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Replying To Pope_Benedict: " Replying To tirawleybaron: "That wont solve the league problem - namely it is seen to be a hinderance to progress in the All Ireland race
The league needs to be restructured so that teams have to take it seriously to get the game time they want.
Putting an extra week after the final before the first round of the championship wont make it any more desirable to do well in.
The solution is something like the structure used in the Hurling league up to 2024
6+6, 6+6 and 8 in the bottom division
5 games - top 1 into league semi, 2&3 into q finals, 4 gets no extra games, 5&6 go to relegation play off
Div 1A -Mayo, Donegal, Dublin, Roscommon, Tyrone, Cavan
Div 1B - Kerry, Galway, Armagh, Monaghan, Derry, Meath
Div 2A - Cork, Offaly, Down, Fermanagh, Sligo, Limerick
Div 2B - Louth, Kildare, Westmeath, Clare, Laois, Wexford
Div 3 - Leitrim, Antrim, Wicklow, Carlow, Tipperary, Longford, London, Waterford
Performance in the league the above would seed a three tier All Ireland. I would give the winners of the lower tier a guaranteed 2 years in the higher tier as a reward for winning a cup.
Sam Maguire - 12 teams (must contain provincial winners + tailteann winners from previous 2 years + div 2 winner)
Mayo, Donegal, Dublin, Roscommon, Tyrone, Kerry, Galway, Armagh, Monaghan, Meath, Down, Cork
4 groups of 3, Prov Champions seeded 1, best 4 from league seeded 2, rest seeded 3.
Rd 1: seed 2 home v 3, Rd 2: seed 1 home v 2, Rd3: seed 3 home v 1
Tailteann Cup - 12 teams (must contain provincial finalists (not in sam) and div 4 winners + lower tier winners)
Cavan, Derry, Louth, Offaly, Kildare, Fermanagh, Sligo, Limerick, Westmeath, Clare, Antrim, Wicklow
Tommy Murphy Cup - 8 teams
Wexford, Laois, Leitrim, Carlow, Tipperary, Longford, London, Waterford
Have a seven week gap between league finals and All Ireland championships
With the system above, threading water in the league will result in a long lay off and/or relegation from Sam/Tailteann" Good ideas. 'Patrons' will note that Mayo are the first team listed in 1A and the Sam Maguire competition."
Kerry were second - hence they top the other group
tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1278 - 25/03/2025 13:04:43
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@tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1271 - 25/03/2025
Further League integration for AIC qualification seems like a good way to make the former really valuable - accumulation of needed match pts from League and Prov SFCs would be a real motivator (Aussie AFL and URC are only two of many examples of this tried and tested method).
omahant (USA) - Posts: 3150 - 25/03/2025 14:56:44
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Why reformat the league when all that is being asked for is a week off after league finals? Adopting league seeding for balanced provincial draws is a minimal change within the current structure. A small change that can bring balance and fairness to the much maligned provincial championships!
* Top 4 in Leinster and Ulster seeded in quarter final draws for provinces with more than 8 teams. Top 2 in Munster and Connacht seeded in semi final draws for provinces with less than 8 teams.
* 8 and 9 paired in Ulster preliminary round. 6 to 8 drawn against 9 to 11 in Leinster preliminary round. 3 and 4 drawn against 5 and 6 in Munster quarter finals.
* Connacht rotation of counties travelling to London and New York can be kept. The highest ranked of the other 3 counties can get a bye to the semi final, with the other 2 being paired in the remaining quarter final. 1 and 2 can still be kept in the semi final draw though one or both of them might be travelling overseas in the quarter finals.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8623 - 25/03/2025 15:59:53
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Replying To legendzxix: "Why reformat the league when all that is being asked for is a week off after league finals? Adopting league seeding for balanced provincial draws is a minimal change within the current structure. A small change that can bring balance and fairness to the much maligned provincial championships!
* Top 4 in Leinster and Ulster seeded in quarter final draws for provinces with more than 8 teams. Top 2 in Munster and Connacht seeded in semi final draws for provinces with less than 8 teams.
* 8 and 9 paired in Ulster preliminary round. 6 to 8 drawn against 9 to 11 in Leinster preliminary round. 3 and 4 drawn against 5 and 6 in Munster quarter finals.
* Connacht rotation of counties travelling to London and New York can be kept. The highest ranked of the other 3 counties can get a bye to the semi final, with the other 2 being paired in the remaining quarter final. 1 and 2 can still be kept in the semi final draw though one or both of them might be travelling overseas in the quarter finals." I think because the issues go beyond just finding an extra week of rest.
