National Forum

Experimental Railway Cup

(Oldest Posts First) - Go To The Latest Post


Replying To giveitlong:  "I would have thought what most people wanted was for football to be played like it was in the 80s and 90s Dubs V Meath trilogy etc. What was on display over the weekend was further from that than some of the games this season. While the AI final was shocking stuff Dub v Mayo and Galway and Derry V Mayo were great games. The new rules do not address the 2nd most negative aspect which is the swarm tackle which is destroying the game. Requiring 3 players to remain in opposing half has not done enough to curb ultra defensive play."
Dublin v Mayo wasn't a great game. A lot of playing ball back and over and behind outside a packed defence. The last 20 mins sss good football, both teams pushed on a bit more.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7651 - 20/10/2024 22:42:17    2576061

Link

Replying To giveitlong:  "I would have thought what most people wanted was for football to be played like it was in the 80s and 90s Dubs V Meath trilogy etc. What was on display over the weekend was further from that than some of the games this season. While the AI final was shocking stuff Dub v Mayo and Galway and Derry V Mayo were great games. The new rules do not address the 2nd most negative aspect which is the swarm tackle which is destroying the game. Requiring 3 players to remain in opposing half has not done enough to curb ultra defensive play."
The AI final was shocking stuff because ye bottled it. Actually I enjoyed from start to finish. Fascinating tactical battle, probably beyond your comprehension. Want to go back to the 80/90s rubbish? You got to be joking. More brawn than brains. 70s was even worse.

ORIELMAN85 (Monaghan) - Posts: 386 - 21/10/2024 00:33:26    2576070

Link

Replying To ORIELMAN85:  "The AI final was shocking stuff because ye bottled it. Actually I enjoyed from start to finish. Fascinating tactical battle, probably beyond your comprehension. Want to go back to the 80/90s rubbish? You got to be joking. More brawn than brains. 70s was even worse."
Someone from a county that never won a thing in their lives accusing another county for bottling an All Ireland… laughable.. The All Ireland final was the worst spectacle in recent years and only a deluded person like yourself can't see it or admit to it… A host of new rules being tried out to end this dour unwatchable muck you seem so happy with… Than goodness Jarlath Burns has a lot more brains than you

ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 3025 - 21/10/2024 07:09:39    2576078

Link

Replying To ORIELMAN85:  "The AI final was shocking stuff because ye bottled it. Actually I enjoyed from start to finish. Fascinating tactical battle, probably beyond your comprehension. Want to go back to the 80/90s rubbish? You got to be joking. More brawn than brains. 70s was even worse."
Brains?, there is not much brains in what teams putting thick blankets in place do. It's just basically keep all your men back to block up space.
You don't have to have a great mind to put this in place but this is probably beyond your comprehension.

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1400 - 21/10/2024 09:15:11    2576091

Link

Is the mic'd up ref going to stay? Hearing a ref explaining his decisions as they happen was great. It would go a long way to creating a culture of respect towards the ref.

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 352 - 21/10/2024 10:22:13    2576101

Link

Replying To Eddie the Exile:  "Four issues contribute to the keep-ball epidemic in football:
1. Wide acceptance of throwing the ball instead of handpassing, especially under pressure
2. Goalkeepers adding the extra player to make it impossible to turn the ball over
3. Failure to penalise players for steps anywhere near the scoring area, both for players attacking and coming out with the ball.
4. Most importantly, inadequate definition of the tackle and what contact is allowed.

The FRC have either ignored or stopped short of addressing all of these. The result may be even less of a contest for possession, and erosion of any capacity for weaker panels to remain competitive within games.
The 'new' product will be a sanitized fitness contest of high uncontested scorelines. It will suit big suburban panels but not the blood-and-guts teams that the game is built on. Are the FRC setting out to keep the newly emerging 'GAA soccer mom' demographic happy??
We will be bored in a whole different style.

Give us changes that create a CONTEST for the ball"
Well done - spot on. I was going onto this thread to articulate my view on the problem with football thinking "am I the only one". Unfortunately I've becomes a club and county supporter only ( tribal really) - would hardly watch a match outside of that - why? Too boring, and lacking in skill - just a whole pile of running and throwing ( I wont say handpass) the ball around. I watch lots of hurling, even though I have no emotional stake in it.

So, problem is...what exactly?

Too defensive - Maybe / Maybe not. But even if so, what's the problem with that?
That must mean lack of scores? - Mmm, not too sure. I don't think scoring has changed that much over the years, definitely not significantly
So what is it really?
- Its possession football - ask most fans ( especially general sports fan ) - they say hurling is great, football actually looks awful. For much of it they just see players 'throwing' the ball over and back across the pitch - there is probably more physicality in soccer these days than there is in football. Very few 'contests'.

