Clare Forum

Clare Senior Hurlers 2016

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Replying To mike03:  "Limerick's season was awful. We beat Westmeath. That's it. But I can openly admit we are awful.

The sooner you wake up to Davy the better. He has done nothing for ye. His record in the Munster championship is the worst out of every county since he took over. If it was anyone else but him he would have been out on his ear a long time ago."
Mike im pretty sure everyone on here is pretty awake to davy as you say.. He did deliver us one all ireland, one of only 3 managers to do so in the past 10 seasons! Im not defending him because no disrespect but the difference between clare and limerick is we have the players to achieve so much more. Thats why i think its his time to go. To say he has done nothing is disgraceful but he should have been able to deliver so much more..

hurlingexpert (Clare) - Posts: 1809 - 25/07/2016 13:24:38    1889683

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if davy stays on he has to put trust in his players.let them go out and hurl as everyone knows they can.ye might suffer down there like we do in that some players are rated higher than they actually are.yesterday wasthe first day pressure was put on ye,re puck outs and it was a disaster for ye.i rate o brien,think he is avery tight marker and plenty of heart.o connor had a very quite day and Dillon struggled when put under pressure.mc inerney had a decent 2nd half but the 2 half backs were in trouble.galvin is aclasshurler along with Kelly and I think they are the midfield pairing.i honestlt think that davy struggled in picking his best 6 forwards.i thought it was harsh on reidy yesterday as I felt he was doing alright.shanaher hasthe making of a good forward but think this year was ayear to soon.i still rate ye on a par with galway and Waterford but davy has to put a bit of trust in the hurlers yehave.just one other thing,is ye,re backroom team to big with to many voices?

CTGAA10 (Limerick) - Posts: 966 - 25/07/2016 13:48:50    1889697

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Morey can play corner back, wing back or midfield, yet can barely get a few mins as a sub. That is crazy.

Also, Flanagan played every league game, got concussed v kk, then never seen again. Honan also played one bad game and he is gone. Colin Ryan had a good league, made good contributions in league finals but was largely ignored come summer. The non use of Tots is also odd. Both these lads are also better free takers than Kelly or McGrath. Also, not starting McGrath was a total farce.

Our defenders have become lazy, I said last year that the sweeper system gives lads an excuse not to mark at times. We need to pick lads who are natural defenders. Too many take too much out of the ball.

Shanagher and David Fitz had good solid debut seasons, both strong in the air and will improve but we need to work on the 50/50 tussles and breaking ball which is killing us.

We lack power in midfield, I would like to see David Mac or Golden or even Shanahan if fit tried there with Galvin.

In any sport, soccer, gaelic, rugby or hurling, you need your best players on the ball. Clare need to get ball into Kelly, mcgrath and conlon fast and quick. Our approach play is too slow. Then again we said that the last 3 years and nothing changed.......

Clareman (Clare) - Posts: 977 - 25/07/2016 13:53:49    1889704

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I know its pointless saying this now, and also because team selection is the easiest part of managing a team. But i think this selection with the right instruction could have delivered us a all ireland this year.
1Kelly
2O'Brien
3O'Connor
4Morey
5Cleary
6McInerney
7Dillon
8Reidy
9Galvin
10Conlon
11Collins
12Kelly
13O'Donnell
14Shanagher
15McGrath

hurlingexpert (Clare) - Posts: 1809 - 25/07/2016 13:59:59    1889713

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Replying To Clareman:  "Morey can play corner back, wing back or midfield, yet can barely get a few mins as a sub. That is crazy.

Also, Flanagan played every league game, got concussed v kk, then never seen again. Honan also played one bad game and he is gone. Colin Ryan had a good league, made good contributions in league finals but was largely ignored come summer. The non use of Tots is also odd. Both these lads are also better free takers than Kelly or McGrath. Also, not starting McGrath was a total farce.

Our defenders have become lazy, I said last year that the sweeper system gives lads an excuse not to mark at times. We need to pick lads who are natural defenders. Too many take too much out of the ball.