The top teams don't play one another in meaningful games on a regular enough basis.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4435 - 25/03/2025 18:25:34
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Replying To Whammo86: "I think because the issues go beyond just finding an extra week of rest.
The top teams don't play one another in meaningful games on a regular enough basis." You've been saying this for "years" - makes sense - is it that nobody is listening, or choose not to?
Those marquee matchups could be had within a variety of format options - it's just a matter of choosing - now for the hard part, "after convincing" the various stakeholders.
There's just too much fragmentation as to the best approach forward - AIC 2026 is the best we can manage to date.
Should, or would, Jim Gavin take the reins of a structural FRC next? Only someone with his pull can get us anywhere.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 3150 - 26/03/2025 02:32:39
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Replying To Whammo86: "I think because the issues go beyond just finding an extra week of rest.
The top teams don't play one another in meaningful games on a regular enough basis." The Super 8s of 2018 and 2019 is the closest you'll get to that. The Champions League and Champions Cup could have similar complaints.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8623 - 26/03/2025 08:22:35
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Replying To legendzxix: "The Super 8s of 2018 and 2019 is the closest you'll get to that. The Champions League and Champions Cup could have similar complaints." It was designed for that but there are clearly better implementations possible than that.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4435 - 26/03/2025 11:13:10
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Replying To Whammo86: "It was designed for that but there are clearly better implementations possible than that." I'd be leaning towards giving the new format a chance. The vast majority want to see the best 8 of 32 or 33 competing on All Ireland quarter final weekend, which is a massive weekend.
It was hard for Derry supporters to get on a bandwagon last year after losing 3 games. The new format at least has 3 strikes and Derry are out!
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8623 - 26/03/2025 12:12:27
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Replying To legendzxix: "Why reformat the league when all that is being asked for is a week off after league finals? Adopting league seeding for balanced provincial draws is a minimal change within the current structure. A small change that can bring balance and fairness to the much maligned provincial championships!
* Top 4 in Leinster and Ulster seeded in quarter final draws for provinces with more than 8 teams. Top 2 in Munster and Connacht seeded in semi final draws for provinces with less than 8 teams.
* 8 and 9 paired in Ulster preliminary round. 6 to 8 drawn against 9 to 11 in Leinster preliminary round. 3 and 4 drawn against 5 and 6 in Munster quarter finals.
* Connacht rotation of counties travelling to London and New York can be kept. The highest ranked of the other 3 counties can get a bye to the semi final, with the other 2 being paired in the remaining quarter final. 1 and 2 can still be kept in the semi final draw though one or both of them might be travelling overseas in the quarter finals." The league actually needs reformatting to give teams a chance to progress.
Div 1 has basically been Mayo, Kerry, Dublin, Tyrone, Donegal and Monaghan for the past 15 years, with Armagh and Galway joining over the past 5.
You essentially have 10 teams in the running for div 1 (the above plus Roscommon and Derry) and the rest not getting exposed to top class opposition until all Ireland stage.
This is not the premier league - we shouldnt be trying to keep an elite division with the rest left behind. The league should expose as many teams as possible to a higher standard so they can be ready to compete in the championship.
All of your posts and suggestions are always focused on Keeping div 1 as is (because Kerry will always be in it) and seeing the Munster championship - so Kerry have as easy a path to the All Ireland series as possible. Your also a big man for the provincial winners getting extra rewards (via seedings or byes).
The current system is set up for Kerry and Dublin to get the easiest draw possible so they can be guaranteed and all Ireland semi final every year.
In the 11 years before 1997 (the old league of 4 divisions of 4 with playoffs between top 4 in 1 and winners of all other divisions) - there were seven different winners Laois, Dublin, Meath, Cork, Derry, Donegal, Kerry - with another 6 playing in finals - Down, Kildare, Tyrone, Donegal, Monaghan and Armagh
Once the leagues switched to Div 1(A&B) and Div 2 (A&B) - there were 8 different winners in 10 years - Offaly, Cork, Derry, Mayo, Tyrone, Armagh, Kerry, Donegal - with another 6 - Galway, Wexford, Laois, Cavan, Dublin and Meath also playing in finals.
In the 17 years since (under the current system) - only 5 counties have won it - Derry, Kerry, Mayo, Dublin and Cork with just 2 others getting to finals - Tyrone, Galway
While the like of Laois, Derry, Kildare, Monaghan, Wexford, and Offaly havent seen an all Ireland final (derry got to 1) between 86 and 2007, they at least got to league finals.
The old league formats gave lower ranked teams a chance to build and catch a top team who weren't at it - the current system is either Div 1 or burst and no hope of development because you generally get relegated fairly quickly again and don't get to build a team over 4-5 years against higher level opposition.
