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Replying To Viking66: "It wasn't just that. Attendances were down also, spectators were suffering from match fatigue, many lads I'd know wouldn't be able to afford to go to so many games week on week. It's not just the tickets, if you have kids there are loads of other costs.
And when it comes down to a game where it actually really makes no difference whether your county wins or loses, it's very easy to say I'm not going.
Some managers are upset because those extra games gave them the opportunity to tweak tactical stuff, and give more members of the panel gametime to have them ready for when the real AI Championship starts.
Provincial Championships, because they are knockout, do give the chance for weaker counties to have a fairytale summer of sorts. They might not win the Provincial, but they might make a semifinal or final, which gives Football a bit of a boost there. Also there is the Tradition of them also." Upset about lost expenses too I'd imagine
boxtyburgerbuns (Leitrim) - Posts: 189 - 27/02/2025 11:06:04
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Replying To legendzxix: "The constant chopping and changing of the football championship will have to stop. They'll probably have to stick with the new agreed for the foreseeable." I wouldnt agree with that.
The reason for the constant changing is people aren't turning up and counties are spending lots of money on senior football team only for 1 man and his dog to turn up at it.
Any good sport has a slow start, building up to a big finish.
In GAA football - its a slow start, big finish for the league, slow for about two months until the provincials are over and then get going again for the last round of the group stages of the all Ireland.
As long as the crowds are low in mid summer, the GAA need to keep changing to get the crowds in to pay for these big intercounty squads and big management teams.
There is no chance of going back to 1990 again so the format has to change.
- 30 weekends for intercounty competitions
- ideally 15 games per county in football and hurling
- football 1 week, hurling the other.
- 3 tiers in football, 5 in hurling
26 weekends for club championships (club championships start before intercounty is finished in 50% of counties)
Hurling
as is but with additional of inter regional teams playing in June and July - see my post on improving hurling in weaker counties - having no hurling for weaker teams in June and July is frankly b=ll$#it.
Football
Provincial championships in Jan to Mid Feb (and seeded) - 1-3 matches per county
National league in 3 tiers - 12 (1A&b), 12 (2A&B) and 8 - div 1&2 start in march - div 3 starts mid feb - all finished on May bank holiday weekend - league finals and relegation play offs in div 1 and 2 on bank holiday weekend
Championship - 3 tiers - Sam Maguire - 4 groups of 3, Tailteann - 4 groups of 3, No hopers cup - 3 groups of 3 (new york in)
Mid May to mid June - 2 matches each - bottom teams face relegation playoff - in no hopers league - wort team plays junior all Ireland winner to stay in senior football
Mid June to End July - knock out rounds and relegation play offs -
August Bank holiday - All Ireland finals weekend - Tailteann cup on Saturday with inter - regional hurling final,
Senior hurling on Sunday with tier 3 football final, Senior football on Monday
50% of counties finished intercounty by mid July and start club championships in mid July.
100% of counties playing club championships from mid August.
Provincial club championships start first weekend of October for counties eliminated from intercounty at end of june.
Successful counties start provincials Mid/end of October
All Ireland club series takes place in December.
Sigerson cup in November/December also.
All football counties
Provincials: 2/3 for strong - 1/2 for weaker
League: 5/6 for strong - 7/8 for weaker
All Ireland: 5/6 for strong - 3-5 for weaker
Average : 12-15 for strong - 11-15 for weaker
County club: 5/6 for strong - 4/5 for weaker
Provincial club: 2/3 for strong - 1/2 for weaker
All Ireland club: 1/2 games - potential 3rd for Connacht/Munster club v UK champs
Total matches for most successful football player - 26 games + 10 more sigerson/club hurling
Intercounty hurling at the minute has 4-9 championship and 5-7 league - 9-16 matches per county - my proposal would add 1-4 more matches for players playing Joe McDonagh, Christy Ring, Nick Rackard hurling in June & July.
The above fixes all competitions and gives all weaker counties more games in the summer and still gets it all done in 10 months for most and 11 months for all
tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1278 - 27/02/2025 12:45:08
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Replying To boxtyburgerbuns: "Upset about lost expenses too I'd imagine" Could be for sure
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 15210 - 27/02/2025 12:51:42
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Replying To tirawleybaron: "I wouldnt agree with that.
