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@legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8374 - 18/12/2024 17:40:09
Your idea there would certainly be better than the current hodge-podge.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2940 - 19/12/2024 03:53:03
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Replying To omahant: "@legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8374 - 18/12/2024 17:40:09
Your idea there would certainly be better than the current hodge-podge." Thanks. It is one option. The number of direct league qualifiers is too high. Monaghan have been knocked out of Ulster the last few years without any real jeopardy as a consequence.
There is an argument that only the All Ireland winner, Tailteann winner and Division 1 winner should qualify automatically before the provincial championships. In 2024 that would have been Dublin, Meath and Derry. With Dublin also qualifying for the Leinster final, there would have been 6 spots vacant for non finalists.
The best 12 ranked on league could have entered a knockout playoff for more jeopardy. Seeded 6 v unseeded 6. Example:
Tyrone v Down
Roscommon v Fermanagh
Monaghan v Kildare
Cavan v Sligo
Cork v Antrim
Westmeath v Offaly
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8385 - 19/12/2024 08:04:21
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Replying To Whammo86: " Replying To legendzxix: "I was listening to the sports news when he said it while a draw was taking place during the summer! https://www.rte.ie/sport/football/2024/0617/1455104-burns-football-championship-change-likely-next-season/Leinster and Ulster get a raw deal that they have to win at least 2 games for All Ireland qualification while some Connacht and Munster counties only have to win 1 game. Possibly under the current setup Ulster and Leinster semi-finalists should qualify? It would spice up the early provincial rounds if only 3 places were available through the league." I just think this is moving in the wrong direction, going more like a worse version of the old qualifier system. At the heart of a lot of these issues are the GAA trying to go halfway towards a solution. Do we want a tiered championship or not. Well one of the main reasons for tiering competition is to allow more games at a level without losing intensity because you have promotion and relegation. You are then moving away from a knockout based championship. It's kind of absurd to me that we are going from a double elimination championship to a triple elimination championship. I don't think there was a big issue in the past in terms of the championship determining the winner of the All Ireland. The issue was with having teams only guaranteed 2 matches in the main competition but barely any impact would be felt by having a triple elimination competition. I feel like then the association also prioritises existing lesser important factors at the expense of getting the flagship competition right. National league 4 divisions of 8 set up National League finals Tailteann Cup All Ireland quarterfinals. Provincials being linked to All Ireland League also flowing into All Ireland These are all things that are getting protected and are hampering in some way the flexibility to come up with are more harmonious championship. None of the above elements are bad in their own right but they can't all coexist."
I think we should break the connection back to the league and replace it with a properly tiered competition. Even the current group format would work if we did that - once there's a threat of relegation coming from poor championship performance every game will matter a bit more.
If the GAA decide to have a properly tiered competition based on championship performance the GAA can then decide on what format this takes - 12/10/10 or 16/16. There are plenty of ways to reward provincial and league performance into this system - but they shouldn't drive it.
brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 370 - 19/12/2024 09:15:01
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Replying To brianb: " Replying To Whammo86: "[quote=legendzxix: "I was listening to the sports news when he said it while a draw was taking place during the summer! https://www.rte.ie/sport/football/2024/0617/1455104-burns-football-championship-change-likely-next-season/Leinster and Ulster get a raw deal that they have to win at least 2 games for All Ireland qualification while some Connacht and Munster counties only have to win 1 game. Possibly under the current setup Ulster and Leinster semi-finalists should qualify? It would spice up the early provincial rounds if only 3 places were available through the league." I just think this is moving in the wrong direction, going more like a worse version of the old qualifier system. At the heart of a lot of these issues are the GAA trying to go halfway towards a solution. Do we want a tiered championship or not. Well one of the main reasons for tiering competition is to allow more games at a level without losing intensity because you have promotion and relegation. You are then moving away from a knockout based championship. It's kind of absurd to me that we are going from a double elimination championship to a triple elimination championship. I don't think there was a big issue in the past in terms of the championship determining the winner of the All Ireland. The issue was with having teams only guaranteed 2 matches in the main competition but barely any impact would be felt by having a triple elimination competition. I feel like then the association also prioritises existing lesser important factors at the expense of getting the flagship competition right. National league 4 divisions of 8 set up National League finals Tailteann Cup All Ireland quarterfinals. Provincials being linked to All Ireland League also flowing into All Ireland These are all things that are getting protected and are hampering in some way the flexibility to come up with are more harmonious championship. None of the above elements are bad in their own right but they can't all coexist."
I think we should break the connection back to the league and replace it with a properly tiered competition. Even the current group format would work if we did that - once there's a threat of relegation coming from poor championship performance every game will matter a bit more.