To survive in Div 1 at present you need to put a lot into to stay up and do well at the expense of championship success. Expanding it to 12 teams, gives the likes of Monaghan, Derry and Roscommon a bit more breathing room as well as giving more hope of getting into it for the likes of Meath, Cork, Kildare and Cavan.
The GAA is supposed to be about participation for all, not creating an elite and pulling up the draw bridge behind them.
tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1278 - 26/03/2025 12:53:19
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Replying To tirawleybaron: "The league actually needs reformatting to give teams a chance to progress.
Div 1 has basically been Mayo, Kerry, Dublin, Tyrone, Donegal and Monaghan for the past 15 years, with Armagh and Galway joining over the past 5.
You essentially have 10 teams in the running for div 1 (the above plus Roscommon and Derry) and the rest not getting exposed to top class opposition until all Ireland stage.
This is not the premier league - we shouldnt be trying to keep an elite division with the rest left behind. The league should expose as many teams as possible to a higher standard so they can be ready to compete in the championship.
All of your posts and suggestions are always focused on Keeping div 1 as is (because Kerry will always be in it) and seeing the Munster championship - so Kerry have as easy a path to the All Ireland series as possible. Your also a big man for the provincial winners getting extra rewards (via seedings or byes).
The current system is set up for Kerry and Dublin to get the easiest draw possible so they can be guaranteed and all Ireland semi final every year.
In the 11 years before 1997 (the old league of 4 divisions of 4 with playoffs between top 4 in 1 and winners of all other divisions) - there were seven different winners Laois, Dublin, Meath, Cork, Derry, Donegal, Kerry - with another 6 playing in finals - Down, Kildare, Tyrone, Donegal, Monaghan and Armagh
Once the leagues switched to Div 1(A&B) and Div 2 (A&B) - there were 8 different winners in 10 years - Offaly, Cork, Derry, Mayo, Tyrone, Armagh, Kerry, Donegal - with another 6 - Galway, Wexford, Laois, Cavan, Dublin and Meath also playing in finals.
In the 17 years since (under the current system) - only 5 counties have won it - Derry, Kerry, Mayo, Dublin and Cork with just 2 others getting to finals - Tyrone, Galway
While the like of Laois, Derry, Kildare, Monaghan, Wexford, and Offaly havent seen an all Ireland final (derry got to 1) between 86 and 2007, they at least got to league finals.
The old league formats gave lower ranked teams a chance to build and catch a top team who weren't at it - the current system is either Div 1 or burst and no hope of development because you generally get relegated fairly quickly again and don't get to build a team over 4-5 years against higher level opposition.
To survive in Div 1 at present you need to put a lot into to stay up and do well at the expense of championship success. Expanding it to 12 teams, gives the likes of Monaghan, Derry and Roscommon a bit more breathing room as well as giving more hope of getting into it for the likes of Meath, Cork, Kildare and Cavan.
The GAA is supposed to be about participation for all, not creating an elite and pulling up the draw bridge behind them." The last two All Ireland winners have come from Division 2!! Are the top half of Division 3 then being unfairly excluded from the All Ireland?
I've written before in favour of a 20:12 split. 4 groups of 5 teams in the All Ireland. 2 home games and 2 away games each. 3 teams advancing from 5 teams groups would be acceptable. This would have to go in tandem with reducing the league to 6 rounds overall.
Alas, I don't see this being on the agenda anytime soon unless Division 2 and Division 3 counties make a big push for it.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8623 - 26/03/2025 13:14:34
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Replying To tirawleybaron: "The league actually needs reformatting to give teams a chance to progress.
Div 1 has basically been Mayo, Kerry, Dublin, Tyrone, Donegal and Monaghan for the past 15 years, with Armagh and Galway joining over the past 5.
You essentially have 10 teams in the running for div 1 (the above plus Roscommon and Derry) and the rest not getting exposed to top class opposition until all Ireland stage.
This is not the premier league - we shouldnt be trying to keep an elite division with the rest left behind. The league should expose as many teams as possible to a higher standard so they can be ready to compete in the championship.
All of your posts and suggestions are always focused on Keeping div 1 as is (because Kerry will always be in it) and seeing the Munster championship - so Kerry have as easy a path to the All Ireland series as possible. Your also a big man for the provincial winners getting extra rewards (via seedings or byes).
The current system is set up for Kerry and Dublin to get the easiest draw possible so they can be guaranteed and all Ireland semi final every year.