Shanagher and David Fitz had good solid debut seasons, both strong in the air and will improve but we need to work on the 50/50 tussles and breaking ball which is killing us.

We lack power in midfield, I would like to see David Mac or Golden or even Shanahan if fit tried there with Galvin.

In any sport, soccer, gaelic, rugby or hurling, you need your best players on the ball. Clare need to get ball into Kelly, mcgrath and conlon fast and quick. Our approach play is too slow. Then again we said that the last 3 years and nothing changed......."
True indeed Clareman but will it change, hardly under this management, Davy is a very stubborn man, he is the Trappatoni of Hurling and he has fancy for those get in your face type of players such as Buger Jack Browne Oisin O Brien

Jack was caught fouling again yesterday and Brendan has been past his best for a while now.

If anyone was in Thurles yesterday after half time when Clare came back out you would have seen Bugler Dillon and i think it was Davy Mc they were totally confused Bugler was directing operations who to pick up maybe they were shown dozens of slides or diagrams of systems or whatever but Canning goaled seconds after

How can all the hurling analysts be wrong Brendan Cummins Liam Sheedy Henry ect ect they say this game is destroying us.

I imagine some of the players cannot be too happy now with this

clooney (Clare) - Posts: 452 - 25/07/2016 15:15:01    1889784

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Lohans red helmet, than you for your good wishes.It has been a slow ans painful process, but every day it gets better,Just go od to be around.Like you I was devestated bu Clare's loss to Galway. Was really looking forward to another crack at Kilkenny.Ireally believed we could beat them. Months ago i had a nice bet at 10/1 for Clare to win the ALLIRELAND. Well you cant win them all.I KNOW NOW HEALTH COMES FIRST!!!!!

brianboru (Clare) - Posts: 561 - 25/07/2016 15:46:07    1889818

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Replying To hurlingexpert:  "Mike im pretty sure everyone on here is pretty awake to davy as you say.. He did deliver us one all ireland, one of only 3 managers to do so in the past 10 seasons! Im not defending him because no disrespect but the difference between clare and limerick is we have the players to achieve so much more. Thats why i think its his time to go. To say he has done nothing is disgraceful but he should have been able to deliver so much more.."
We will agree to disagree. 1 win of note in 3 years doesn't show a team that can win much more. No more than ourselves Clare won't be winning any all Irelands in the next few years.

mike03 (Limerick) - Posts: 2000 - 25/07/2016 16:14:12    1889838

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Replying To mike03:  "We will agree to disagree. 1 win of note in 3 years doesn't show a team that can win much more. No more than ourselves Clare won't be winning any all Irelands in the next few years."
The difference though is clare have the players. even kilkenny have average players, look at their leinster final team - holden, lennon, ryan, w.walsh are not quality players - question marks over coli fennelly as well, eoin larkin may be passed it. They have the 2 beat players around in tj and richie. But i think our quality players are as good as anything out there.

hurlingexpert (Clare) - Posts: 1809 - 25/07/2016 17:01:50    1889887

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Replying To hurlingexpert:  "The difference though is clare have the players. even kilkenny have average players, look at their leinster final team - holden, lennon, ryan, w.walsh are not quality players - question marks over coli fennelly as well, eoin larkin may be passed it. They have the 2 beat players around in tj and richie. But i think our quality players are as good as anything out there."
Hexpert I have let a lot of this go. I haven't come on here in ages but in light of your latest offerings now feel I have to make 2 points. 1 you mention a problem with puck outs above. When predicting Clare's year would struggle at the start of 2014 I told you that Clare had no ball winning forwards and would not be a threat because they cannot win puck outs. 2 if Clare have ENOUGH quality players then how come in 3 years Clare could only beat a mismanaged Lomerick team? If Clare have the quality you suggest then surely Clare would have beaten a poor Wexfird over 2 games in 14 would have beaten a poor Cork last year or even given Waterford a game of it in this years championship. Hard to argue with results.

disillusiondfan (Limerick) - Posts: 4279 - 25/07/2016 18:49:33    1889953

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Clare need to abandon the sweeper and go 15 on 15. Pat Donnellan and Conor Ryan were big losses this year. Is Jamie Shanahan still injured? Team for next year should be along the lines of this.