If the GAA decide to have a properly tiered competition based on championship performance the GAA can then decide on what format this takes - 12/10/10 or 16/16. There are plenty of ways to reward provincial and league performance into this system - but they shouldn't drive it."]The templates are there already in
Club football, plus Club and County hurling, camogie and ladies football.
Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 2003 - 19/12/2024 10:44:17
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The templates are most definitely there in club championships around the country.
The majority of provincial finalists knocked out in their first All Ireland match will have played 4 matches in total. (I don't think the 1 county in Connacht and 2 in Munster receiving a bye to semi finals can be complaining too much.)
Counties knocked out of their province and then their first qualifier were only getting 2 games. They could be given a third game by entering a secondary competition, aka the Tailteann Cup, that rewards the winner with at least a qualifier spot in the following year.
There would have to be third tier though for teams not in the qualifiers and Tailteann, where they would get at least 2 games in the third tier.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8385 - 19/12/2024 11:21:03
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@brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 370 - 19/12/2024 09:15:01
In my AILC - I have:
'Season-long' performance determining the AIC KO route
'Top 8' to AI Sam (AFL playoff format)
Bottom 12 vying for 'AI Plate KO QF 8' berths
Other 'bookended' 12 to 'AI Shield KO 12' (QF8 to Tier 1, PQF losers to Tier 2, the following year).
Example
In 2025, if Donegal is Ulster Champ, they might earn 8 pts (if v 4 top 16 opponents) in my AILC structure and play 8 other 'league only' ties.
If Kerry beats Cork, the get only 2 pts and play 11 other 'league only' ties.
If Clare beats Tipp or Waterford, they similarly get 2 pts in Tier 2 and play 11 other 'league only' Tier 2 ties.
Better reward for the hard road, I 'think'.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2940 - 19/12/2024 14:18:26
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Niall Morgan admitted it was ridiculous that he would kick out the ball, receive a pass from a defender and then stroll up the field unchallenged.
Roscommon and Monaghan were relegated from Division 1, lost their opening provincial match and had no jeopardy to their All Ireland qualification. If they had to go through a playoff it would add some bit of jeopardy.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8385 - 19/12/2024 15:06:24
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Replying To legendzxix: "Niall Morgan admitted it was ridiculous that he would kick out the ball, receive a pass from a defender and then stroll up the field unchallenged.
Roscommon and Monaghan were relegated from Division 1, lost their opening provincial match and had no jeopardy to their All Ireland qualification. If they had to go through a playoff it would add some bit of jeopardy." Ok but where your idea falls down is that some of the least deserving teams getting entry have come through a soft route through their provincial championship.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4343 - 19/12/2024 16:32:31
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Replying To Whammo86: "Ok but where your idea falls down is that some of the least deserving teams getting entry have come through a soft route through their provincial championship." Provincial draws based on league ranking is a solution for that. Derry, Tyrone, Armagh and Donegal seeded in Ulster quarter finals. Derry and Tyrone on opposite sides of the draw. Dublin, Meath, Louth and Westmeath seeded in Leinster quarter finals. Dublin and Meath on opposite sides of the draw. Kerry and Cork on opposite sides of the Munster draw. Mayo and Galway on opposite sides of the Connacht draw.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8385 - 19/12/2024 18:08:37
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Replying To legendzxix: "Provincial draws based on league ranking is a solution for that. Derry, Tyrone, Armagh and Donegal seeded in Ulster quarter finals. Derry and Tyrone on opposite sides of the draw. Dublin, Meath, Louth and Westmeath seeded in Leinster quarter finals. Dublin and Meath on opposite sides of the draw. Kerry and Cork on opposite sides of the Munster draw. Mayo and Galway on opposite sides of the Connacht draw." I hear you on the league route into the All Ireland is providing too much comfort for counties.
I think the better solution would be to fold the league into the All Ireland and have it be dictating qualification going forward.
Like you'd have something along the lines of:
2 groups of 8 for the All Ireland, 6 teams qualify the rest are playing to finish as high as possible to qualify the following season.
16 teams should be provisionally qualified at the end of the season.
Winning a Provincial championship could gain automatic entry, getting to a Provincial final gets a playoff which will be played against the lowest ranked provisionally qualified teams from the previous season.
It's a more streamlined season, more All Ireland games but they are still intense and the provincials maintain a link and more appropriate one at that.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4343 - 20/12/2024 10:27:57
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@Whammo86, another option as well. It appears the old Christy Ring format will be approved for 2026. Within the confines of that format, inserting a playoff would inject some bit of jeopardy and get the competitive juices flowing.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8385 - 20/12/2024 12:08:07
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@Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4342 - 20/12/2024 10:27:57
There wouldn't be league "comfort" in my AILC - teams have to "earn" sufficient match pts to be placed 8th or higher to advance to the AIC Sam Series (double chance PSFs for the 'top 4' injects an additional incentive).
