|
Replying To omahant: "I'd be of the view that if restrictions are not explicitly stated, they don't exist -
a bit like the VERY EXPLICIT '20 seconds limit' kick out rule :)" Or they allow a simple format through Congress this weekend with a motion later in the year to keep winning provincial winners apart in Round 2A.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8535 - 20/02/2025 14:30:52
2592100
Link
0
|
|
ALTERNATIVE FOOTBALL INTER COUNTY SEASON
Here is how the 3 Divisions of the N.L could look like.
DIVISION 1[ 12 Teams]
1A
Galway
Kerry
Derry
Roscommon
Tyrone
Cavan
1B
Armagh
Donegal
Dublin
Mayo
Monaghan
Cork
In The Championship Division1A teams play Division 1B [for a 6 game schedule in one single 12 team group]
Kerry ---A.I.C games are---Armagh Donegal Dublin Mayo Monaghan and Cork.
Dublin -A.I.C games are ---Galway Kerry Derry Roscommon Tyrone and Cavan.
Bear in mind that after the League that one D1 team will be relegated to the Intermediate Championship to be replaced by D2 Winner.
DIVISION 2 [ 12 Teams]
2A
Meath
Fermanagh
Down
Clare
Antrim
Wicklow
2B
Louth
Kildare
Westmeath
Sligo
Offaly
Laois
DIVISION 3 [8 Teams]
NORTH
Leitrim
Longford
Tipperary
London
SOUTH
Limerick
Wexford
Carlow
Waterford
Along with playing each team in its own division -teams play 2 opponents from opposite division to make for a 5 game schedule in order to match the D1 + D2 schedule.
edu (Mayo) - Posts: 89 - 20/02/2025 21:47:03
2592183
Link
0
|
|
@edu (Mayo) - Posts: 87 - 20/02/2025 21:47:03
Just wondering if your 'mid season' relegation is better than at 'season end' after AIC? Little difference, I suppose - because either way, a D1 or D2 team will play all 'own tier' 11 opponents in consecutive AIC/League.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 3086 - 20/02/2025 23:19:40
2592192
Link
0
|
|
Replying To omahant: "@edu (Mayo) - Posts: 87 - 20/02/2025 21:47:03
Just wondering if your 'mid season' relegation is better than at 'season end' after AIC? Little difference, I suppose - because either way, a D1 or D2 team will play all 'own tier' 11 opponents in consecutive AIC/League." There is season end relegation [and promotion] after A.I.C . but it is to the following seasons League. Under this rolling link structure a Tier 3 team is potentially never more than one season away from being a Tier 1 team.
edu (Mayo) - Posts: 89 - 21/02/2025 00:05:35
2592193
Link
0
|
|
The football championship could take on the 4 groups of 5 format if the season was extended to the end of August. The club championships would have to be allowed complete at the end of February, meaning decoupling league from championship.
In 4 groups of 5, 2nd and 3rd can go through to preliminary quarter finals with less complaints. The 8 quarter finalists can automatically qualify for the following year. A carrot for winning the group being guaranteed qualification for the following year.
All counties can be ranked 1 to 32 on championship performance. Where counties exit at the same stage, the previous best championship performance can determine who ranks higher.
The 20 competing in the All Ireland then can be 8 provincial finalists, 8 quarter finalists from the previous year, 1 Tailteann winner and 3 wildcards based on championship ranking. Where there is duplication of qualification, simply allow more wildcards.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8535 - 21/02/2025 02:41:45
2592195
Link
0
|
|
Replying To edu: "There is season end relegation [and promotion after A.I.C . but it is to the following seasons League. Under this rolling link structure a Tier 3 team is potentially never more than one season away from being a Tier 1 team."]I think this is the big problem with the current format. Good championship performance doesn't get rewarded in the championship structure.
Division 2 teams are really scrapping to get into the top tier competition. They don't even know what they need to do to get in there. So every game in Division 2 is a dog fight. In Division 3 it is imperative to get promoted so again vital importance on every game to join that dogfight for the following year. For these teams the provincial championship is also massive; getting to the provincial final is the only way to assure your participation outside maybe the top 10.
So after this intense dogfight to get into the competition the reward is then to go into the group stages to play the Division 1 teams who effectively have used the league for blooding new players and get lads peaking for the Knock out rounds. The lack of real jeopardy in these groups creates a lull where the intensity can drop off completely.
