Clare Forum

Clare Senior Hurlers 2016

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Replying To hurlingexpert:  "Yeah as you say sometimes - but not always. Luckily we have conlon who is one of the best around so we can go to him but when he moved inside though after shanagher went off we were lost!

We just have to find alternatives, just a pity that all our options fell on the same day ie going to conlon, pushing cleary up, going short.

Everyone would love to have the luxury of a team who can all win their own ball but the fact is that no one has more than 2 or 3 in the forward line.
I do think walter walsh is an average player but i do acknowledge that his primary function is to win puckouts - hes not exactly keeping any quality forwards out of the team though as their depth of forwards is not what it was..
Kilkenny have always had these ball winners who are quality hurlers - everyone knows thats a huge reason for their success.
Its only caveman tactics if there arent players there to win the ball.

7-10 years ago we had a forward line where all 6 were capable of winning their own ball but the current group are much better hurlers.
For clarification that 6 would have been diarmuid mcmahon, tony carmody, tony griffin, niall gilligan, barry nugent and alan markham to a lessex extent!

And that selection i threw out above was an example of how id like to have seen us line out and thus changing ship rather than remaining on a sinking one!

Hypothetically if both counties are under new management next year then clare will have a way better chance than limerick, because limerick have no one as good as mcinerney, kelly, mcgrath, galvin or conlon."
Cling on to all the hypotheticals you want if those players were good enough to carry the rest of the team then a Wexford team that got hammered by us (no BS about tiredness a tired team fades in last 15 or 20 that team were beaten from throw in) would not have beaten ye over 2 games a v poor Cork team would not have beaten ye last year and Waterford would not have beaten ye by 7 pts this year. Hexpert you are in denial. I predicted Clare would not see Croke park in each of the last 3 years. I cannot make a prediction on 17 now but a lot would have to change.

disillusiondfan (Limerick) - Posts: 4279 - 26/07/2016 13:57:16    1890387

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Replying To disillusiondfan:  "Cling on to all the hypotheticals you want if those players were good enough to carry the rest of the team then a Wexford team that got hammered by us (no BS about tiredness a tired team fades in last 15 or 20 that team were beaten from throw in) would not have beaten ye over 2 games a v poor Cork team would not have beaten ye last year and Waterford would not have beaten ye by 7 pts this year. Hexpert you are in denial. I predicted Clare would not see Croke park in each of the last 3 years. I cannot make a prediction on 17 now but a lot would have to change."
Clareman - just to clarify i was not talking about going long in genteral play, i was just refering to puckouts.
Also on the free taker issue ryan doesnt do enough to start so he is rightfully on the bench. Mcgrath was doing very well on the frees before his injury so i think it should be his duty. Kelly needd to perfected his frees off one side rather than switching between the 2.

Df all i was saying is we have some much better players than limerick, if you dont agree tell me who ye have.
We have been using the same bs tactics for the last 3 years - thats why. Personally i wasnt overally concerned about 2014 but last year i was worried about where we were heading and here we are now - it has to stop. A change is needed

hurlingexpert (Clare) - Posts: 1817 - 26/07/2016 14:40:36    1890427

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All this Clare v Limerick 'who is less rubbish that the other' stuff is tiresome and frankly irrelevant. We should be concentrating on the fact that we are miles of the form of 2013 of both teams and instead of being up there with waterford and galway challenging big boys we are both miles off.

its a sad state of affairs for too highly skilled teams with lots of good players.

Clareman (Clare) - Posts: 984 - 26/07/2016 14:47:37    1890432

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From a clare viewpoint anyway the more i think about it the more i think we need a change of manager. The fact is we have a hugely talented group of players who are more than capable of beating anyone. Its clear for all to see that despite all davys positive talk in the media he is still a very negative manager. His priority is damage limitation rather than trusting his players to go and win the game. 2013 was a great year, but sport waits for no man. If we are to move forward it will have to be without him. He gives everything for clare hurling but his methods have failed us for 3 consecutive years. I hate how he says a county like clare shouldnt expect to be in all ireland finals. Who cares what has happened in years gone by, we have one of the best groups of players in the country now so we should believe we can win the thing. I admire davy for playing a major card this year in bringing in donal og on the face of it its hard to know if he made much difference. 2 changes i did see this year were 1 going direct to conlon at full forward before he got injured and 2 pushing up wing backs for puckouts.
Saying we only lost 2 out of 16 games sounds impressive until you see that includes beating kerry, offaly, wexford, laois(twice), limerick (twice), our one genuine quality performance was the killenny game in the league but we never got near that level again, maybe we peaked in that game?! I dont know, its just devastating to see all this talent not being allowed to play to their potential..