In the 11 years before 1997 (the old league of 4 divisions of 4 with playoffs between top 4 in 1 and winners of all other divisions) - there were seven different winners Laois, Dublin, Meath, Cork, Derry, Donegal, Kerry - with another 6 playing in finals - Down, Kildare, Tyrone, Donegal, Monaghan and Armagh
Once the leagues switched to Div 1(A&B) and Div 2 (A&B) - there were 8 different winners in 10 years - Offaly, Cork, Derry, Mayo, Tyrone, Armagh, Kerry, Donegal - with another 6 - Galway, Wexford, Laois, Cavan, Dublin and Meath also playing in finals.
In the 17 years since (under the current system) - only 5 counties have won it - Derry, Kerry, Mayo, Dublin and Cork with just 2 others getting to finals - Tyrone, Galway
While the like of Laois, Derry, Kildare, Monaghan, Wexford, and Offaly havent seen an all Ireland final (derry got to 1) between 86 and 2007, they at least got to league finals.
The old league formats gave lower ranked teams a chance to build and catch a top team who weren't at it - the current system is either Div 1 or burst and no hope of development because you generally get relegated fairly quickly again and don't get to build a team over 4-5 years against higher level opposition.
To survive in Div 1 at present you need to put a lot into to stay up and do well at the expense of championship success. Expanding it to 12 teams, gives the likes of Monaghan, Derry and Roscommon a bit more breathing room as well as giving more hope of getting into it for the likes of Meath, Cork, Kildare and Cavan.
The GAA is supposed to be about participation for all, not creating an elite and pulling up the draw bridge behind them." The format would be brilliant for championship and I think would be useful for giving more teams access to more regular quality fixtures.
The format didn't work so well as a secondary competition because there was a lack of jeopardy, retaining top tier status wasn't particularly onerous.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4435 - 26/03/2025 14:03:04
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Replying To Whammo86: "The format would be brilliant for championship and I think would be useful for giving more teams access to more regular quality fixtures.
The format didn't work so well as a secondary competition because there was a lack of jeopardy, retaining top tier status wasn't particularly onerous." The football version could have jeopardy if it was beneficial.
Division 1 in 2 groups of 6.
- group winners direct to final.
- 5th placed teams into relegation final.
- 6th placed teams in both groups relegated.
Division 2 in 2 groups of 5.
- group winners direct to final and both promoted.
- 2nd placed teams into promotion final.
- 4th placed teams into relegation final.
- 5th placed teams in both groups relegated.
Division 3 in 2 groups of 5.
- group winners direct to final and both promoted.
- 2nd placed teams into promotion final.
The above would require 6 rounds, possibly allowing 4 groups of 5 in the All Ireland championship to be a strong option as well.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8623 - 26/03/2025 14:57:39
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@tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1278 - 26/03/2025
Excellent post !
My AILC is my best shot at addressing points made -
two-tier league of 16 each, with automatic 2 up/2 down and opportunity for up to 2 more (variable 2-4 up/down), leading to three-tier AIC.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 3150 - 26/03/2025 15:29:33
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Replying To legendzxix: "The football version could have jeopardy if it was beneficial.
Division 1 in 2 groups of 6.
- group winners direct to final.
- 5th placed teams into relegation final.
- 6th placed teams in both groups relegated.
Division 2 in 2 groups of 5.
- group winners direct to final and both promoted.
- 2nd placed teams into promotion final.
- 4th placed teams into relegation final.
- 5th placed teams in both groups relegated.
Division 3 in 2 groups of 5.
- group winners direct to final and both promoted.
- 2nd placed teams into promotion final.
The above would require 6 rounds, possibly allowing 4 groups of 5 in the All Ireland championship to be a strong option as well." I like it - plenty of jeopardy with your 3 up/3 down.
Maybe use your league (with more games) as championship with the 'pre-1997' element?
12-team AIC (Div 1 top 4 byes) =
Div 1 top 8 + Div 2/3 group winners?
omahant (USA) - Posts: 3150 - 26/03/2025 15:42:27
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While I mused over a 12:10:10 league based on someone's suggestion, it is a funny one for people to be looking to reformat the league when players wanted it to be more integrated with championship and also the last two All Ireland winners had been in Division 2. Division 1 football is no guarantee of All Ireland success. Division 2 has arguably been the more impressive Division.
8 counties have a fair opportunity of success this weekend in Croke Park. All four divisions were mainly competitive. Sometimes people are looking to crack a nut with a sledge hammer! The main sticky point is a week off after the league finals. 8 rounds, including finals, are completed over 10 weekends. Ideally there would be a weekend off after playing two consecutive weekends. These are still amateur players at the end of the day. The GPA are quiet enough on that topic, maybe players are ok with the frequency of games?
For years there were complaints about the games to training ratio. Managers are now turning the argument the other way!
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8623 - 26/03/2025 18:44:09
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