We all know how much Ireland loves to splash the cash on expensive stadiums! Hundreds of millions for both Croker and The Aviva.

More recently 70M for the new Cork Stadium. Probably best to describe it as a 70M upgrade, as the 2 terraces are staying, one of the stands is getting a new roof but the major change is a 2 tiered stand with premium seats wedged in between. Capacity increase from 32k to 45k, Value for money you might say?

Well I don't think so to say the least. Did a little research for similar sized stadiums being build. You'll find a few 60K seaters being build in the middle east for ridiculous money, by people with more than they can spend. But I found one being built by a club with limited funds and co-incidentally a 45k all seater.

Timsah Arena in Turkey built by a club called Bursaspor and 30M of the 70M cost is coming from it's government. Sounds identical to the Rebels deal down in Cork. Only one slight difference. There stadium is turning out to be an all seater stadium of world class standard. For the same money we get a similar capacity but with much of it being terraced and only 1 real modern side of the 4.

Here is a picture of the design for the outside when it will be finished next year.
Click here to see a picture of the final design from the outside

And here are the latest images from the interior and exterior. Construction nearing completion.
Image 1
Image 2
Image 3
Image 4
Image 5
Image 6

All that built from scratch for the same price its costing to effectively build 1 modern side to the new Pairc UI Chaoimh.

The new Casement in Belfast will be a 38k all seater and it's costing €100 Million. At least it's 4 sides will be of world class standard but you can't deny we spend so much money compared to what other modern countries can spend. In the case pointed out above their end product is a lot better than ours. Shame.

Jack_Goff (Meath) - Posts: 2920 - 07/12/2014 13:31:39    1677189

Jack_Goff
County: Meath
Posts: 1346

1677189
We all know how much Ireland loves to splash the cash on expensive stadiums! Hundreds of millions for both Croker and The Aviva.

More recently 70M for the new Cork Stadium. Probably best to describe it as a 70M upgrade, as the 2 terraces are staying, one of the stands is getting a new roof but the major change is a 2 tiered stand with premium seats wedged in between. Capacity increase from 32k to 45k, Value for money you might say?

Incorrect, capacity increase from 42,000 to 45,000.

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3846 - 07/12/2014 16:03:18    1677217

Donegal man, what was the capacity for the munster final this year? It was 36k and that's all they were allowed. It was brought down to 32k but they did some worked and it was raised back to 36k. But yeah we spend 70M and only 1 side gets any major change, they spend the same money and get a world class all seater 45k stadium.

Jack_Goff (Meath) - Posts: 2920 - 07/12/2014 19:36:50    1677253

Sorry JAck you are right. I didnt account for the drop in capacity this year, i didnt realize it had shrunk so much in the past couple of years.
Still remains a puzzle why there is so much money being thrown at a stadium that will only be filled once a year max.

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3846 - 07/12/2014 20:08:08    1677266

Jack_Goff
County: Meath
Posts: 1350

1677189 All that built from scratch for the same price its costing to effectively build 1 modern side to the new Pairc UI Chaoimh.


You should be able to build a basic 40,000 capacity Stadium for 40 million, when you already own the land. That's all seater with suitable toilet and refreshment facilities. I don't know whether costs spiral with more Intricate Stadia design or with the Inclusion of large corporate facilities.

Looking ahead If we were to upgrade all County Grounds ( Not Including Rugby World cup Stadiums ), I think a stripped back upgrade would suffice. We already have an ambundance of grounds, however the toilets/concession area's are poor in all of them.

GaryMc82 (Derry) - Posts: 3026 - 07/12/2014 21:09:56    1677285

In turkey outside of Ankara and Istanbul construction wages are typically less that 2euro an hour.
If you can man a building site in Ireland for that money maybe it might work.

ruanua (Donegal) - Posts: 4966 - 08/12/2014 10:45:04    1677320

Some years it could be filled quite a few years and the year of the Rugby EC it could get filled 5 or 6 times from that alone.

There are other non GAA cases. Munster could switch a cup semi final to the venue and every year they will likely try and have at least 1 gig in it. That alone could fill it 2 or 3 times depending on the act.

Munster football final every 2 years wouldn't fill it but get a crowd of 25k on average. The seating areas cost the most to construct and that would fill up all the seats. All ireland football and hurling quarter finals. munster hurling finals, and a home semi for cork would bring a fairly big crowd. Other matches would be a league final.

It's not going to pay for itself the way croker could but it will get more use then people think.