hurlingexpert (Clare) - Posts: 1817 - 26/07/2016 16:34:55    1890504

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I would like to see more game time given to likes of Cathal Malone, Jamie Shanahan, Daire Keane, Morey, Tots, Bobby Duggan etc.

To b fair to fitz, a lot of them were carrying knocks this year but i tihnk they have something to offer.

Clare are too quick to write off some players and yet others constantly picked with no improvement.

Kelly

O Brien (although i wouldnt give up on Paul Flanagan just yet, poorly treated after kk concussion)
Dillon
Morey

POC
Cleary
Ryan

Mac
Galvin

Conlon
Kelly
Fitz

Podge

Shanager
McGrath

Bin the sweeper and have a go!

Clareman (Clare) - Posts: 984 - 26/07/2016 16:57:15    1890521

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Replying To hurlingexpert:  "Clareman - just to clarify i was not talking about going long in genteral play, i was just refering to puckouts.
Also on the free taker issue ryan doesnt do enough to start so he is rightfully on the bench. Mcgrath was doing very well on the frees before his injury so i think it should be his duty. Kelly needd to perfected his frees off one side rather than switching between the 2.

Df all i was saying is we have some much better players than limerick, if you dont agree tell me who ye have.
We have been using the same bs tactics for the last 3 years - thats why. Personally i wasnt overally concerned about 2014 but last year i was worried about where we were heading and here we are now - it has to stop. A change is needed"
Hexpert Clare have a manager and 4 coaches ( 4 of that 5 have AIs as either players managers or coaches) we have a manager who got the job by accident and a coach that no other county would appoint. We stood off ye for 55 mins and let ye to short puck outs uncontested being totally tactically inept. Allowing fir all of those disadvantages we lost by 4 or 5 points in a dire embarrassing game hardly an indication of dominance. How many beatings do Clare have to he before you see what is obvious to most? Clareman you are right it's irrelevant but I just can't help it sorry. I got dogs abuse for predicting Clare wouldn't get to Croke Park for last 3 years ( just by applyingthe basics of the game) so I deserve a little self indulgence.

disillusiondfan (Limerick) - Posts: 4279 - 26/07/2016 17:57:31    1890567

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Replying To disillusiondfan:  "Hexpert Clare have a manager and 4 coaches ( 4 of that 5 have AIs as either players managers or coaches) we have a manager who got the job by accident and a coach that no other county would appoint. We stood off ye for 55 mins and let ye to short puck outs uncontested being totally tactically inept. Allowing fir all of those disadvantages we lost by 4 or 5 points in a dire embarrassing game hardly an indication of dominance. How many beatings do Clare have to he before you see what is obvious to most? Clareman you are right it's irrelevant but I just can't help it sorry. I got dogs abuse for predicting Clare wouldn't get to Croke Park for last 3 years ( just by applyingthe basics of the game) so I deserve a little self indulgence."
I dont know what you want me to say - we have been terrible. So far below capabilities is shameful!!

hurlingexpert (Clare) - Posts: 1817 - 26/07/2016 18:59:49    1890596

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Replying To hurlingexpert:  "I dont know what you want me to say - we have been terrible. So far below capabilities is shameful!!"
You could say that I was right when I pointed out that the system that worked in 13 wouldn't work in 14, when I said Clare didn't have enough ball winners to be contenders and when I said that Clare lacked quality players in key positions to get to Croker in 14,15 and16( though I will admit I wasn't so definite this year) You could say dismissing my reasoned argument out of hand was a mistake. You could simply say I have been proven right more often than wrong and that your monacle is hardly earned based on your own predictions to date. Just a few suggestions. Sack cloth and ashes I think Paisley called it. I'll tell you something else no way no how would Clare have won in 13 without Davey. I'm no fan but if ever there was a case of tactical and motivational genius Davey showed it in 13. He got the very most out of those lads. Maybe he is past his sell by date but Clare fans should always remember what he achieved

