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Replying To Whammo86: "Honestly I think it isn't just about Provincial or local rivalries. I think the excitement is from good games being played." Group 1: Donegal, Mayo, Tyrone, Cork.
Group 2: Kerry, Dublin, Roscommon, Meath.
Group 3: Louth, Monaghan, Cavan, Clare.
Group 4: Galway, Armagh, Derry, Down.
In the current setup, if provincial runners up were seeded based on league, the groups might be more balanced.
All you'd want then is top 2 only going through and the round 1 winners playing each other in round 2.
Provincial runners up could still be in different groups and the 8 finalists given 2 home games as some incentive for making provincial finalists.
Again I'm not in favour of rewarding runners up but it doesn't seem up for discussion.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8836 - 13/05/2025 18:08:59
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Whammo will accuse me of discrimination against Division 4 but an All Ireland playoff would add jeopardy to All Ireland qualification.
ALL IRELAND PRELIMINARY PLAYOFF
Limerick v Wexford
ALL IRELAND PLAYOFFS
Monaghan v Offaly
Roscommon v Kildare
Tyrone v Westmeath
Derry v Fermanagh
Dublin v Sligo
Cavan v Laois
Cork v Limerick/Wexford
In the new format for 2026 the 8 playoff losers could enter Tailteann Round 3B. The two Tailteann Round 2A winners and the two Tailteann Round 3 winners could have home advantage in the Tailteann quarter finals against the four Tailteann Round 3B winners.
While lower league counties would miss out on the playoffs - the carrot of a home quarter final ahead of the Croke Park semi finals could be a typical GAA like compromise.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8836 - 20/05/2025 10:34:39
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We are very close to having a proper structure for the All Ireland but next years format doesn't cut it in my view
The below is a small tweak to what we have, that would get a lot more onboard (more spaces and guaranteed home match for all)
1. Seed based on league finish (thus making sure teams actually try to win Div 1)
2. Have 6 groups of 3
1st Seeds: (4 provincial winners, league winners and previous years SAM winners) seeded 1
2nd Seeds: best 6 from league not qualified as 1st seen
3rd Seeds: remainder
First round: 1st away v 3rd
Second round: 3rd away v 2nd
Third round: 1st home v 2nd
3. Top 6 go to Qfinals
4. 4 best 2nd place teams play off in prelim qfinals for last two spots
Using the above (lose 1 match and you are really up against it, while everyone will still get 1 home match in the round robin. Also, top 18 teams will get in and Tailteann winners will get 2 seasons to get up to speed.
If in place this year,
Meath and Down would be in from the tailteann cup and there would be 3 extra places from the league meaning Kildare, Offaly and Westmeath would also be in, making the Tailteann less of a formality (as one of those three will win this year).
Seed 1: Armagh, Kerry, Louth, Galway, Donegal, Mayo
Seed 2: Dublin, Roscommon, Monaghan, Tyrone, Derry, Meath
Seed 3; Cork, Cavan, Down, Clare, Offaly, Kildare (swap Westmeath for Clare if provincial loser guarantee is to be removed)
Group 1: Galway, Dublin, Down
Group 2: Mayo, Meath, Cavan
Group 3: Donegal, Tyrone, Kildare
Group 4: Kerry, Monaghan, Offaly
Group 5: Louth, Derry, Cork
Group 6: Armagh, Roscommon, Clare/Westmeath
In the Tailteann cup, a lot of counties would fancy their chances at winning it, and a prize of 2 years in Sam Maguire as a result.
tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1400 - 20/05/2025 15:13:57
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Replying To legendzxix: "Whammo will accuse me of discrimination against Division 4 but an All Ireland playoff would add jeopardy to All Ireland qualification.
ALL IRELAND PRELIMINARY PLAYOFF
Limerick v Wexford
ALL IRELAND PLAYOFFS
Monaghan v Offaly
Roscommon v Kildare
Tyrone v Westmeath
Derry v Fermanagh
Dublin v Sligo
Cavan v Laois
Cork v Limerick/Wexford
In the new format for 2026 the 8 playoff losers could enter Tailteann Round 3B. The two Tailteann Round 2A winners and the two Tailteann Round 3 winners could have home advantage in the Tailteann quarter finals against the four Tailteann Round 3B winners.
While lower league counties would miss out on the playoffs - the carrot of a home quarter final ahead of the Croke Park semi finals could be a typical GAA like compromise." I don't think that's the issue. I think your proposition reduces the incentive to do well in the Tailteann.