Jack_Goff (Meath) - Posts: 2920 - 08/12/2014 11:25:03    1677330

i have been to turkey
its filled with half built unfinished buildings
so i wouldnt bank on this stadium ever being finished either.
big differance in cost in ireland to turkey
land,materials, workers all are more expensive in ireland than turkey so not a fair comparison

hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 08/12/2014 14:09:15    1677375

Jack_Goff
County: Meath
Posts: 1356

1677330
Some years it could be filled quite a few years and the year of the Rugby EC it could get filled 5 or 6 times from that alone.

There are other non GAA cases. Munster could switch a cup semi final to the venue and every year they will likely try and have at least 1 gig in it. That alone could fill it 2 or 3 times depending on the act.

Munster football final every 2 years wouldn't fill it but get a crowd of 25k on average. The seating areas cost the most to construct and that would fill up all the seats. All ireland football and hurling quarter finals. munster hurling finals, and a home semi for cork would bring a fairly big crowd. Other matches would be a league final.

It's not going to pay for itself the way croker could but it will get more use then people think.


Would a meath supporter be happy travelling to cork for an all ireland semi final v cork? I wouldnt want to play cork or kerry for that mater in munster. Unless Dublin were happy to play cork in a semi final there it would be a good idea, but there would be an issue about the capacity of croke park v the capacity of pairc ui caoimh. Would only make sense if it were a replayed game.

The only way that this stadium will get any use is if munster rugby uses it. People might include rock concerts in the arguement, but the reality is that a stadium is not necessary for these events, ie slane.

The bottom line is that this stadium was fast tracked for development based on an idea of potential use rather than the practical reality based on the form book.

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3846 - 08/12/2014 14:42:41    1677389

hill16man they have their 30M government grant in the bank long ago and the stadium is 90% complete. Don't worry this won't join the list of half built buildings you've seen. Good point on the labor costs though. We should invite the turks that built this over to ireland and build stadiums for us instead.

Jack_Goff (Meath) - Posts: 2920 - 10/12/2014 20:52:12    1677917

Donegalman

Would a meath supporter be happy travelling to cork for an all ireland semi final v cork? I wouldnt want to play cork or kerry for that mater in munster. Unless Dublin were happy to play cork in a semi final there it would be a good idea, but there would be an issue about the capacity of croke park v the capacity of pairc ui caoimh. Would only make sense if it were a replayed game.

The only way that this stadium will get any use is if munster rugby uses it. People might include rock concerts in the arguement, but the reality is that a stadium is not necessary for these events, ie slane.

The bottom line is that this stadium was fast tracked for development based on an idea of potential use rather than the practical reality based on the form book.is that this stadium was fast tracked for development based on an idea of potential use rather than the practical reality based on the form book.

What's the difference between Meath going to cork to play an AI QF and Donegal going to Dublin to play a QF?
And that's not even what I meant. obviously not all QF's but the ones that make sense. So in 2011 we had Limerick v Kerry in Croker in front of less than 10k people from those counties. If that was played in Cork for example it would get a much higher attendance. Cork and Kerry could keep their home and away agreements going for AI QF's and Semi's. I think the two played in a semi final in croker a few years ago and around 30k from both counties turned up. If that was played in Cork or Killarney you'd sell either stadium out.

And you can forget about Munster Rugby. You are under the illusion that they are bigger than they are. They struggle to sell out Thomand 90% of the time. Why would they rent out a GAA ground too be for them for their matches.

The concerts is a legit claim and SLane has nothing to do with it at all. Did Bruce play in Slane last year? Npt he spread himself around. Croke Park gets loads of gigs despite slane and PUC go very well get 1 or 2 lucrative concerts per year.

Jack_Goff (Meath) - Posts: 2920 - 10/12/2014 20:59:16    1677921

All Ireland quarterfinals have to be played in Croke Park. Its part of the 10 year ticket premium level tickets.

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1316 - 11/12/2014 11:21:07    1677983

Jack_Goff
County: Meath
Posts: 1361


What's the difference between Meath going to cork to play an AI QF and Donegal going to Dublin to play a QF?

Im thinking a lot of Meath folk would have a big issue with this, there would be utterly no point in travelling to Cork instead of Dublin for a fixture just to say that Cork has a good stadium.

And that's not even what I meant. obviously not all QF's but the ones that make sense. So in 2011 we had Limerick v Kerry in Croker in front of less than 10k people from those counties. If that was played in Cork for example it would get a much higher attendance.

Not likely, based on how poorly kerry and limerick travel to support their team.

Cork and Kerry could keep their home and away agreements going for AI QF's and Semi's. I think the two played in a semi final in croker a few years ago and around 30k from both counties turned up. If that was played in Cork or Killarney you'd sell either stadium out.