The reason for the constant changing is people aren't turning up and counties are spending lots of money on senior football team only for 1 man and his dog to turn up at it.
Any good sport has a slow start, building up to a big finish.
In GAA football - its a slow start, big finish for the league, slow for about two months until the provincials are over and then get going again for the last round of the group stages of the all Ireland.
As long as the crowds are low in mid summer, the GAA need to keep changing to get the crowds in to pay for these big intercounty squads and big management teams.
There is no chance of going back to 1990 again so the format has to change.
- 30 weekends for intercounty competitions
- ideally 15 games per county in football and hurling
- football 1 week, hurling the other.
- 3 tiers in football, 5 in hurling
26 weekends for club championships (club championships start before intercounty is finished in 50% of counties)
Hurling
as is but with additional of inter regional teams playing in June and July - see my post on improving hurling in weaker counties - having no hurling for weaker teams in June and July is frankly b=ll$#it.
Football
Provincial championships in Jan to Mid Feb (and seeded) - 1-3 matches per county
National league in 3 tiers - 12 (1A&b), 12 (2A&B) and 8 - div 1&2 start in march - div 3 starts mid feb - all finished on May bank holiday weekend - league finals and relegation play offs in div 1 and 2 on bank holiday weekend
Championship - 3 tiers - Sam Maguire - 4 groups of 3, Tailteann - 4 groups of 3, No hopers cup - 3 groups of 3 (new york in)
Mid May to mid June - 2 matches each - bottom teams face relegation playoff - in no hopers league - wort team plays junior all Ireland winner to stay in senior football
Mid June to End July - knock out rounds and relegation play offs -
August Bank holiday - All Ireland finals weekend - Tailteann cup on Saturday with inter - regional hurling final,
Senior hurling on Sunday with tier 3 football final, Senior football on Monday
50% of counties finished intercounty by mid July and start club championships in mid July.
100% of counties playing club championships from mid August.
Provincial club championships start first weekend of October for counties eliminated from intercounty at end of june.
Successful counties start provincials Mid/end of October
All Ireland club series takes place in December.
Sigerson cup in November/December also.
All football counties
Provincials: 2/3 for strong - 1/2 for weaker
League: 5/6 for strong - 7/8 for weaker
All Ireland: 5/6 for strong - 3-5 for weaker
Average : 12-15 for strong - 11-15 for weaker
County club: 5/6 for strong - 4/5 for weaker
Provincial club: 2/3 for strong - 1/2 for weaker
All Ireland club: 1/2 games - potential 3rd for Connacht/Munster club v UK champs
Total matches for most successful football player - 26 games + 10 more sigerson/club hurling
Intercounty hurling at the minute has 4-9 championship and 5-7 league - 9-16 matches per county - my proposal would add 1-4 more matches for players playing Joe McDonagh, Christy Ring, Nick Rackard hurling in June & July.
The above fixes all competitions and gives all weaker counties more games in the summer and still gets it all done in 10 months for most and 11 months for all" Not too bad, except how do you start Provincial club championships first week of October? If for talks sake we got to an AISF in hurling, our club championships wouldn't have a hope of being finished by October. We have a Hurling and a Football club championship.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 15210 - 27/02/2025 13:08:48
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Replying To legendzxix: "The constant chopping and changing of the football championship will have to stop. They'll probably have to stick with the new agreed for the foreseeable." The league's 'four 8s' has stood the test of time.
Hypothetical - if my AILC was implemented, how long would it last?
omahant (USA) - Posts: 3155 - 27/02/2025 13:25:17
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Replying To Seanfanbocht: "Munster Hurling, 4 games in 6 weeks, big attendances.
Entertainment value and "jeopardy" (3 from 5) helps.
Groups, then knock outs are the best and fairest system.
BUT has to be consequences for finishing bottom like Relegation or Relegation play offs as in Club Championships." I do agree and have come around to the suggestion by legendzxix that 4 groups of 5 would be an excellent format for the Sam Maguire once you have relegation for finishing bottom of each group. It would give 2 home games per team as well.