- You don't need scores to make a game exciting, you need action where you know the winner of a small contest can have a big impact. Thats why hurling is great. Rugby too, general play (not just scores) involves fans cheering and getting excited - football has too little of this.

What exasperates me is (A) the lack of a specific stated problem(s). We have vague aspirations / ideas to make game more exciting and (B) the refusal to deal properly with the root of this - the handpass. As long as the handpass remains the primary means of progressing play the game will remain the embarrassing spectacle it has become.

I have suggested my own solution, not saying its the right one ( handpass all day long, but you cant handpass forwards).... but open to changes which make the game a "contested" game, and to do that you need a more risk / reward game through more kicking, and where handpassing (ie. throwing) has limited benefit.

At least it attempts to deal with the ACTUAL issue ( possession football, with little skill ), and the underlying root cause of excessive handpassing.

The current proposals? Whatever? God forbid they'll look at the elephant in the room.

Solo_Run (Leitrim) - Posts: 217 - 21/10/2024 13:42:06    2576162

Link

Replying To ForeverBlue2:  "Someone from a county that never won a thing in their lives accusing another county for bottling an All Ireland… laughable.. The All Ireland final was the worst spectacle in recent years and only a deluded person like yourself can't see it or admit to it… A host of new rules being tried out to end this dour unwatchable muck you seem so happy with… Than goodness Jarlath Burns has a lot more brains than you"
What is your opinion on the following finals - 80, 81, 84, 88, 90, 94, 95, 97, 99, 02, 03, 11, 15.. just a few from 1980 on with similar scorelines.

sam2024 (Armagh) - Posts: 38 - 21/10/2024 13:50:31    2576164

Link

Replying To Aibrean:  "OK, but where is the logic in stopping the arc at the 20 metre line?
There must be some reason for it."
I agree. The point from the sideline is probably the most aesthetically pleasing score in football and hurling, but now there's a an area of the pitch by the sideline inside the 21, which would fall outside the arc and should be worth 2 points.

But for some unknown reason the arc doesn't extend to it. So there is ZERO incentive to shoot from there. This rules committee has basically killed the most beautiful score in football and the only discernable reason I can think of is the lads painting the arc in Croke Park reached the 20 and said "ah shut this is grand here!"

ballydalane (Kilkenny) - Posts: 1256 - 21/10/2024 15:31:03    2576191

Link

Replying To sam2024:  "What is your opinion on the following finals - 80, 81, 84, 88, 90, 94, 95, 97, 99, 02, 03, 11, 15.. just a few from 1980 on with similar scorelines."
Couldn't care less what sort of finals you are after wasting your time typing up… the only thing that interests me is the current state of Gaelic football which is deplorable… The powers that be knows the game is muck and turning both players and supporters away so have been trying everything possible to try and change the playing rules to encourage a better spectacle….. If the game was so good why on earth would a special committee be set up to radically change the rules…? Everyone knows the game in its current state has turned into a laughable mess that nobody wants to see… Have a bit of wit and wake up….

ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 3025 - 21/10/2024 17:22:07    2576230

Link

Replying To Eddie the Exile:  "Four issues contribute to the keep-ball epidemic in football:
1. Wide acceptance of throwing the ball instead of handpassing, especially under pressure
2. Goalkeepers adding the extra player to make it impossible to turn the ball over
3. Failure to penalise players for steps anywhere near the scoring area, both for players attacking and coming out with the ball.
4. Most importantly, inadequate definition of the tackle and what contact is allowed.

The FRC have either ignored or stopped short of addressing all of these. The result may be even less of a contest for possession, and erosion of any capacity for weaker panels to remain competitive within games.
The 'new' product will be a sanitized fitness contest of high uncontested scorelines. It will suit big suburban panels but not the blood-and-guts teams that the game is built on. Are the FRC setting out to keep the newly emerging 'GAA soccer mom' demographic happy??
We will be bored in a whole different style.

Give us changes that create a CONTEST for the ball"
Would agree ,though Morgan and Beggan seemed to start the trend of outfield keepers. Ethan Rafferty last year left his goal at any opportunity. Its over done . Lynch caught out 3 times against donegal this year

FoolsGold (Cavan) - Posts: 2824 - 21/10/2024 17:53:34    2576237

Link

Replying To ballydalane:  "I agree. The point from the sideline is probably the most aesthetically pleasing score in football and hurling, but now there's a an area of the pitch by the sideline inside the 21, which would fall outside the arc and should be worth 2 points.