While the double elimination format will help out here - it doesn't change that Kerry can plan to peak for June whereas Cork need to be on it for February and March and again in the early summer.
brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 391 - 21/02/2025 10:38:09
2592232
Link
0
|
|
Replying To edu: "There is season end relegation [and promotion after A.I.C . but it is to the following seasons League. Under this rolling link structure a Tier 3 team is potentially never more than one season away from being a Tier 1 team."]Nice.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 3086 - 21/02/2025 13:19:28
2592278
Link
0
|
|
Replying To legendzxix: "The football championship could take on the 4 groups of 5 format if the season was extended to the end of August. The club championships would have to be allowed complete at the end of February, meaning decoupling league from championship.
In 4 groups of 5, 2nd and 3rd can go through to preliminary quarter finals with less complaints. The 8 quarter finalists can automatically qualify for the following year. A carrot for winning the group being guaranteed qualification for the following year.
All counties can be ranked 1 to 32 on championship performance. Where counties exit at the same stage, the previous best championship performance can determine who ranks higher.
The 20 competing in the All Ireland then can be 8 provincial finalists, 8 quarter finalists from the previous year, 1 Tailteann winner and 3 wildcards based on championship ranking. Where there is duplication of qualification, simply allow more wildcards." I'd amend slightly (might be more transparent):
Where counties exit at the same stage, the RECENT LEAGUE performance can determine who ranks higher. Although league is decoupled, this is a modest tie breaker.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 3086 - 21/02/2025 13:22:43
2592279
Link
0
|
|
@brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 391 - 21/02/2025 10:38:09
Like rugby union's World Cup, there's a lot to be said for the best performers in a one tournament getting automatic berths for the next one.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 3086 - 21/02/2025 13:29:22
2592281
Link
1
|
|
Replying To omahant: "I'd amend slightly (might be more transparent):
Where counties exit at the same stage, the RECENT LEAGUE performance can determine who ranks higher. Although league is decoupled, this is a modest tie breaker." The Errigal Ciaran contingent aren't back playing with Tyrone yet. It is flawed to be using league linked to championship when intercounty players who've played in the latter stages of the club championships need a break.
There is enough incentive in the league as seen in hurling this year that the top division brings bigger crowds and more money.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8535 - 21/02/2025 14:44:50
2592292
Link
0
|
|
So the group stage proved a dismal favour and now we return in 2026 to a qualifier system which I can only hope is a temporary solution squabbled together in panic.
Due to Munster seeding their championship we again arrive at a situation where Kerry, regardless of league form, require only one win each year to guarantee a home fixture in the Last 16 of AISFC, and subsequently ensure their seeding for the following year's Munster Championship. Of the four teams Kerry could possibly face, three are Division Four and one is Division Two.
Kerry essentially have a permanent bye into a home Last 16 match against a non-provincial finalist regardless of whether they lose every league game from here to eternity.
SurelyToGod (Donegal) - Posts: 446 - 22/02/2025 18:48:09
2592486
Link
1
|
|
@SurelyToGod (Donegal) - Posts: 445 - 22/02/2025 18:48:09
They could do better -
4 Champs + 1 Tailteann + 11 League High
8 Div 1 teams host AIC Rd 1
omahant (USA) - Posts: 3086 - 22/02/2025 20:24:28
2592505
Link
0
|
|
So the double elimination is in for the next few years from 2026. The qualifying process remains the same. A better option and has been echoed by many posters on here is to use The Championship as the main qualifier for the following years Championship.
One way is --
Qualifying route for following years A.I.C
All Teams [12] reaching Q.F + R3 qualify automatically.
The 4 losing teams in R2B play off for 1 pace .[ 2 S.F + Final] [These P.O.s mean teams are guaranteed 3 games in A.I.C]
Provincial Qualifying path [In the following year] ------- 2 places.
Tailteann Cup winner.
PROVINCAL QUALIFYING PATH [2 PLACES]
Teams reaching Provincial Finals and S.Fs in Ulster and Leinster.
Ranked as follows------
1--4 Provincial Winners.
5--6 Ulster + Leinster runners up.