Relegated the bottom team from each of the 4 groups to be replaced by a mix of Tailteann Cup finalists and provincial qualifiers ranked by league position.
brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 412 - 27/02/2025 16:20:24
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Replying To Viking66: "Not too bad, except how do you start Provincial club championships first week of October? If for talks sake we got to an AISF in hurling, our club championships wouldn't have a hope of being finished by October. We have a Hurling and a Football club championship." All ireland hurling semi is mid July.
Club championships could start August weekend.
All ireland club finals 20th Dec
All ireland semis - 13th Dec
All ireland q finals & Leinster/Ulster finals - 30th Nov
Leinster/Ulster semis & Connacht/Munster finals - 13th Nov
Leinster/Ulster q finals & Connacht/Munster semi finals - 01st Nov
Leinster/ulster prelim rds & Connacht/Munster q finals - 18th Oct
Wexford would get a bye through the Leinster prelim rounds to Leinster QF on 01 Nov.
Thats 13 weekends
Wexford club championships are set up to guarantee everyone 5 matches in a group stage followed by 3 more knock out rounds. 8 matches to win the championship - ye are being greedy there because ye generally have the time to do it.
The current Wexford championship needs 16 weeks - 8 weekend of hurling and 8 of football - with a good few dead rubbers
Ye could go to 4 groups of 3 - and run each championship on alternate weekends - 10 weekends of matches in 13 weeks - so room for replays and a good weeks drinking after the county final
most counties have 16 senior teams and 6 games to win the championship - taking 8 for both hurling and football is just dragging it out.
tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1278 - 27/02/2025 16:59:01
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Replying To brianb: "I do agree and have come around to the suggestion by legendzxix that 4 groups of 5 would be an excellent format for the Sam Maguire once you have relegation for finishing bottom of each group. It would give 2 home games per team as well.
Relegated the bottom team from each of the 4 groups to be replaced by a mix of Tailteann Cup finalists and provincial qualifiers ranked by league position." I think you'd be much better combining groups to have 2 groups of 8 and then the games that are being added are the ones that people might actually want to see.
Right now you're looking at adding teams like Antrim, Fermanagh, Laois and Offaly into the All Ireland. Are they actually going to get things going for it in any meaningful way. No I really don't think so.
Now teams do need an opportunity to develop but having a 16 team top tier already does that. Teams like Meath, Louth are a bit off the very best and would be in that top tier, you don't want too many also rans.
The big issue for me in the GAA is this irrational fear of the dead rubber and the avoidance of them at almost all cost. I don't think it's the number of dead rubbers that hurts a competition, the intensity of the live games is what's missing but isn't missing in hurling.
On the people not wanting to travel for games. With more games in a championship I think you'd see fans focus on home games and the bigger away days and I don't think there'd be anything wrong with that. People will be able to go to what they want to.
With the current championship and 12 from 16 qualifying and not really a lot of opportunity for stories to develop, you end up with people not needing to be there. I think with a more challenging qualifying standard for the knockout stages and more time for stories to develop you can get a more engaging competition.
Everyone talks about the magic of a knockout run, but you get a few teams getting some unexpected results maybe there's a different story that can develop and have people looking at their results and the teams around them. That's the beauty of league/group style formats that make them so tried and tested.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4437 - 27/02/2025 17:58:54
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Replying To tirawleybaron: "All ireland hurling semi is mid July.
Club championships could start August weekend.
All ireland club finals 20th Dec
All ireland semis - 13th Dec
All ireland q finals & Leinster/Ulster finals - 30th Nov
Leinster/Ulster semis & Connacht/Munster finals - 13th Nov
Leinster/Ulster q finals & Connacht/Munster semi finals - 01st Nov
Leinster/ulster prelim rds & Connacht/Munster q finals - 18th Oct
Wexford would get a bye through the Leinster prelim rounds to Leinster QF on 01 Nov.
Thats 13 weekends
Wexford club championships are set up to guarantee everyone 5 matches in a group stage followed by 3 more knock out rounds. 8 matches to win the championship - ye are being greedy there because ye generally have the time to do it.