1. Pa Kelly.
2. Oisin O Brien.
3. Cian Dillon.
4. Pat O Connor.
5. David McInerney.
6. Conor Cleary.
7. Pat Donnellan.
8. Colm Galvin.
9. Conor Ryan.
10. John Conlon.
11. Podge Collins.
12. Bobby Duggan.
13. Tony Kelly.
14. Shane O Donnell.
15. Conor McGrath.

All these players can hurl and they need to be let.

happyh10 (Clare) - Posts: 78 - 25/07/2016 19:42:38    1889978

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Replying To disillusiondfan:  "Hexpert I have let a lot of this go. I haven't come on here in ages but in light of your latest offerings now feel I have to make 2 points. 1 you mention a problem with puck outs above. When predicting Clare's year would struggle at the start of 2014 I told you that Clare had no ball winning forwards and would not be a threat because they cannot win puck outs. 2 if Clare have ENOUGH quality players then how come in 3 years Clare could only beat a mismanaged Lomerick team? If Clare have the quality you suggest then surely Clare would have beaten a poor Wexfird over 2 games in 14 would have beaten a poor Cork last year or even given Waterford a game of it in this years championship. Hard to argue with results."
In response df to no 1 - if yoi said then that we have no ball winning forwards you would be wrong because we have onw of the best in john conlon. Aron shanagher is a young lad and albeit an inside forward he is/will be more than capable of winning his own ball. The thing is there is more than one way to win a game of hurling - we needed all these expert analysts to come up with a successful puckout strategy or back up strategy from the route 1 to conlon. Cleary and fitzgerald were pushed forward for puckouts which worked reasonably well until waterford realised what was going on in the league finals. Since fitzgerald was dropped it was balanced a little with cleary going forward on one side and conlon being on the other. It had been working reasonably well until yesterday when we asked far too much of cleary. He was covering center back, pushing up i midfield, going forward for puckouts all while trying to mark a different galway forward every 5 minutes, due to their rotation and movement. I really felt for cleary as far too much was being asked of him. All in all the puckout strategy was an advancement on previous years. But when galway forwards closed off the short puckout option and negated clearys impact in that area we were back to square one again. This is where i think we really missed pa kelly as he is an excellent distributer of the ball, his passing accuracy in those situations would have been vital when fahy was steuggling to find his targets. I hope you can understand all that.
On the second point - well i think everyone here has answered that. We were let down by the possy on the sideline. Everyone knows we have the talent but they have been mis directed it seems..

hurlingexpert (Clare) - Posts: 1809 - 25/07/2016 21:09:10    1890016

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Replying To hurlingexpert:  "In response df to no 1 - if yoi said then that we have no ball winning forwards you would be wrong because we have onw of the best in john conlon. Aron shanagher is a young lad and albeit an inside forward he is/will be more than capable of winning his own ball. The thing is there is more than one way to win a game of hurling - we needed all these expert analysts to come up with a successful puckout strategy or back up strategy from the route 1 to conlon. Cleary and fitzgerald were pushed forward for puckouts which worked reasonably well until waterford realised what was going on in the league finals. Since fitzgerald was dropped it was balanced a little with cleary going forward on one side and conlon being on the other. It had been working reasonably well until yesterday when we asked far too much of cleary. He was covering center back, pushing up i midfield, going forward for puckouts all while trying to mark a different galway forward every 5 minutes, due to their rotation and movement. I really felt for cleary as far too much was being asked of him. All in all the puckout strategy was an advancement on previous years. But when galway forwards closed off the short puckout option and negated clearys impact in that area we were back to square one again. This is where i think we really missed pa kelly as he is an excellent distributer of the ball, his passing accuracy in those situations would have been vital when fahy was steuggling to find his targets. I hope you can understand all that.
On the second point - well i think everyone here has answered that. We were let down by the possy on the sideline. Everyone knows we have the talent but they have been mis directed it seems.."
Conlon on his own cannot make a half forward line. Do you not remember me saying that Ryan Honan or Kelly ( you argued Kelly could because of one catch he made) couldn't win enough high ball and that Peter Duggan couldn't do anything with it if he did win it. Asking half backs to win puck outs instead of half forwards was never going to work long term. Clare have been struggling to win primary possession for years no change there.Anyone watching the last 10 mins of the Limerick game would know that pushing up on Clare cutting out short puck outs would yield dividends. Did the possy on the sideline let ye down against an appalling Wexford in 14 against a woeful cork in 15? You it seems think you can argue with results!! Think Hexpett you have to admit I have been fairly accurate in my analysis going back 3 years now.