7--12 Connacht + Munster runners up + Ulster S.Fs + Leinster S.Fs
League rankings to determine rankings within each of the 3 subsets.
How would it work in reality. Here 2023 and 2024 are used as an example.
The 13 teams [top 3 in each group ] + the 4th team with best record in 2023 qualify for 2024 A.I.C. were as follows-Dublin Kerry Derry Monaghan Tyrone Armagh Cork Mayo Roscommon Kildare Donegal Galway and Westmeath.
Meath have qualified as Tailteann Cup winner.
PROVINCIAL RANKINGS[ in 2024][ 2 guaranteed spots available in A.,I.C] ---a.q = already qualified
1------ Dublin [a.q]
2------ Kerry [a.q]
3------ Galway [a,q]
4------Donegal [a.q]
5------ Armagh[ a.q]
6------ Louth [A.I.C]
7------Mayo [a.q]
8------ Tyrone [a.q]
9------ Down [ A.I.C]
10----- Kildare [a.q]
11----- Clare
12----- Offaly
So Louth and Down qualify for A.I.C as the 2 highest of the teams not already qualified through the 2023 A.I.C + T.C.
What happened in 2024 in reality was that just one team qualified for the A.I.C through the Provincial only route and that team was Clare. In the above example Down [Ulster S.F] just pipped Clare for the last spot in the A.I.C. It does seem fair to include S.F Teams from Ulster and Leinster as those team have to play 2 or 3 games to reach a Provincial Final where teams from Connacht and Munster play 1 or 2 to reach the same stage.
Under the current qualifying system it is possible that in some [or a lot] of years that actually no teams qualify for the A.I.C through the Provincial only route. Guaranteeing 2 qualifying places seem just about right. Remember that the vast majority of the teams in the 12 Team Provincial Path will have already qualified through the previous years Championship and having an excess number of weaker teams in the A.IC does tend to dilute it. In turn it means that the T.C might have teams that are just a little above that level which in turn makes it even more difficult for the lesser lights of the lower divisions to shine. Even getting to a T.C. S.F and and an appearance in Croke Park becomes more difficult.
Another suggestion is that the 8 seeded teams in the A.I.C R1 would be the 8 Q.Fs from the previous year.
edu (Mayo) - Posts: 89 - 23/02/2025 01:02:24
2592542
Link
0
|
|
Winning provincial winners should not be drawn against each other in Round 2A. I'll be sending GAA HQ correspondence on the matter. Central Council should bring a motion in the Autumn for winning provincial winners to be kept apart in Round 2A.
No other format has gained traction. Counties are not enthused about introducing a Third Tier.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8535 - 23/02/2025 06:53:32
2592550
Link
0
|
|
A fairly simple solution, that keeps the Provincials linked and has a proper group stage and All Ireland championship being used to determine the following season's participants could look as follows.
All Ireland is 2 tiers of 8
At the end of each season there are 16 preliminary qualified teams.
13 from the All Ireland. Top 6 in each group plus a winner of a game between the 7th placed teams.
At the start of the following season there are the Provincials.
Unqualified Provincial champions win a place in the All Ireland.
Unqualified Provincial finalists get a place in a playoff round.
The 16 preliminary qualifiers all get at least a place in the playoffs.
There could be anywhere from 0 to 8 playoffs depending on how the Provincials go but no team can be eliminated solely by results from another province.
Provincial champions qualifying seems a reasonable reward and retains that tradition.
Leinster teams are still engaged in the competition with a final birth giving them a playoff shot.
The season can be played in 21 weeks. 6 for Provincials and playoffs. 10 for group stage, 5 for knockout rounds, quarterfinals on.
It's kind of getting teams playing all the good games in the championship and cutting some of the fat from the season.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4400 - 23/02/2025 09:30:26
2592558
Link
0
|
|
@edu (Mayo) - Posts: 89 - 23/02/2025 01:02:24
Good, logical points there.
I like:
Prior 12 to next Sam (Rd 1 & 2B winners)
Prov stream qualifiers (could extend ranks to 4+2+6+20)
I don't like:
Rd 2B losers playoffs (SFs & Final is too clunky). Instead, I'd increase 'next year's' Prov qualifiers to 3 (from 2).
omahant (USA) - Posts: 3086 - 23/02/2025 14:41:01
2592602
Link
0
|