It hurts the flow of the season further.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4537 - 20/05/2025 18:13:02
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Replying To tirawleybaron: "We are very close to having a proper structure for the All Ireland but next years format doesn't cut it in my view
The below is a small tweak to what we have, that would get a lot more onboard (more spaces and guaranteed home match for all)
1. Seed based on league finish (thus making sure teams actually try to win Div 1)
2. Have 6 groups of 3
1st Seeds: (4 provincial winners, league winners and previous years SAM winners) seeded 1
2nd Seeds: best 6 from league not qualified as 1st seen
3rd Seeds: remainder
First round: 1st away v 3rd
Second round: 3rd away v 2nd
Third round: 1st home v 2nd
3. Top 6 go to Qfinals
4. 4 best 2nd place teams play off in prelim qfinals for last two spots
Using the above (lose 1 match and you are really up against it, while everyone will still get 1 home match in the round robin. Also, top 18 teams will get in and Tailteann winners will get 2 seasons to get up to speed.
If in place this year,
Meath and Down would be in from the tailteann cup and there would be 3 extra places from the league meaning Kildare, Offaly and Westmeath would also be in, making the Tailteann less of a formality (as one of those three will win this year).
Seed 1: Armagh, Kerry, Louth, Galway, Donegal, Mayo
Seed 2: Dublin, Roscommon, Monaghan, Tyrone, Derry, Meath
Seed 3; Cork, Cavan, Down, Clare, Offaly, Kildare (swap Westmeath for Clare if provincial loser guarantee is to be removed)
Group 1: Galway, Dublin, Down
Group 2: Mayo, Meath, Cavan
Group 3: Donegal, Tyrone, Kildare
Group 4: Kerry, Monaghan, Offaly
Group 5: Louth, Derry, Cork
Group 6: Armagh, Roscommon, Clare/Westmeath
In the Tailteann cup, a lot of counties would fancy their chances at winning it, and a prize of 2 years in Sam Maguire as a result." I'd think you'd be better having there be relegation tied to the championship and not the league.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4537 - 20/05/2025 18:15:06
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Replying To Whammo86: "I'd think you'd be better having there be relegation tied to the championship and not the league." You can't tie relegation or relegation playoffs to the Championship because of the lopsided nature of All-Irelands/Provinces.
SurelyToGod (Donegal) - Posts: 453 - 21/05/2025 09:28:45
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Kerry v Mayo in the Gaelic Grounds in 2014 was electric. A format that brings something close to that intensity to provincial grounds would be great. Very little scope though when four quarter finals in Croke Park seems to be central to formats passing at Congress. The quarter finals bring crowds as well in fairness.
The All Ireland 16 has to be as strong as possible really for competitive games.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8836 - 21/05/2025 09:48:14
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Replying To SurelyToGod: "You can't tie relegation or relegation playoffs to the Championship because of the lopsided nature of All-Irelands/Provinces." You can and we should. At the moment Championship promotion and relegation is based off the league. The Tailteann cup winners are effectively a guest team in the championship.
Take Down this year - they're in the championship as Tailteann winners. Down have just recorded a big win in the All Ireland group stage; they have a couple of big games against Louth and Monaghan coming up - there was only a point in it in the games between them in the league this year. Down are going to be competitive and I expect them to be in the last 8. This will count for nothing next year as they're going to be in Division 3.
My solution - relegate the bottom 4 teams from each group to be replaced next year by teams in the following order:
1 - Tailteann winners
2 - Provincial winners (ranked by league position)
3 - Provincial runners up (ranked by league position - and ensure provincial championships seeded)
4 - Highest placed league finish
I can see an argument to remove the provincial runners up from the list - but I think balanced provincial representation is more important.
brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 445 - 21/05/2025 10:23:29
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Replying To brianb: "You can and we should. At the moment Championship promotion and relegation is based off the league. The Tailteann cup winners are effectively a guest team in the championship.
Take Down this year - they're in the championship as Tailteann winners. Down have just recorded a big win in the All Ireland group stage; they have a couple of big games against Louth and Monaghan coming up - there was only a point in it in the games between them in the league this year. Down are going to be competitive and I expect them to be in the last 8. This will count for nothing next year as they're going to be in Division 3.
My solution - relegate the bottom 4 teams from each group to be replaced next year by teams in the following order:
1 - Tailteann winners
2 - Provincial winners (ranked by league position)
3 - Provincial runners up (ranked by league position - and ensure provincial championships seeded)
4 - Highest placed league finish
I can see an argument to remove the provincial runners up from the list - but I think balanced provincial representation is more important." Regardless of the format, by tying the SAM Maguire championship to the provincial championship is creating an unfair SAM Maguire.