The current Wexford championship needs 16 weeks - 8 weekend of hurling and 8 of football - with a good few dead rubbers
Ye could go to 4 groups of 3 - and run each championship on alternate weekends - 10 weekends of matches in 13 weeks - so room for replays and a good weeks drinking after the county final
most counties have 16 senior teams and 6 games to win the championship - taking 8 for both hurling and football is just dragging it out." I seem to be arguing with you all over the place these days!!
So, in relation to Wexford - you'd expect us to take a club championship format that's been in place for 15 years, and which has proven so popular that there's never been any significant support for any proposal to change away from two groups of six, and slash it in bits. You'd want us to go from a system that guarantees six matches to every club, and bring in one where they'd only be guaranteed two or three matches.
And for what? To try fix perceived problems with the All-Ireland Football Championship.
The club hurler in Wexford would have his whole playing season dramatically altered because some people don't like the system in a different game, at a level higher than which we compete in that game ourselves. Hardly seems fair or reasonable to me.
Would be like telling Tyrone football people that they couldn't run their 16-round League any more because changes are needed to the All-Ireland Hurling Championship.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2788 - 27/02/2025 18:20:27
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The motion at the weekend passed off without very little discussion or debate. The majority of county boards and provincial councils were in agreement. County boards were presented with a number of options last summer. The double eliminator became the early favourite. Prenty wanted 4 groups of 3 with provincial winners straight through to the quarter finals. A potential 5 week gap for some provincial winners scuppered that.
Still amusing that the hurling championship voted in a format not to lose exposure to the Super 8s and hurling has a consistent format as a result!
With the new format, a decision is to be made:
A week off after league finals OR not playing Rounds 2A & 2B, Round 3 and the quarter finals on consecutive weekends.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8631 - 27/02/2025 18:22:35
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Replying To tirawleybaron: "All ireland hurling semi is mid July.
Club championships could start August weekend.
All ireland club finals 20th Dec
All ireland semis - 13th Dec
All ireland q finals & Leinster/Ulster finals - 30th Nov
Leinster/Ulster semis & Connacht/Munster finals - 13th Nov
Leinster/Ulster q finals & Connacht/Munster semi finals - 01st Nov
Leinster/ulster prelim rds & Connacht/Munster q finals - 18th Oct
Wexford would get a bye through the Leinster prelim rounds to Leinster QF on 01 Nov.
Thats 13 weekends
Wexford club championships are set up to guarantee everyone 5 matches in a group stage followed by 3 more knock out rounds. 8 matches to win the championship - ye are being greedy there because ye generally have the time to do it.
The current Wexford championship needs 16 weeks - 8 weekend of hurling and 8 of football - with a good few dead rubbers
Ye could go to 4 groups of 3 - and run each championship on alternate weekends - 10 weekends of matches in 13 weeks - so room for replays and a good weeks drinking after the county final
most counties have 16 senior teams and 6 games to win the championship - taking 8 for both hurling and football is just dragging it out." I personally think we have too many games too, but we are run by democratic process, and what we have is what the majority of clubs here have repeatedly voted for over the last 15 years.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 15210 - 27/02/2025 19:32:39
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The new format could have done with a bit more jeopardy. Roscommon and Monaghan like 2024 can still be knocked out of their provincial championship with an All Ireland spot secure.
Some time down the line if more jeopardy needs to be added and there is support for a Third Tier:
All Ireland Playoff: 15 non provincial finalists playing for 7 spots. (Can be 16 playing for 8 if Tailteann winner makes their provincial final.)
All Ireland Round 1A: Provincial winners at home versus Seed 4.
All Ireland Round 1B: Provincial runners up at home versus Seed 3.
All-Ireland quarter-finals: 1A winners v 1B winners.
8 playoff losers can enter the Tailteann Cup. The counties missing out on the playoffs can enter a Third Tier where they are guaranteed at least 2 games. All counties guaranteed at least 3 games between provincial, playoffs and their tiered championship.
Briefly:
• Provincial knockout before final has jeopardy of a knockout playoff.
• The All Ireland can be completed over straight knockout Round 1A & 1B, QF, SF and Final.