Match pts for Prov KO ties (own tier only) is a 'halfway house' between linking and delinking Prov SFCs to the AIC.
Example
If Donegal wins its 4 rds to the 2025 Ulster title, it would likely earn 8 league pts (record of 'four and oh') - and would likely need an additional 2-6 (or 3-5 to be sure), from its remaining '8 league-only' games to be placed 8th and an AIC Sam berth.
This contrasts with Munster - Kerry can only earn a max of 2 pts (beating Cork in SF; while beating Clare in Final earns no pts, given inter-tier stand alone, a 13th match).
Unlike the Swiss System in the UCL with its computerised random match selection (you'd need to see the schedule to know the pairings), I went for a manual group draw, so pairings are easily known (avoid own group, play other 12). Groups are just a tool to reduce a 'too-much 15' to 12 matches. My draw is after QFs to ensure each SF4 is split across 4 groups to ensure SFs & Final are not in same group (Prelim and QF losers can then also be drawn to groups without the '1 or 2 teams' they've played).
To have an alternative shorter 10-game schedule instead, it's a bit more complicated but can work with groups of 6,5,5, with placeholders possibly needed for SF winners/ losers, if more than 2 Provs have their SF4 present.
What are the main challenges to my AILC? - no Prov Champ Sam berth guarantee, or a Tier 2 Prov Champ can only advance to the Shield at best?
Would the Shield be worth winning (a la Europa League)?
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2940 - 20/12/2024 15:06:17
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Replying To legendzxix: "The Dublin motion for county players having more game time with their clubs has set the cat amongst the pigeons. Possibly alternating weekends of Allianz leagues and county leagues is the approach to take?
That should mean decoupling the Allianz Football league from the All Ireland. Unless provincial championships can be decoupled as well, a tiered provincial structure is the only way to go.
Briefly. Leinster and Ulster in 2 groups of 4 each. Connacht and Munster in 1 group of 4 each. Promotion and relegation to a Tier 2 of 8 teams in whatever agreed format.
ALL IRELAND PLAYOFF SEMI FINALS (8 teams)
Third placed teams from the 6 provincial groups, a Tier 2 Tailteann Cup winner from the current year and New York.
ALL IRELAND PLAYOFF FINALS (8 teams)
2 Ulster semi finalists, 2 Leinster semi finalists and 4 playoff semi final winners.
ALL IRELAND PRELIMINARY QUARTER FINALS (8 teams)
4 provincial runners up and 4 playoff winners.
ALL IRELAND QUARTER FINALS (8 teams)
4 provincial winners and 4 Pre QF winners." As you stated, I also don't think 'decoupling' Prov SFCs would get approved (e.g. Ulster says NO! in particular). My AILC neither fully couples nor decouples - with no Sam guarantee, Prov match pts are kind of a halfway house.
The 'alternating week' schedule though is a good one.
Given a total playing calendar of about 40 weeks (say, start-Feb to mid-Nov) - I suppose to be objectively fair - the inter-county and club should allocate evenly - each get 20 weeks, maybe split into 4 windows. That would require a smaller inter-county footprint - maybe with league reduced to 4-6 games.
As the league with its '4 divs of 8' is so popular - it could be left in place - a Swiss System could reduce the schedule from 7 games.
Say, for scheduling only - teams are ranked 1-8 in each div -
6-game schedule, A1458 v B2367, and in each group (A or B), 'best & worst v mid 2' (i.e. A18 v A45 & B27 v B36).
For 5 games, A1458 v B2367, and in each group teams 'with a seeding difference of 4', play the extra game (i.e. A1vA5, A4vA8, B2vB6 & B3vB7).
For 4 games, it's just A1458 v B2367.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2940 - 20/12/2024 15:32:10
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Replying To omahant: "As you stated, I also don't think 'decoupling' Prov SFCs would get approved (e.g. Ulster says NO! in particular). My AILC neither fully couples nor decouples - with no Sam guarantee, Prov match pts are kind of a halfway house.
The 'alternating week' schedule though is a good one.
Given a total playing calendar of about 40 weeks (say, start-Feb to mid-Nov) - I suppose to be objectively fair - the inter-county and club should allocate evenly - each get 20 weeks, maybe split into 4 windows. That would require a smaller inter-county footprint - maybe with league reduced to 4-6 games.
As the league with its '4 divs of 8' is so popular - it could be left in place - a Swiss System could reduce the schedule from 7 games.
