean Rock - 5.4
Conor McManus - 4.5
Maurice Fitz - 5.4

At 20, Clifford's average is 4.9 and he doesn't take many frees, from play he averages 3.8 points a game. In the All-Ireland series those figures increase to 6 and 4.75.

As for the goals, or lack of them, I don't really see the issue. He's scored 4 in his first 12 championship games, 1 of them a penalty. Michael Murphy has 8 in 67, including 5 penalties and after his goal in the 2012 All-Ireland final, his next championship goal was against Tyrone in the Super 8s last year.

Some others:

Peter Canavan - 9 in 49/58
Conor McManus - 7 in 56
Maurice Fitz - 12 in 45
Dean Rock - 9 in 44 (2 in 25 in the All-Ireland series)
Gooch - 23 in 85

The hype works both ways, I wouldn't say there was no fuss over Con, McCaffrey or Murchan's goals, but it certainly wasn't at the level it would be if Clifford scored them. On the other hand, he kicked 2 points from play, won a penalty and at least 2 scorable frees and had his marker, the opposition's best and most experienced man marker, sent off before half time in an All-Ireland final. His performance was mostly described as at best, an off day, and at worst, poor. I can't think of any other player that would be judged to those levels, for most that would be seen as an outstanding performance.

I get the impression that some, mainly Dubs, are desperate to find ways to claim he isn't as good as most say, usually things that are just nonsense. The stats show that at 20 years of age, he's already hit the scoring levels, of the top forwards that we've seen over the last couple of decades.

He isn't the best footballer in the country, but to be at the level he is at such a young age is frightening. If he's doing that now, what will he be like in 4 or 5 years time when he starts to hit his peak?"
Fantastic response, I rate David Clifford with the best but didn't realise just how good how his stats were. You talk about who else gets scrutinised on their performances like him - I think the only one who comes close is Michael Murphy (The whole argument about the game against Mayo springs to mind where he carried Donegal on his back but was seen by some as having a poor game.) For me personally, I think Michael Murphy is the best in the country and I don't think there's anyone near his level, but it's scary to think of the impact Clifford and Sean O'Shea can have over the next few years

Justlooking123 (UK) - Posts: 6 - 07/11/2019 13:26:00    2248291

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Replying To GeniusGerry:  "There are a number of posters saying he has been figured out by defenders, peaked at minor level and will be an ordinary player at senior etc. In the last page alone there is someone claiming he was essentially a flat track bully at minor level and won't live up to his billing at senior. I'd consider that dismissive, and a bit spiteful tbh."
The lad gets a huge amount of praise even when he's not playing particularly well, so I'm sure you can see that "spite" in its proper context.

greatpoint (USA) - Posts: 238 - 07/11/2019 13:43:46    2248297

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Replying To sligo joe:  "I can't find any post on this thread that "dismisses" David Clifford" or his ability, many posters don't agree that he is the best footballer in the country Right Now but virtually all have complimented his talent and potential. Ironically the antrim poster did dismiss Con O'Callaghan when he said his equal could be found on many teams, simply not true, and dismissive of a great young player."
"He'll never have that level of impact again IMO''

One of many from Jimbo alone

oneoff (UK) - Posts: 263 - 07/11/2019 13:48:58    2248301

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I think David Clifford is the best full forward (13, 14, 15) talent in the game, which in Gaelic football terms tends to be a specialism. Best footballer is a different thing and he may very well be, but that entails exhibiting more of the all round skills and leadership qualities which have marked out the likes of Michael Murphy, Brian Fenton and James McCarthy and are marking out Paddy Durcan from my own county. But he's absolutely a special player and a once-off having the skills of the Gooch in a frame which should see him being virtually unmarkable one-on-one in the coming years, unless a rival county spawns some monster of a fullback. The key with Clifford will always be to starve him of ball and make him mark his marker. If he shows that he can still be an influence when things are going against him and Kerry, then we can justifiably pronounce him the best.

Pericles (Mayo) - Posts: 1995 - 07/11/2019 14:20:07    2248305

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Its remarkable the amount of passionate fans, David Clifford has developed recently in relatively new posters in places like Antrim and his massive following in the UK.

Stranger still that these posters all post in the same style and bereft of a full stop. ;)

Hopefully they all dont forget to green thumb each other! ;D

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 3092 - 07/11/2019 14:34:50    2248309

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Replying To GeniusGerry:  "There are a number of posters saying he has been figured out by defenders, peaked at minor level and will be an ordinary player at senior etc. In the last page alone there is someone claiming he was essentially a flat track bully at minor level and won't live up to his billing at senior. I'd consider that dismissive, and a bit spiteful tbh."
Gerry

Unfortunately you've taken offense to something I said about defenders having better games on him because they've now had time to study him in more detail and no doubt study his movement.