disillusiondfan (Limerick) - Posts: 4279 - 26/07/2016 19:46:53    1890613

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Replying To hurlingexpert:  "I dont know what you want me to say - we have been terrible. So far below capabilities is shameful!!"
DF has been trying to point out for some time now that Clare dont have the personnel to push for Glory - the results have proven him correct.

This Clare team have won one Munster Championship game since 2012 - struggling to get over the line against a Waterford team which had come to the end of the road in 2013. They have one credible victory since 2013 in the qualifiers, the win a few weeks back to a cat Limerick performance

Surely lads, if this is the most gifted bunch in the Country they would have mustered up something better - regardless of the management.

Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1036 - 26/07/2016 19:52:46    1890615

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The Clare wing backs were weak. The wing backs should have the strength to burst forward and set up scores for the forwards. Bugler used to be able before. Pat o Conor has the ability to do this. Morey could be there too, A couple of changes can make a huge difference.

In Galway we had Pete Finnerty and Gerry Mac.

The TIPP wing backs have the power. Galway will need lots of luck to win.

Sheedy (Galway) - Posts: 107 - 26/07/2016 20:23:17    1890631

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Alright df your "prediction" was correct, well done. Maybe we should try to swap our names on this at this stage, because im disillusioned with recent events and maybe you are more worthy of the "hexpert" crown!!
As for your defense of davy - i agree with what you said but as i previously stated sport waits for no man and there is no room for sentiment in sport. Davy delivered us an all ireland but after 3 miserable years we need a change to bring this group forward.

One thing however i will not agree with no matter who says it, is the notion that we lack quality players. Im not saying we have 15 top class players, but we certainly have enough to be consistent challengers. The likes of mcinerney, dillon, galvin, kelly, mcgrath, conlon are top top quality players, almost all of whom i think would make the kilkenny team for example. And the rest are good enough to make us competitive with any team.

hurlingexpert (Clare) - Posts: 1817 - 27/07/2016 08:47:00    1890768

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All very interesting points coming through but we must agree that being all defensive with at least 7 defenders, 3 in midfield and 4 in attack does not generate exciting hurling, it's too tactical, it's boring and we are now witness to the worst quality hurling for many decades. From a Galway perspective we failed to raise our game against Dublin in the 2013 Leinster Final - the first sign of weakness in the management and the subsequent capitulation against a defensive Clare in the QF left supporters and players alike flat - I am not blaming Clare's defensive strategy as much as Galway management - we were practically invincible in 2012 and rubbish in 2013. Following year 2014 KK beat us in Leinster and Tipp put 10 points on us in the QF and 2015 KK beat us in Leinster Final but we caught Cork on a downward slide and last minute point against Tipp in the semi-final and won't mention the final against KK

Forever the bridesmaid, even though we played in 3 All-Ireland finals from 2012-15, the time duration is long if you are not winning and change is absolutely required - too long listening to the same old tune, management commitment to certain players at the expense of others, huge personal commitment and nothing to show for it - CHANGE must happen - it is important now for Clare hurling to reassess and move on and a complete refresh of management, coaches, hurling board officials - a clean slate

I have tipped Clare to win McCarthy Cup in 2016, I thought that the new management setup might influence the tactic - they failed and Clare failed too. This would be my team for Clare in 2017

Kelly
O'Brien, Dillon, Browne
Morey, McInerney, O'Connor
Galvin, Kelly
B Duggan, Conlon, Cunningham
McGrath, Honan, Collins
(O'Donnell if Collins chooses to be dual player)

New management, new tactical strategy that allows players to maximise their capability - playing O'Connor in the corner is like Galway doing the same with Jonny Coen - absolute ridiculous - things now must change in Clare hurling

TouchOfClass (Galway) - Posts: 730 - 28/07/2016 12:35:29    1891457

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Replying To LohansRedHelmet:  "Touchofclass

Can I suggest, that you would not give two xxxxx how Galway play if it would win them an all Ireland. No team has a duty to hurling, but a duty to their county to win.