Say, for scheduling only - teams are ranked 1-8 in each div -
6-game schedule, A1458 v B2367, and in each group (A or B), 'best & worst v mid 2' (i.e. A18 v A45 & B27 v B36).
For 5 games, A1458 v B2367, and in each group teams 'with a seeding difference of 4', play the extra game (i.e. A1vA5, A4vA8, B2vB6 & B3vB7).
For 4 games, it's just A1458 v B2367." If the league was complete in 7 weeks: 123, break, 4, 5 and finals - the provincial championships could be played over 7 weeks and the double elimination championship over 11 weeks. A team would always have at least 1 weekend off after each championship match.
Regards your Swiss System for league. Just have 4 seeded groups. All teams to play 1 team from each seeded group. After 4 rounds:
Top 4 into semi-finals.
Bottom 4 into relegation semi-finals.
Only division winners promoted. Relegation final losers relegated.
Job done. NFL complete after 6 rounds. No fuss! ;-)
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8385 - 20/12/2024 20:45:05
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In 2024 the football season had 27 matchdays [Weekends] from the start of the N.L to the A.I.C Final. Now the N.L took up 10 of those 27 matchdays Including 2 rest matchdays . That is 38% of the football calendar. Does that not seem overly obsessive for a competition that is the secondary competition?
edu (Mayo) - Posts: 67 - 20/12/2024 22:12:33
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@legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8382 - 20/12/2024 20:45:05
Re: your "4 seeded groups" = (1,2) (3,4) (5,6) (7,8)
You want to draw one from each pair, like today's Conference League Draw, to set up pairings.
My A1458 v B2367 is just one 'fixed' outcome of that.
I suppose there is some suspense to holding a draw - whether it's needed or not.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2940 - 21/12/2024 00:40:29
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Replying To edu: "In 2024 the football season had 27 matchdays [Weekends from the start of the N.L to the A.I.C Final. Now the N.L took up 10 of those 27 matchdays Including 2 rest matchdays . That is 38% of the football calendar. Does that not seem overly obsessive for a competition that is the secondary competition?"]Objectively, do you think it should be an inter-county/club 20/20 split, over a 40-week season?
Those 20 would then not have the luxury of a stand alone secondary competition.
My AILC tries to tick a lot of boxes - Prov Championships as a subset to the League competition, in turn, as a subset of the AI Championship.
"Subsetting" controls game count, while keeping all competitions - i.e. like having our cake and eating it too.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2940 - 21/12/2024 00:48:03
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25 teams miss out on provincial finals. 1 of these are most likely to include the Tailteann winner. It only takes two qualifying rounds for 24 teams to qualify for 7 vacant spots. Two rounds of qualifiers can use league seeding. 20 counties in Q1, after 4 given a bye based on league ranking. Seeded draw of top 10 v unseeded 10. 14 then in Q2. Seeded draw of top 7 v unseeded 7.
(This can be altered when Tailteann winner qualifies for their provincial final. 18 in Q1. 9 Q1winners and 7 byes in Q2.)
UEFA have Champions League, Europa League and Conference League. GAA have All Ireland Championship and Tailteann Cup. A Third Tier could be added.
The Tailteann Cup could consist of Third Tier winner and Q2 losers. The Third Tier can consist of Q1 losers. The Third Tier winner can be guaranteed at least at Q2 spot in the following year, so that they qualify for the Tailteann at the very least.
(For at least 8 teams to contest the Tailteann Cup, some times the highest ranked Q1 loser might also be included. Two scenarios:
a) When the Tailteann winner misses out on a provincial final, 14 teams including the Third Tier winner would contest Q2. The highest ranked Q1 loser would have to join the 7 Q2 losers for 8 to contest the Tailteann.
b) When the Tailteann winner makes a provincial final, 16 teams including the Third Tier winner would contest Q2. 8 losers would go on to the Tailteann.)
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8385 - 21/12/2024 08:44:32
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Replying To edu: "In 2024 the football season had 27 matchdays [Weekends from the start of the N.L to the A.I.C Final. Now the N.L took up 10 of those 27 matchdays Including 2 rest matchdays . That is 38% of the football calendar. Does that not seem overly obsessive for a competition that is the secondary competition?"]Yeah it's too much and it reduces the flexibility to have a better All Ireland.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4343 - 21/12/2024 10:32:39
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Yeah it's too much and it reduces the flexibility to have a better All Ireland.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4343 - 21/12/2024 10:32:39
Yeah, keep 'em as a 'subset' and have a better All Ireland (AILC) - am I a broken record?
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2940 - 21/12/2024 15:44:17
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