Maybe, but it wouldnt get any more than Croke park already get for the same fixture, less if anything, meaning that the stadium would be a waste of money for this reason.

And you can forget about Munster Rugby. You are under the illusion that they are bigger than they are. They struggle to sell out Thomand 90% of the time. Why would they rent out a GAA ground too be for them for their matches.

I was talking about Galway rather than Munster rugby, they have their own stadium in limerick.

The concerts is a legit claim and SLane has nothing to do with it at all Did Bruce play in Slane last year? Npt he spread himself around. Croke Park gets loads of gigs despite slane and PUC go very well get 1 or 2 lucrative concerts per year.

Slane has a lot to do with it when making the point that a field can accommodate a massive rock concert and the very biggest names without the need to redevelop it to the cost of the taxpayer. Bruce Springsteen didnt play in Slane, but he chose Cork instead, he chose the old PUC meaning that there is nothing wrong with it at the moment in terms of attracting big names. Why throw money at it if this is the case?

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3846 - 11/12/2014 11:29:20    1677987

Jack_Goff
County: Meath
Posts: 1361

1677917
hill16man they have their 30M government grant in the bank long ago and the stadium is 90% complete. Don't worry this won't join the list of half built buildings you've seen. Good point on the labor costs though. We should invite the turks that built this over to ireland and build stadiums for us instead.

now your talking haha
we need new houses built in ireland as it is so we will need an influx of builders haha

hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 11/12/2014 12:54:49    1678021

Unless the GAA drive forward and upgrade and modernize stadia they will be left behind fact......This is a ridicolous argument. The GAA are masters of economical activity and i'm sure the re-development of PUC won't be any different. How are you going to attract the population towards the GAA with outdated stadia like the old PUC. If anything it would be great for their profile if they had a few more around the country.

Cornerback1977 (Cork) - Posts: 67 - 11/12/2014 13:54:01    1678046

I work in the engineering / construction industry. I have worked in the Middle East for a Turkish company, incidentally and now work in Ireland for a UK company.

Some of the points below might be already raised but some reasons this is not a like-for-like build are:
- the "downtakings" associated with an existing building (the stadium) have a cost associated with them which is not the case with a green-field site
- planning costs in Ireland are significantly higher than in Turkey
- Wages in Ireland are significantly higher than in Turkey (given that the successful contractors will have to demonstrate previous stadium building experience, it probably narrows it down to a handful of options, all of who will charge about €18/hour for a technician/labourer.)
- the proximity of the river to the stadium will increase costs
- the Irish Building Regulations are significantly tighter than those of Turkey and new BCAR laws came into force in 2014 - an additional ~5% on the cost of the project (these basically require the builder and designer to sign off and stand over the construction for 10 years).

I would have reservations as to just how "World Class" Bursaspor's stadium will be. . .don't get me started on Qatar's!

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5244 - 11/12/2014 14:26:10    1678051

Cornerback1977
County: Cork
Posts: 9

1678046
Unless the GAA drive forward and upgrade and modernize stadia they will be left behind fact......This is a ridicolous argument. The GAA are masters of economical activity and i'm sure the re-development of PUC won't be any different. How are you going to attract the population towards the GAA with outdated stadia like the old PUC. If anything it would be great for their profile if they had a few more around the country.

If we had the resources it would be great to develop. But we dont, and we not be better off putting 70 million into facilities and projects that are going to be regularly and properly used? Refer to attendances in PUC over the past 10 years. People arent staying away from the stadium because it is not up to scratch, people are staying away from the stadium because they are playing favorites with fixtures to attend, saving money for later in the championship and the like. If that is the case, then redeveloping the stadium wont change this mentality. There might be a honeymoon period of one season, where fans want to see the new building, but that will be the height of it.

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3846 - 11/12/2014 14:48:05    1678057

Cavthenman47: The proximity of the river to the stadium will increase costs".
Is that due to the need for flood barriers? I haven't been in Pairc U Chaoimh in some time so I can't place its location in relation to the river.

lilywhite1 (Kildare) - Posts: 3024 - 11/12/2014 15:28:10    1678064

lilywhite


no, it is due to ease of access to the site (or lack of) during construction.

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5244 - 11/12/2014 18:48:52    1678100

Heard they are trying to get Riverdance to play in the new grounds in Cork at least 3 times a year, it's the only way they will get 45000 people into the grounds

riverboys (Mayo) - Posts: 1389 - 11/12/2014 18:57:35    1678102