Up to this year Dublin and Kerry were guaranteed a seeded spot in the All Ireland series (Kerry still are). The weakness of the Leinster and Munster championships then impacts on the teams in the competitive championships (Ulster winner in same position as Munster winner etc).
The only competition which is a fair measure of ability is the league.
If you applied your system for next year, Mayo and Derry would be relegated - which wouldn't do much for the Tailteann cup next year.
The Tailteann cup shouldn't be a chance for silverware for a strong county who have a bad season.
It wasn't designed for Meath/Down/Kildare/Mayo/Derry to be winning it.
I would be an advocate for seeding the provincial winners based on league finish of top 3 teams in the province and not rewarding performance in an unbalanced provincial championships. By granting a provincial loser a spot in SAM to keep a balance of teams from all provinces, you are rewarding Munster (and occasionally Connacht) for having an open draw which gives lower ranked teams a good shot at a provincial final out of pure luck.
In the scenario I propose, this year, Armagh would be 1st seeds, Donegal 2nd, Galway 3rd, Louth 4th and Kerry 5th with Mayo 6th (as losing league finalists)
I would still push for an 18 team Sam Maguire, with the Tailteann winner getting a guaranteed 2 years in the SAM Maguire Championship.
It should be a competition where Sligo, Fermanagh, Westmeath, Laois, Wexford etc have a good chance of winning and then get rewarded with 2 years in SAM Maguire to give them a chance to establish themselves there.
Had my 18 team championship (seeded throughout) applied this year the groups would have been
Group 1: Armagh (1), Meath (12), Westmeath (18)
Group 2: Donegal (2), Derry (11), Down (17)
Group 3: Galway (3), Tyrone (10), Kildare (16)
Group 4: Louth (4), Roscommon (9), Offaly (15)
Group 5: Kerry (5), Monaghan (8), Cork (14)
Group 6: Mayo (6), Dublin (7), Cavan (13)
The tailteann cup draw would be something like the below
Group 1: Kildare, Sligo, Leitrim, Tipperary
Group 2: Offaly, Laois, Wicklow, Waterford
Group 3: Westmeath, Limerick, Antrim, London
Group 4: Fermanagh, Wexford, Carlow, Longford
Group 1: Fermanagh, Wicklow, London
Group 2: Sligo, Leitrim, Longford
Group 3: Laois, Antrim, Tipp
Group 4: Limerick, Wexford, Carlow
Waterford would then enter a group to play Kilkenny/All Britain champ and New York - the winner of which gets to Tailteann Qfinal stage
tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1400 - 21/05/2025 11:40:45
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Here is my format
Four provincial champions get home game in a round of 32 counties, they cannot be drawn against other 1st division teams or losing provincial finalists in first round.
16 winners progress to the next round and on and on until the final 2.
16 losing teams in 1st round enter a secondary cup or shield
The most equitable open draw format there is and it can be wrapped up in 5/6 weeks
boxtyburgerbuns (Leitrim) - Posts: 319 - 21/05/2025 11:45:24
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Replying To boxtyburgerbuns: "Here is my format
Four provincial champions get home game in a round of 32 counties, they cannot be drawn against other 1st division teams or losing provincial finalists in first round.
16 winners progress to the next round and on and on until the final 2.
16 losing teams in 1st round enter a secondary cup or shield
The most equitable open draw format there is and it can be wrapped up in 5/6 weeks" And play it in December to get it out of the way!!!!
Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 2327 - 21/05/2025 12:13:13
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Replying To Seanfanbocht: "And play it in December to get it out of the way!!!!" Seems to be the way the head boys want to run things these days
boxtyburgerbuns (Leitrim) - Posts: 319 - 21/05/2025 12:57:41
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Example 2026 Round 1 draw based on 2025 results.
Donegal v Cavan
Mayo v Tyrone
Kerry v Roscommon
Meath v Cork
Louth v Monaghan
Clare v Down
Galway v Derry
Armagh v Dublin
If this is the Round 1 draw next year, noone knows what is coming in Round 2. You could draw the loser of Armagh v Dublin or Mayo v Tyrone in Round 2B. Better off to keep winning. Roscommon, if they are taking a pragmatic approach, cannot be targeting Meath and Cork.