In saying that, this has all blown out over 2 game of hurling. Clare put up 4-22 against KK and are now being slated for ruining hurling? Get a life will ya."
so, fast forward 3 months, still think ye are playing the right brand of hurling?

get a life will ya

TouchOfClass (Galway) - Posts: 730 - 28/07/2016 15:09:56    1891564

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Replying To TouchOfClass:  "All very interesting points coming through but we must agree that being all defensive with at least 7 defenders, 3 in midfield and 4 in attack does not generate exciting hurling, it's too tactical, it's boring and we are now witness to the worst quality hurling for many decades. From a Galway perspective we failed to raise our game against Dublin in the 2013 Leinster Final - the first sign of weakness in the management and the subsequent capitulation against a defensive Clare in the QF left supporters and players alike flat - I am not blaming Clare's defensive strategy as much as Galway management - we were practically invincible in 2012 and rubbish in 2013. Following year 2014 KK beat us in Leinster and Tipp put 10 points on us in the QF and 2015 KK beat us in Leinster Final but we caught Cork on a downward slide and last minute point against Tipp in the semi-final and won't mention the final against KK

Forever the bridesmaid, even though we played in 3 All-Ireland finals from 2012-15, the time duration is long if you are not winning and change is absolutely required - too long listening to the same old tune, management commitment to certain players at the expense of others, huge personal commitment and nothing to show for it - CHANGE must happen - it is important now for Clare hurling to reassess and move on and a complete refresh of management, coaches, hurling board officials - a clean slate

I have tipped Clare to win McCarthy Cup in 2016, I thought that the new management setup might influence the tactic - they failed and Clare failed too. This would be my team for Clare in 2017

Kelly
O'Brien, Dillon, Browne
Morey, McInerney, O'Connor
Galvin, Kelly
B Duggan, Conlon, Cunningham
McGrath, Honan, Collins
(O'Donnell if Collins chooses to be dual player)

New management, new tactical strategy that allows players to maximise their capability - playing O'Connor in the corner is like Galway doing the same with Jonny Coen - absolute ridiculous - things now must change in Clare hurling"
Kelly is not a top class keeper. Has let in some howlers. Mcinerney is not a centre back though he excells at 3 or 4. O Brien has potential but not proven Browne is far too slow to be a 4. Morey doesnt have the stature to be a 5. O Connor was v good in 13 but hasnt really excelled on the wing since then. Mysteriously Galvin seems to have gone off the boil maybe he should just be left at 8. B Duggan is entirely unproven at this level and Honan is most inconsistent player in the game. Back again to the same thing I have been saying for three years. Clare have too many gaps to fill to be considered contenders.

disillusiondfan (Limerick) - Posts: 4279 - 28/07/2016 17:28:20    1891648

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Replying To TouchOfClass:  "All very interesting points coming through but we must agree that being all defensive with at least 7 defenders, 3 in midfield and 4 in attack does not generate exciting hurling, it's too tactical, it's boring and we are now witness to the worst quality hurling for many decades. From a Galway perspective we failed to raise our game against Dublin in the 2013 Leinster Final - the first sign of weakness in the management and the subsequent capitulation against a defensive Clare in the QF left supporters and players alike flat - I am not blaming Clare's defensive strategy as much as Galway management - we were practically invincible in 2012 and rubbish in 2013. Following year 2014 KK beat us in Leinster and Tipp put 10 points on us in the QF and 2015 KK beat us in Leinster Final but we caught Cork on a downward slide and last minute point against Tipp in the semi-final and won't mention the final against KK

Forever the bridesmaid, even though we played in 3 All-Ireland finals from 2012-15, the time duration is long if you are not winning and change is absolutely required - too long listening to the same old tune, management commitment to certain players at the expense of others, huge personal commitment and nothing to show for it - CHANGE must happen - it is important now for Clare hurling to reassess and move on and a complete refresh of management, coaches, hurling board officials - a clean slate