• I'm not going near the lopsided provincial championships. Enough has been said about that!
• Tailteann Cup straight knockout of 8 teams.
• Third Tier should guarantee its participants at least two games.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8631 - 28/02/2025 06:05:40
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Replying To tirawleybaron: "All ireland hurling semi is mid July.
Club championships could start August weekend.
All ireland club finals 20th Dec
All ireland semis - 13th Dec
All ireland q finals & Leinster/Ulster finals - 30th Nov
Leinster/Ulster semis & Connacht/Munster finals - 13th Nov
Leinster/Ulster q finals & Connacht/Munster semi finals - 01st Nov
Leinster/ulster prelim rds & Connacht/Munster q finals - 18th Oct
Wexford would get a bye through the Leinster prelim rounds to Leinster QF on 01 Nov.
Thats 13 weekends
Wexford club championships are set up to guarantee everyone 5 matches in a group stage followed by 3 more knock out rounds. 8 matches to win the championship - ye are being greedy there because ye generally have the time to do it.
The current Wexford championship needs 16 weeks - 8 weekend of hurling and 8 of football - with a good few dead rubbers
Ye could go to 4 groups of 3 - and run each championship on alternate weekends - 10 weekends of matches in 13 weeks - so room for replays and a good weeks drinking after the county final
most counties have 16 senior teams and 6 games to win the championship - taking 8 for both hurling and football is just dragging it out." I think you are on the wrong side of where the wind is blowing here.
County players aren't available enough for their clubs as is. If 6 rounds of club action is dragging it out how is 30 weeks devoted to inter county action not dragging it out also.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4437 - 28/02/2025 08:46:10
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Replying To Whammo86: "I think you'd be much better combining groups to have 2 groups of 8 and then the games that are being added are the ones that people might actually want to see.
Right now you're looking at adding teams like Antrim, Fermanagh, Laois and Offaly into the All Ireland. Are they actually going to get things going for it in any meaningful way. No I really don't think so.
Now teams do need an opportunity to develop but having a 16 team top tier already does that. Teams like Meath, Louth are a bit off the very best and would be in that top tier, you don't want too many also rans.
The big issue for me in the GAA is this irrational fear of the dead rubber and the avoidance of them at almost all cost. I don't think it's the number of dead rubbers that hurts a competition, the intensity of the live games is what's missing but isn't missing in hurling.
On the people not wanting to travel for games. With more games in a championship I think you'd see fans focus on home games and the bigger away days and I don't think there'd be anything wrong with that. People will be able to go to what they want to.
With the current championship and 12 from 16 qualifying and not really a lot of opportunity for stories to develop, you end up with people not needing to be there. I think with a more challenging qualifying standard for the knockout stages and more time for stories to develop you can get a more engaging competition.
Everyone talks about the magic of a knockout run, but you get a few teams getting some unexpected results maybe there's a different story that can develop and have people looking at their results and the teams around them. That's the beauty of league/group style formats that make them so tried and tested." I know what you mean - But I do think dead rubbers are a problem when a team only plays 3 games. These would be gone if relegation from the All Ireland series was based on All Ireland performance regardless of the format.
I think its trying to get the right balance in the completion. In recent years the likes of Meath, Kildare and Down have been out of the Sam Maguire competition - I'd argue that the each team would have had a chance of getting into the knock out rounds and possibly get going from there.
I do also think the swiss league system now used in UEFA competitions would work well in GAA; it would support any number of teams and be flexible to give each team a number of home games in the championship.
So - what is the right number of teams in the top tier? I think we take it back as step and state what do we want to do. For me its:
1) Give every team a guaranteed 2 home championship games
2) Have championship based promotion / relegation
3) Keep the provincial championships relevant
4 groups of 5 would do this; 2 groups of 5 would do this while introducing a 3rd tier; a swiss league system of 16 teams would do this. I think 4 groups of 5 would be most likely to gain support.
Both the current structure and the 2026 structure fail on the first 2 points. I think the 2026 is marginally better for essentially dropping the neutral venue round but we should be able to do so much better.
brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 412 - 28/02/2025 09:51:06
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Replying To Whammo86: "I think you are on the wrong side of where the wind is blowing here.