disillusiondfan (Limerick) - Posts: 4279 - 25/07/2016 21:41:32    1890038

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I haven't been on this site since the Limerick game cause I was at odds with my thoughts! I think yesterday has helped me somewhat and this is where I am.

This is a very average team - yes there's very talented players on it but winning requires more than talent. Results are everything, this team's Championship form is very poor and they havent even met Tipp or Kilkenny (2012-2016)

2013 was a freak year in hurling - none of the semi-finalists have made any impression in the game since! Tipp, Kilkenny and Galway have come back to dominate. Yesterday, Galway bossed Clare around the place. What would Tipp or Kilkenny do to them?

I've really enjoyed watching these guys since they came onto the scene at under 21 level - I'm a big fan and I do hope they can develop into a competitive Championship team. They were bossed around the park against Waterford in the Munster Semi final and the same happened yesterday - it doesnt give me any satisfaction to say they are just not up to it.

Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1007 - 25/07/2016 22:07:11    1890051

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Replying To hurlingexpert:  "The difference though is clare have the players. even kilkenny have average players, look at their leinster final team - holden, lennon, ryan, w.walsh are not quality players - question marks over coli fennelly as well, eoin larkin may be passed it. They have the 2 beat players around in tj and richie. But i think our quality players are as good as anything out there."
Well if you ate goung on pkayers then Linerick have a lot more to come through in the next 2 to 3 years than Clare do. In Peter Casey & Brian Ryan we have 2 of the best 18 & 19 year olds in Ireland. So we have potential. I cant see what you have to make you think that you are better than the last 3 years of results.

mike03 (Limerick) - Posts: 2000 - 25/07/2016 22:27:09    1890062

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Replying To disillusiondfan:  "Conlon on his own cannot make a half forward line. Do you not remember me saying that Ryan Honan or Kelly ( you argued Kelly could because of one catch he made) couldn't win enough high ball and that Peter Duggan couldn't do anything with it if he did win it. Asking half backs to win puck outs instead of half forwards was never going to work long term. Clare have been struggling to win primary possession for years no change there.Anyone watching the last 10 mins of the Limerick game would know that pushing up on Clare cutting out short puck outs would yield dividends. Did the possy on the sideline let ye down against an appalling Wexford in 14 against a woeful cork in 15? You it seems think you can argue with results!! Think Hexpett you have to admit I have been fairly accurate in my analysis going back 3 years now."
Im trying to have a constructive debate here, this is not about self justification of ones own opinion. Everyone in clare knows conlon is our only reliable ball winner. What you dont seem to get is that there is more than 1 way of playing the game. We have numerous players with different qualities and thats the most important thing to get the most out of them rather than putting square pegs in round holes. Its not all about lumping everything down on half forwards because unless as we say there are consistent ball winners there then its nothing more than caveman tactics - i admire our management for coming up with a new method this year. In the end though we reverted to this caveman style and it cost us. But obviously im very critical of management in a overall sense due to their general approach and restricting our players of playing to their capabilities. Puckout strategy could have worked better if, 1 we had pa kelly in goal 2 if conlon did not have an off day in terms of winning these puckouts 3 if cleary wasnt being asked to do the job of 2 or 3 players at the same time 4 we tried fitzgerald more advanced 5 gave peter duggan another chance -Peter has all the ability in the world and is one of the best ive seen in the air but he doesnt seem to cut it at this level YET which is very disappointing for everyone.