I have tipped Clare to win McCarthy Cup in 2016, I thought that the new management setup might influence the tactic - they failed and Clare failed too. This would be my team for Clare in 2017

Kelly
O'Brien, Dillon, Browne
Morey, McInerney, O'Connor
Galvin, Kelly
B Duggan, Conlon, Cunningham
McGrath, Honan, Collins
(O'Donnell if Collins chooses to be dual player)

New management, new tactical strategy that allows players to maximise their capability - playing O'Connor in the corner is like Galway doing the same with Jonny Coen - absolute ridiculous - things now must change in Clare hurling"
2 all Ireland finals 2012 and 15

blackspot91 (Limerick) - Posts: 952 - 31/07/2016 10:38:06    1892683

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Hex with proper coaching and tactics i think the likes of byrnes lynch english hannon Nash hegarty can be as good as any of your stars. Bar maybe kelly. And our 21s and minors were stronger than yours this year and will be again next year with serious talents like Peter casey, Colin ryan, ronan lynch and then the minor brian ryan is excellent (and hopefully his older brother tomas who went to america this year will be back next year as he is an excellent hurler and super athlete). Plenty of others name I could mention.

I dont doubt that clare have some super players but the idea that ye have a way deeper talent pool is an absolute fallacy in my opinion. Even if you look at the respective senior championships ours is much stronger. I was gonna say in my opinion but there's plenty of evidence..

blackspot91 (Limerick) - Posts: 952 - 31/07/2016 11:05:33    1892697

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df i was starting to agree with some of the things you said previously but this post is a bit of a joke. kelly is the best keeper we have - we saw how much his accurate puckouts were missed against galway. im not saying he is absolute top class but he is certainly good enough.
to say o'brien is unproven is a silly comment. no player will be proven if they are sitting on the sideline and in all the games he has played he has been very good. particularly in the championship game against waterford he was excellent. he has been proving himself in every game and he will only get better.
i dont see how you can say mcinerney is not a center back, i was calling for him to be put there last year so i was delighted that he was put there this year. he has almost every skill in the game, i think in terms of versatility and all round ability he is second only to austin gleeson in terms of being able to play in more or less any position. i think he is the future for us at center back.
galvin has had 10 on his back recently but anyone who has watched the clare games will know he has played midfield in every game and also he was outstanding against galway. our best player by a mile!!
there is no perfect team out there like, every team has positions they can improve on even kilkenny!! just because we havent got the perfect team certainly doesnt mean we cant be contenders..

hurlingexpert (Clare) - Posts: 1817 - 01/08/2016 23:24:11    1893827

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Replying To hurlingexpert:  "df i was starting to agree with some of the things you said previously but this post is a bit of a joke. kelly is the best keeper we have - we saw how much his accurate puckouts were missed against galway. im not saying he is absolute top class but he is certainly good enough.
to say o'brien is unproven is a silly comment. no player will be proven if they are sitting on the sideline and in all the games he has played he has been very good. particularly in the championship game against waterford he was excellent. he has been proving himself in every game and he will only get better.
i dont see how you can say mcinerney is not a center back, i was calling for him to be put there last year so i was delighted that he was put there this year. he has almost every skill in the game, i think in terms of versatility and all round ability he is second only to austin gleeson in terms of being able to play in more or less any position. i think he is the future for us at center back.
galvin has had 10 on his back recently but anyone who has watched the clare games will know he has played midfield in every game and also he was outstanding against galway. our best player by a mile!!
there is no perfect team out there like, every team has positions they can improve on even kilkenny!! just because we havent got the perfect team certainly doesnt mean we cant be contenders.."
I dont dispute that Kelly is the best keeper in Clare I just dont think he would get a game for any other top 7 county. O Brien was eaten alive against Limerick in the league final and was marking McGrath for most or all of his 5 point haul in the Tipp game so to say "in all game he has played he has been very good" is not only a "silly comment" it is factually incorrect. I did say he has potential but I wouldnt be saying that he is a match for top players in the country just yet. Just because Clare are not perfect doesnt mean they are not contenders however I have been saying for three years now that Clare have too many gaps to fill to be contenders. I have been saying that Clare are not a top four team and I have been proven right. Hard for you to take no doubt (lets be honest I wouldnt be saying it otherwise) you can make up all the excuses you like but top teams dont lose to Wexford over 2 games, didnt lose to Cork in 15 and dont get beaten by 7 points by Waterford.