Whether the above type round draws ignite the championship is difficult to say. Some draws will be foregone conclusions.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8836 - 21/05/2025 13:08:16
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@ tirawleybaron
I'd agree fully that the league should be used for seedings - both in the All Ireland and in the Provincial championships but thats as far as I'd have the link - I fully believe that performance or lack there of in the All Ireland series should be reflected in the teams qualifying each year.
There's still a lot of football to be played - and yes my suggestion would relegate Mayo or Derry if they lose their 3 group matches; but Mayo would have been seeded as #1 based on league form so we'd have different (fairer) groups. If Mayo/Derry did get relegated they would have to win Connaught/Ulster to guarantee getting back in next season and would probably get back in by getting through to the final.
For what its worth - I expect Mayo may still have something to say in this years competition; Derry have looked in freefall so far this year and could very well end up playing Tailteann cup football next year anyway.
brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 445 - 21/05/2025 14:25:48
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Replying To tirawleybaron: "Regardless of the format, by tying the SAM Maguire championship to the provincial championship is creating an unfair SAM Maguire.
Up to this year Dublin and Kerry were guaranteed a seeded spot in the All Ireland series (Kerry still are). The weakness of the Leinster and Munster championships then impacts on the teams in the competitive championships (Ulster winner in same position as Munster winner etc).
The only competition which is a fair measure of ability is the league.
If you applied your system for next year, Mayo and Derry would be relegated - which wouldn't do much for the Tailteann cup next year.
The Tailteann cup shouldn't be a chance for silverware for a strong county who have a bad season.
It wasn't designed for Meath/Down/Kildare/Mayo/Derry to be winning it.
I would be an advocate for seeding the provincial winners based on league finish of top 3 teams in the province and not rewarding performance in an unbalanced provincial championships. By granting a provincial loser a spot in SAM to keep a balance of teams from all provinces, you are rewarding Munster (and occasionally Connacht) for having an open draw which gives lower ranked teams a good shot at a provincial final out of pure luck.
In the scenario I propose, this year, Armagh would be 1st seeds, Donegal 2nd, Galway 3rd, Louth 4th and Kerry 5th with Mayo 6th (as losing league finalists)
I would still push for an 18 team Sam Maguire, with the Tailteann winner getting a guaranteed 2 years in the SAM Maguire Championship.
It should be a competition where Sligo, Fermanagh, Westmeath, Laois, Wexford etc have a good chance of winning and then get rewarded with 2 years in SAM Maguire to give them a chance to establish themselves there.
Had my 18 team championship (seeded throughout) applied this year the groups would have been
Group 1: Armagh (1), Meath (12), Westmeath (18)
Group 2: Donegal (2), Derry (11), Down (17)
Group 3: Galway (3), Tyrone (10), Kildare (16)
Group 4: Louth (4), Roscommon (9), Offaly (15)
Group 5: Kerry (5), Monaghan (8), Cork (14)
Group 6: Mayo (6), Dublin (7), Cavan (13)
The tailteann cup draw would be something like the below
Group 1: Kildare, Sligo, Leitrim, Tipperary
Group 2: Offaly, Laois, Wicklow, Waterford
Group 3: Westmeath, Limerick, Antrim, London
Group 4: Fermanagh, Wexford, Carlow, Longford
Group 1: Fermanagh, Wicklow, London
Group 2: Sligo, Leitrim, Longford
Group 3: Laois, Antrim, Tipp
Group 4: Limerick, Wexford, Carlow
Waterford would then enter a group to play Kilkenny/All Britain champ and New York - the winner of which gets to Tailteann Qfinal stage" Yes Kerry get an easier path to being seeded but then in the All Ireland group stage they can't play the team that they've beaten in the final, that mitigates things a little.
I don't like thinking about the Tailteann cup as not being designed for Meath or Down or Kildare to be winning it.
Whatever about these teams having bigger sounding names than some of the teams they are competing against, it is hard to suggest that they are playing at a level far below their capabilities.
Meath didn't get out of an easy group in last year's Sam. They are somewhere around the 12 to 16th best team in the country, it's not crazy for them to have bad results and drop down a level.
The best thing about having tiered competition is that it allows for more games being played without them being pointless and the championship at present doesn't really make the most of that because there's no relegation tied to the championship.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4537 - 21/05/2025 15:33:40
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Replying To Whammo86: "Yes Kerry get an easier path to being seeded but then in the All Ireland group stage they can't play the team that they've beaten in the final, that mitigates things a little.