hurlingexpert (Clare) - Posts: 1809 - 25/07/2016 23:38:26    1890079

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Replying To hurlingexpert:  "I know its pointless saying this now, and also because team selection is the easiest part of managing a team. But i think this selection with the right instruction could have delivered us a all ireland this year.
1Kelly
2O'Brien
3O'Connor
4Morey
5Cleary
6McInerney
7Dillon
8Reidy
9Galvin
10Conlon
11Collins
12Kelly
13O'Donnell
14Shanagher
15McGrath"
Hexpert with respect you're dreaming or maybe on something if you think that team would have won an all irl this yr your team is ok to good on paper from 8 up but with the odd exception from 1-7 no where good enough it took us a while in limk to realise some of our so called stars weren't up to it it might take you a while to realise the same but you eventually will the results just don't lie. Genuinely not scoring points by the way just my belief I actually tipped Clare for all irl earlier in yr

someday (Limerick) - Posts: 1073 - 25/07/2016 23:47:58    1890080

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Replying To hurlingexpert:  "Im trying to have a constructive debate here, this is not about self justification of ones own opinion. Everyone in clare knows conlon is our only reliable ball winner. What you dont seem to get is that there is more than 1 way of playing the game. We have numerous players with different qualities and thats the most important thing to get the most out of them rather than putting square pegs in round holes. Its not all about lumping everything down on half forwards because unless as we say there are consistent ball winners there then its nothing more than caveman tactics - i admire our management for coming up with a new method this year. In the end though we reverted to this caveman style and it cost us. But obviously im very critical of management in a overall sense due to their general approach and restricting our players of playing to their capabilities. Puckout strategy could have worked better if, 1 we had pa kelly in goal 2 if conlon did not have an off day in terms of winning these puckouts 3 if cleary wasnt being asked to do the job of 2 or 3 players at the same time 4 we tried fitzgerald more advanced 5 gave peter duggan another chance -Peter has all the ability in the world and is one of the best ive seen in the air but he doesnt seem to cut it at this level YET which is very disappointing for everyone."
Come off it Hexpert no matter how many alternatives you have you need to go long ( revert to cave man tactics) sometimes. If I read properly you were critical of Walter Walsh but his primary function is to contest puck outs. Cody is a huge believer of these caveman tactics and has used them to win AIs. What worked for Clare in 13 didn't work in 14. What worked in league i.e. using Cleary and Fitz hasn't worked since. Ye can than TJs tactical ineptitude for allowing ye to take short puck outs for 55mins cos when we pushed up ye couldn't win puck outs. I'm not looking for self justification by the way I'm pointing out that this has been a problem for years and ordinary joes like mys leg called it as it was and as it has panned out. Clare are as far away from winning an AI as we are. Picking a different team like you have is simply rearranging deck chairs on a sinking ship.

disillusiondfan (Limerick) - Posts: 4279 - 26/07/2016 11:12:26    1890228

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Replying To Clareman:  "Morey can play corner back, wing back or midfield, yet can barely get a few mins as a sub. That is crazy.

Also, Flanagan played every league game, got concussed v kk, then never seen again. Honan also played one bad game and he is gone. Colin Ryan had a good league, made good contributions in league finals but was largely ignored come summer. The non use of Tots is also odd. Both these lads are also better free takers than Kelly or McGrath. Also, not starting McGrath was a total farce.

Our defenders have become lazy, I said last year that the sweeper system gives lads an excuse not to mark at times. We need to pick lads who are natural defenders. Too many take too much out of the ball.