disillusiondfan (Limerick) - Posts: 4279 - 02/08/2016 12:24:38    1893974

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Replying To disillusiondfan:  "I dont dispute that Kelly is the best keeper in Clare I just dont think he would get a game for any other top 7 county. O Brien was eaten alive against Limerick in the league final and was marking McGrath for most or all of his 5 point haul in the Tipp game so to say "in all game he has played he has been very good" is not only a "silly comment" it is factually incorrect. I did say he has potential but I wouldnt be saying that he is a match for top players in the country just yet. Just because Clare are not perfect doesnt mean they are not contenders however I have been saying for three years now that Clare have too many gaps to fill to be contenders. I have been saying that Clare are not a top four team and I have been proven right. Hard for you to take no doubt (lets be honest I wouldnt be saying it otherwise) you can make up all the excuses you like but top teams dont lose to Wexford over 2 games, didnt lose to Cork in 15 and dont get beaten by 7 points by Waterford."
Im not denying the facts, what im saying is we have the players to be so much better.
Also you seem to forget that we were down to 13 players for an entire half in one of those wexford games. And were reduced to 14 in the other game, obviously that didnt help - and they are difficult to beat at home most of the time. If anything actually we did fantastically well to not get beaten when we had 2 players less. Although when it was 15 on 15 in extra time, we were far too complacent and probably just very tired actually after doing so well to draw the game originally. You may have forgotten these points - its all not as black and white as you make it seem.
We only lost to cork by a point last year, when we hit what seemed like 25 wides. Cork hit a lot of wides as well but thats not my problem!! Playing o'donnell as the only man inside 50 meters obviously didnt help our cause. And what really didnt help us was our foul count, i dont remember exactly but horgan must have hit 10 frees and he got 2 or 3 from play at the very end when we were ahead.
Every game is different df its not clever to just generalise as you do!

hurlingexpert (Clare) - Posts: 1817 - 03/08/2016 09:00:16    1894472

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Replying To blackspot91:  "
Replying To TouchOfClass:  "All very interesting points coming through but we must agree that being all defensive with at least 7 defenders, 3 in midfield and 4 in attack does not generate exciting hurling, it's too tactical, it's boring and we are now witness to the worst quality hurling for many decades. From a Galway perspective we failed to raise our game against Dublin in the 2013 Leinster Final - the first sign of weakness in the management and the subsequent capitulation against a defensive Clare in the QF left supporters and players alike flat - I am not blaming Clare's defensive strategy as much as Galway management - we were practically invincible in 2012 and rubbish in 2013. Following year 2014 KK beat us in Leinster and Tipp put 10 points on us in the QF and 2015 KK beat us in Leinster Final but we caught Cork on a downward slide and last minute point against Tipp in the semi-final and won't mention the final against KK

Forever the bridesmaid, even though we played in 3 All-Ireland finals from 2012-15, the time duration is long if you are not winning and change is absolutely required - too long listening to the same old tune, management commitment to certain players at the expense of others, huge personal commitment and nothing to show for it - CHANGE must happen - it is important now for Clare hurling to reassess and move on and a complete refresh of management, coaches, hurling board officials - a clean slate

I have tipped Clare to win McCarthy Cup in 2016, I thought that the new management setup might influence the tactic - they failed and Clare failed too. This would be my team for Clare in 2017

Kelly
O'Brien, Dillon, Browne
Morey, McInerney, O'Connor
Galvin, Kelly
B Duggan, Conlon, Cunningham
McGrath, Honan, Collins
(O'Donnell if Collins chooses to be dual player)

New management, new tactical strategy that allows players to maximise their capability - playing O'Connor in the corner is like Galway doing the same with Jonny Coen - absolute ridiculous - things now must change in Clare hurling"
2 all Ireland finals 2012 and 15"
draw and replay 2012

TouchOfClass (Galway) - Posts: 730 - 04/08/2016 10:30:14    1895215

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