He was better in 2018 compared to 2019

This is what I meant when I said "figured out"
I did previously go onto explain that. You took it in a very sensitive manner and are now twisting my words as a way to prove people are dismissing him.

It's simply not true .

I'm certainly not dismissing his potential but as of right now.. do I think he'll have the same level of impact at senior compared to minor.. no I don't.

Do I think defenders have some tgeir homework to figure him out better.. Yes I do.

He was practically unstoppable at Minor. Scoring freely and banging in goals regularly

That's simply not the case in 2019.

I think he's fortunate to have gotten an All Star in 2019

For me.. Howard was not an All Star Defender but he was an All Star Forward. Moving him there was to accommodate Clifford.

I think the Sunday Game team is the better of the two, which IMO did the right thing of not buying into the hype a wee bit and had the balls not to do it.

Nothing I've said above is extreme.

If you take it as such again that's not my problem.

jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 19791 - 07/11/2019 14:39:21    2248310

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Replying To lilylanger:  "How do you know the basics of the game come more easily for him than others? Seriously, I mean that's just a gross assumption. I'm genuinely curious as to how you determine that?"
I had to acctually go and do a masters on this topic alone and study for 5 years to determine that.. how do you think i determined that, by watching the game obviously. Now i dont know if you asking them questions was just you trying to be smart or is it just plain stupidity? Everyone makes their own assumptions and opinions. Save the stupidity please

boman11 (Antrim) - Posts: 185 - 07/11/2019 14:45:05    2248311

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Replying To Pericles:  "I think David Clifford is the best full forward (13, 14, 15) talent in the game, which in Gaelic football terms tends to be a specialism. Best footballer is a different thing and he may very well be, but that entails exhibiting more of the all round skills and leadership qualities which have marked out the likes of Michael Murphy, Brian Fenton and James McCarthy and are marking out Paddy Durcan from my own county. But he's absolutely a special player and a once-off having the skills of the Gooch in a frame which should see him being virtually unmarkable one-on-one in the coming years, unless a rival county spawns some monster of a fullback. The key with Clifford will always be to starve him of ball and make him mark his marker. If he shows that he can still be an influence when things are going against him and Kerry, then we can justifiably pronounce him the best."
Nah mate i think it has to entail being drom Dublin aswell dont forget lol.

some good points made on what it takes to be the best and very honourable mentions to some giants of the game. I agree he maybe needs a few years for others to realise he is the best, once he can have the opportunity to overcome adversity. I would be extremely confident he would pass that test

boman11 (Antrim) - Posts: 185 - 07/11/2019 14:56:27    2248316

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Replying To greatpoint:  "The lad gets a huge amount of praise even when he's not playing particularly well, so I'm sure you can see that "spite" in its proper context."
Nope, it's spite pure and simple. After the drawn final he was accused of hiding and costing Kerry the game despite a very good overall performance where he kicked two points from play, won a penalty and made a complete fool of the supposed best man market in the game before he mercifully got sent off.

His play to date has warranted a lot of praise as he is usually very very good. When has he not played well? He was sensational in his debut year and his stats from 2019 are above and they are also excellent. I raised that earlier in the thread and the usual crew of tried to claim that stats are not relevant, as if their biased opinion is a more valid measurement of performance.

GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 1651 - 07/11/2019 15:01:52    2248319

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Replying To oneoff:  ""He'll never have that level of impact again IMO''

One of many from Jimbo alone"
How's it going nowhere man! Nah not me red thumbing just other posters expressing their own opinions. It does happen..

It's my opinion.

I don't think he'll have the same impact seen at Minor at senior level.

How is that dismissing him?

I've yet to see an equal comparison of the dominace he enjoyed over defenders at Minor..

He had a large physical advantage at Minor and was physically just far stronger and bigger than most of his markers.. man versus boys at times.

But these things happen at Minor level

He scored many more goals at Minor.

He's not at the same level at senior where he was practically unstoppable at minor.

He's still done very well at senior but simply does not enjoy the same level of sheer dominance he once enjoyed.

He had a great break out year and dropped off that level in 2019.

It's up to you how you want to twist my words

But again.. I doubt he'll ever again enjoy the level of advantage he held at Minor level.

There's a far better quality of defender on him now that obviously have figured him out better at this level and are equally as strong.

There's much better tactical minds at play off the pitch working hard to limit him at senior.

Hence no goals in 2019 and O'Shea took the mantle of most impressive Kerry forward

.... and Brian Howard at Half back!

That's why Clifford has an All Star in 2019 but at least the Sunday Game team got it far closer. Although they didn't get POTY right.

Cluxton by a nose over Con.

jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 19791 - 07/11/2019 15:03:19    2248320

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