Shanagher and David Fitz had good solid debut seasons, both strong in the air and will improve but we need to work on the 50/50 tussles and breaking ball which is killing us.

We lack power in midfield, I would like to see David Mac or Golden or even Shanahan if fit tried there with Galvin.

In any sport, soccer, gaelic, rugby or hurling, you need your best players on the ball. Clare need to get ball into Kelly, mcgrath and conlon fast and quick. Our approach play is too slow. Then again we said that the last 3 years and nothing changed......."
Well you are right about this sweeper business. About ten minutes into the second half of the LK/CL game , after the much criticised Seamus Hickey came on and seemed to contain Galvin well every single LK back including O'Mahony seemed to be holding their own, yet we still played a sweeper, when trailing and playing with the wind and sun. With this attitude no wonder we are going nowhere.

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 2275 - 26/07/2016 11:37:52    1890252

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Replying To disillusiondfan:  "Come off it Hexpert no matter how many alternatives you have you need to go long ( revert to cave man tactics) sometimes. If I read properly you were critical of Walter Walsh but his primary function is to contest puck outs. Cody is a huge believer of these caveman tactics and has used them to win AIs. What worked for Clare in 13 didn't work in 14. What worked in league i.e. using Cleary and Fitz hasn't worked since. Ye can than TJs tactical ineptitude for allowing ye to take short puck outs for 55mins cos when we pushed up ye couldn't win puck outs. I'm not looking for self justification by the way I'm pointing out that this has been a problem for years and ordinary joes like mys leg called it as it was and as it has panned out. Clare are as far away from winning an AI as we are. Picking a different team like you have is simply rearranging deck chairs on a sinking ship."
Yeah as you say sometimes - but not always. Luckily we have conlon who is one of the best around so we can go to him but when he moved inside though after shanagher went off we were lost!

We just have to find alternatives, just a pity that all our options fell on the same day ie going to conlon, pushing cleary up, going short.

Everyone would love to have the luxury of a team who can all win their own ball but the fact is that no one has more than 2 or 3 in the forward line.
I do think walter walsh is an average player but i do acknowledge that his primary function is to win puckouts - hes not exactly keeping any quality forwards out of the team though as their depth of forwards is not what it was..
Kilkenny have always had these ball winners who are quality hurlers - everyone knows thats a huge reason for their success.
Its only caveman tactics if there arent players there to win the ball.

7-10 years ago we had a forward line where all 6 were capable of winning their own ball but the current group are much better hurlers.
For clarification that 6 would have been diarmuid mcmahon, tony carmody, tony griffin, niall gilligan, barry nugent and alan markham to a lessex extent!

And that selection i threw out above was an example of how id like to have seen us line out and thus changing ship rather than remaining on a sinking one!

Hypothetically if both counties are under new management next year then clare will have a way better chance than limerick, because limerick have no one as good as mcinerney, kelly, mcgrath, galvin or conlon.

hurlingexpert (Clare) - Posts: 1809 - 26/07/2016 12:35:28    1890314

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What you need is a blend of power and strength. We need to add a ball winner to help Conlon (Shanagher showed glimpse this year and he is only 19. As Oldtourman correctly pointed out, limerick got on top in last 20 so our only option was long to shanagher and it led to a few scores. The direct route destroyed KK in April and we never went back to it until last 10 v galway and we created 2/3 goal chances, albeit only 1 was clear cut.

If Limerick get in a good coach and we stick with Davy, they will pass us out fairly quick. That is a fact. We must change or forget it. Any other coach in any other county would be gone by now or else have walked away.

To me, we are short 2 backs, a powerful midfielder to help Galvin, another half forward and we must settle on a inside front 3. We also have only 1 freetaker who is reliable and he cant start so even when playing bad we cant hang in their as we miss handy scores.

Shane Dowling is a very limited forward in open play but he can break ball and scores his frees. For that alone he would walk on Clare team.

Clareman (Clare) - Posts: 977 - 26/07/2016 13:15:29    1890360

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