County players aren't available enough for their clubs as is. If 6 rounds of club action is dragging it out how is 30 weeks devoted to inter county action not dragging it out also." Spot on. Should be a half and half mix. our Senior Championship is still too many games though. 2 years ago our lads played 15 club championship games with only I think 2 weekends off.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 15210 - 28/02/2025 10:09:44
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The hurling group stages are completed over 6 weekends. The majority of teams have 5 games and their season is over.
The provincial knockout is over 6 weekends as well. The majority have 2 games and are left waiting for the Tailteann or All Ireland. Valuable time in a busy split season sees a lot of teams lying idle in football.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8631 - 28/02/2025 10:41:53
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Replying To brianb: "I know what you mean - But I do think dead rubbers are a problem when a team only plays 3 games. These would be gone if relegation from the All Ireland series was based on All Ireland performance regardless of the format.
I think its trying to get the right balance in the completion. In recent years the likes of Meath, Kildare and Down have been out of the Sam Maguire competition - I'd argue that the each team would have had a chance of getting into the knock out rounds and possibly get going from there.
I do also think the swiss league system now used in UEFA competitions would work well in GAA; it would support any number of teams and be flexible to give each team a number of home games in the championship.
So - what is the right number of teams in the top tier? I think we take it back as step and state what do we want to do. For me its:
1) Give every team a guaranteed 2 home championship games
2) Have championship based promotion / relegation
3) Keep the provincial championships relevant
4 groups of 5 would do this; 2 groups of 5 would do this while introducing a 3rd tier; a swiss league system of 16 teams would do this. I think 4 groups of 5 would be most likely to gain support.
Both the current structure and the 2026 structure fail on the first 2 points. I think the 2026 is marginally better for essentially dropping the neutral venue round but we should be able to do so much better." Yeah good post.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4437 - 28/02/2025 11:16:16
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Replying To Viking66: "Spot on. Should be a half and half mix. our Senior Championship is still too many games though. 2 years ago our lads played 15 club championship games with only I think 2 weekends off." From an outside perspective I think if there was something with your championship that seemed odd it was that 4 from 6 qualified. It's even worse no in your hurling where your bottom 2 in each group can still make the quarters. I can see why they did it, gives every team 7 games but I'd say they'd be better having 5 intense group games, 6 to championship knockouts and 6 to relegation playoffs but look I'm an outsider and maybe there's other dynamics at play that makes your competition make sense.
Broadly speaking though, there's about 40 weeks of passable weather to play Gaelic games a year.
I'd think to devote 20 of them to inter county, then 10 to each code's club championship and the remaining time to Provincial/All Ireland club would be much fairer.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4437 - 28/02/2025 11:23:20
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Replying To Whammo86: "From an outside perspective I think if there was something with your championship that seemed odd it was that 4 from 6 qualified. It's even worse no in your hurling where your bottom 2 in each group can still make the quarters. I can see why they did it, gives every team 7 games but I'd say they'd be better having 5 intense group games, 6 to championship knockouts and 6 to relegation playoffs but look I'm an outsider and maybe there's other dynamics at play that makes your competition make sense.
Broadly speaking though, there's about 40 weeks of passable weather to play Gaelic games a year.
I'd think to devote 20 of them to inter county, then 10 to each code's club championship and the remaining time to Provincial/All Ireland club would be much fairer." 10 weeks aren't enough to play club championships. Even if went to 16 teams in each group and went straight knockout we'd barely get done in 10 weeks.
Clubs are the lifeblood of the GAA. Very few players get to play county or Provincial club. Why should the majority get squeezed to accommodate the elite?
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 15210 - 28/02/2025 12:14:05
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Replying To Viking66: "10 weeks aren't enough to play club championships. Even if went to 16 teams in each group and went straight knockout we'd barely get done in 10 weeks.
Clubs are the lifeblood of the GAA. Very few players get to play county or Provincial club. Why should the majority get squeezed to accommodate the elite?" 10 weeks for each code's club championship. 20 in total. Maybe not all championship but it counties were the league is more relevant that they get more access to their county players.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4437 - 28/02/2025 12:54:53
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