I don't like thinking about the Tailteann cup as not being designed for Meath or Down or Kildare to be winning it.
Whatever about these teams having bigger sounding names than some of the teams they are competing against, it is hard to suggest that they are playing at a level far below their capabilities.
Meath didn't get out of an easy group in last year's Sam. They are somewhere around the 12 to 16th best team in the country, it's not crazy for them to have bad results and drop down a level.
The best thing about having tiered competition is that it allows for more games being played without them being pointless and the championship at present doesn't really make the most of that because there's no relegation tied to the championship." At currently set up, tailteann cup success will be the preserve of fallen giants (those that should be operating at a higher level and have dropped for season or two - usually due to bad management rather than terminal decline).
Westmeath winning in 2022 and Laois making the final in 24, is what the cup was designed for - those who are outside the big budget, big population counties, making a good run and winning some silverware.
Extending SAM to 18, ensure Westmeath can keep building with less chance of falling back, and gives Antrim, Sligo (beaten semi finalists twice) and Laois the chance to win silverware and into SAM maguire.
The way the league structure is at the moment, a team winning a 16 team Tailteann has to fight really hard to stay in SAM Maguire the next year (i.e Staying up in Div 2 and focusing on doing well in SAM Maguire are a lot to ask of a team)
If you were to go to deciding SAM Maguire teams on championship performance, 4 up and 4 down is too many in a 16team format. 4 up and 4 down would be ok for an 18 team SAM Maguire.
We should be trying to get as many counties as possible up to a high standard, relegating borderline counties every year would hold them back.
I would like to see a Div 1A/B (12 team), Div 2A/B (12 team) and Div 3 (8 team) leagues and an 18 team SAM Maguire
That way you are giving teams in the 17-24 range more exposure to a higher grade of opponent.
The current structure has pulled up the draw bridge behind the top 12 teams (this years Div 1 + Roscommon, Cork, Louth and Monaghan) while the next 7 (Cavan, Meath, Down, Kildare, Offaly, Clare, Westmeath have become yo-yo counties (between tailteann and SAM and between Div 2 &3).
tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1400 - 21/05/2025 16:32:03
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@brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 441 - 21/05/2025
All comments (that I've read) on this forum considered, none IMHO, bests my AILC, which ticks so many boxes:
✓ Two league tiers of 16, feed three-tier AIC qualification
✓ Balanced game schedule neutralises lopsided Prov SFCs
✓ Three-tier AIC, with mid-tier promotion/relegation
✓ '2,3 or 4' go up/down from Top 16, based on T2 AIC KO
Would it work?
omahant (USA) - Posts: 3251 - 21/05/2025 17:10:14
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@tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1399 - 21/05/2025
My AILC puts 17-20 in a 9-20 Tier 2 AIC; & 21-28 in a Tier 3.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 3251 - 21/05/2025 17:20:37
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Replying To omahant: "@tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1399 - 21/05/2025
My AILC puts 17-20 in a 9-20 Tier 2 AIC; & 21-28 in a Tier 3." Can't you come up with something complicated!!!!
Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 2327 - 21/05/2025 19:55:45
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In my opinion I'd get rid of the league and have provincials and championship run at the same time.
31 Ireland plus London -32 teams
4 groups of 8 seeded by league standings this year. 2 from each league in each pot. The following year's be seeded by how they do in these groups.
Top 3 go through 1st gets bye 2nd v 3rd
Win provincial get 2 bonus points finalist gets 1 bonus point
4th to 8th goes to Tailteann new York plays team with lowest points total. If tie worst points difference in prelim round
4th gets bye 5v 8th 6th v 7th
Starts first weekend in Feb ends mids july
2 home games 2 away 3 neutral
Wk 1 provincials Rd 1 Leinster first round
Wk 2 provincials Rd 2 all provinces
Wk 3 Rest
Wk 4 league 1
Wk 5 league 2
Wk 6 rest
Wk 7 league 3
Wk 8 provincials Rd 3
Wk 9 rest
Wk 10 league 4
Wk 11 league 5
Wk 12 rest
Wk 13 league 6
Wk 14 provincials Rd 4
Wk 15 rest
Wk 16 league Rd 7
Wk 17 rest week new York v lowest ranked team points
Wk 18 Rd 1 Tailteann and Sam
Wk 19 quarters
Wk 20 rest
Wk 21 semi
Wk 22 rest
Wk 23 finals weekend
camánouttathat (Wexford) - Posts: 64 - 21/05/2025 19:59:32
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