But for some unknown reason the arc doesn't extend to it. So there is ZERO incentive to shoot from there. This rules committee has basically killed the most beautiful score in football and the only discernable reason I can think of is the lads painting the arc in Croke Park reached the 20 and said "ah shut this is grand here!""
Whether right or wrong, I would imagine the reason it stops there is because you can claim a mark inside that line, and they didn't want a converted mark to be worth 2 points.
Still, no reason they couldn't have allowed it be worth 2 points if scored from open play.
A strange one alright.

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5193 - 21/10/2024 18:31:24    2576242

Link

2 points from a 45 is controversial. A player might block a point and the ball goes out for a 45. Harsh to be then penalised with the prospect of conceding 2 points from the 45.
If a defensive touch is made in the 1 point zone that results in a 45, the 45 should only offer 1 point.
If in the very unlikely event a defensive touch in the 2 point zone results in a 45, the 45 could then possibly offer 2 points if they want to persist with that scoring system.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8282 - 21/10/2024 19:54:01    2576248

Link

O'Neiils will sell some of the interprovincial jersies used at the weekend within the next few weeks.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7651 - 21/10/2024 20:06:06    2576250

Link

Excuse if explained in earlier messages. So how is score recorded? In car, on phone waiting for someone....

All-Ireland Final 2050

Leitrim 2-5 (13)
Dublin 1-9 (12)

Leitrim win by 1 point? Since all 5 points coming from distance, or is it

Leitrim 2-0-5
Dublin 1-9-0

maybe Leitrim 2-5-0, Dublin 1-0-9

Solo_Run (Leitrim) - Posts: 217 - 21/10/2024 21:13:45    2576254

Link

Replying To Solo_Run:  "Well done - spot on. I was going onto this thread to articulate my view on the problem with football thinking "am I the only one". Unfortunately I've becomes a club and county supporter only ( tribal really) - would hardly watch a match outside of that - why? Too boring, and lacking in skill - just a whole pile of running and throwing ( I wont say handpass) the ball around. I watch lots of hurling, even though I have no emotional stake in it.

So, problem is...what exactly?

Too defensive - Maybe / Maybe not. But even if so, what's the problem with that?
That must mean lack of scores? - Mmm, not too sure. I don't think scoring has changed that much over the years, definitely not significantly
So what is it really?
- Its possession football - ask most fans ( especially general sports fan ) - they say hurling is great, football actually looks awful. For much of it they just see players 'throwing' the ball over and back across the pitch - there is probably more physicality in soccer these days than there is in football. Very few 'contests'.

- You don't need scores to make a game exciting, you need action where you know the winner of a small contest can have a big impact. Thats why hurling is great. Rugby too, general play (not just scores) involves fans cheering and getting excited - football has too little of this.

What exasperates me is (A) the lack of a specific stated problem(s). We have vague aspirations / ideas to make game more exciting and (B) the refusal to deal properly with the root of this - the handpass. As long as the handpass remains the primary means of progressing play the game will remain the embarrassing spectacle it has become.

I have suggested my own solution, not saying its the right one ( handpass all day long, but you cant handpass forwards).... but open to changes which make the game a "contested" game, and to do that you need a more risk / reward game through more kicking, and where handpassing (ie. throwing) has limited benefit.

At least it attempts to deal with the ACTUAL issue ( possession football, with little skill ), and the underlying root cause of excessive handpassing.

The current proposals? Whatever? God forbid they'll look at the elephant in the room."
It's a chicken and egg situation. The problem is the packed defense so everyone funnels back. A top coach looks at it and decides the solution is keep possession and wait patiently for an opening. They're two sides to the same coin. The new rules don't combat this but make the possession part of it easier.

The obvious game plan is to bring the keeper up as an extra man and wait for the press which will always leave a loose man somewhere and patiently move the ball until you can find him. The fly-keeper is less risky than it was as 3 men are back minding the house.

The rules needs to be changed to keep the keeper in goal. Then all teams could go man on man on the full pitch if they want. The fact that there's an extra attacker at all times means the only way to setup defensively is zonal.

I still believe the best solution would involve either a shot clock or a no backwards rule either of which would encourage quicker movement of the ball through the lines.

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 352 - 21/10/2024 21:38:39    2576261

Link

Replying To legendzxix:  "2 points from a 45 is controversial. A player might block a point and the ball goes out for a 45. Harsh to be then penalised with the prospect of conceding 2 points from the 45.
If a defensive touch is made in the 1 point zone that results in a 45, the 45 should only offer 1 point.
If in the very unlikely event a defensive touch in the 2 point zone results in a 45, the 45 could then possibly offer 2 points if they want to persist with that scoring system."
Agree with what you're saying but I'd use the 2 point arc for points from play only.

Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2150 - 21/10/2024 22:36:56    2576270

Link

Replying To FoolsGold:  "Would agree ,though Morgan and Beggan seemed to start the trend of outfield keepers. Ethan Rafferty last year left his goal at any opportunity. Its over done . Lynch caught out 3 times against donegal this year"
I actually think the two you mention were late to the party.
The progression to possession-based football starting from between the sticks began more with Cluxton and Dublin. Shorter, low risk kick-outs to retain the ball, serious detail on ball retention above all else in open play (see the 2018 final as a classic example), eschewing lower percentage shots as part of the game plan, slowing the game to a crawl in their own half at times before a burst of pace, and playing a specialist hand-passer at 11 (Kilkenny). All were core elements.

I'm not saying that's the way Dublin started out under Gavin but they certainly evolved to that style. It was a tactical innovation that gave them the capacity to beat all-comers, including an almost great Mayo team who in contrast thrived on chaos and uncertainty. The response of lesser panels to tighten up on defence and play cautiously also emerged from witnessing the hammerings handed out by Dublin et al. Not arguing it was the right response but it was a a factor at least in part.

There is no denying that changes are needed. The changes made have to address the real issues however, and in a more mechanistic fashion i.e. analyze, uncover the underlying cause of a problem, and deal with it as simply and elegantly as possible. It is concerning for example that the committee members over the weekend repeatedly mentioned the survey circulated in advance of the draft rules, and that the "top 5 concerns" were met- this was trumpeted as evidence of success. Having completed the survey myself, it was abundantly clear it was designed to give almost a pre-ordained outcome. For example, " would you agree that cynical play is a negative in the game" Eh, yes!

For sure, I applaud the initiative and the efforts of those involved, but please let's see a full exploration of the problems and not just an outcome that responds to a poorly designed survey.

Eddie the Exile (Monaghan) - Posts: 1121 - 21/10/2024 23:24:55    2576279

Link

Replying To Solo_Run:  "Excuse if explained in earlier messages. So how is score recorded? In car, on phone waiting for someone....

All-Ireland Final 2050

Leitrim 2-5 (13)
Dublin 1-9 (12)

Leitrim win by 1 point? Since all 5 points coming from distance, or is it

Leitrim 2-0-5
Dublin 1-9-0

maybe Leitrim 2-5-0, Dublin 1-0-9"
Jeez, got that wrong myself, apparently in 2050 final, extra time beckoned........

All-Ireland Final 2050 ( latest !!)
Leitrim 2-09 (26)
Dublin 2-14 (22)

....... wasn't that close really, seems we'll win handy enough in the end.....

Further thoughts the score will have to be

Leitrim 26, Dublin 22. ..... any other representation other than pure points is confusing, if points have different scores the we'll have a three -score system

Leitrim 2-9-0
Dublin 2-0-14


....... so a 2pointer (points from long range) how is it recorded on scoreboard? Has to be accumulated points i would think, adding up all the 3 scoring methods?

Thoughts from the proponents?

Solo_Run (Leitrim) - Posts: 217 - 21/10/2024 23:53:49    2576281

Link

Replying To Solo_Run:  "Jeez, got that wrong myself, apparently in 2050 final, extra time beckoned........

All-Ireland Final 2050 ( latest !!)
Leitrim 2-09 (26)
Dublin 2-14 (22)

....... wasn't that close really, seems we'll win handy enough in the end.....

Further thoughts the score will have to be

Leitrim 26, Dublin 22. ..... any other representation other than pure points is confusing, if points have different scores the we'll have a three -score system

Leitrim 2-9-0
Dublin 2-0-14


....... so a 2pointer (points from long range) how is it recorded on scoreboard? Has to be accumulated points i would think, adding up all the 3 scoring methods?

Thoughts from the proponents?"
It would be some job at a junior club game with no scoreboard to try and keep the score… Referees are struggling with the current system so heaven help us how would they cope with this… even Coldrick on Saturday didn't know who was winning and he was looking up at the scoreboard in Croke Park… Just leave the scoring system alone….

ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 3025 - 22/10/2024 07:07:23    2576287

Link

Replying To Eddie the Exile:  "I actually think the two you mention were late to the party.
The progression to possession-based football starting from between the sticks began more with Cluxton and Dublin. Shorter, low risk kick-outs to retain the ball, serious detail on ball retention above all else in open play (see the 2018 final as a classic example), eschewing lower percentage shots as part of the game plan, slowing the game to a crawl in their own half at times before a burst of pace, and playing a specialist hand-passer at 11 (Kilkenny). All were core elements.

I'm not saying that's the way Dublin started out under Gavin but they certainly evolved to that style. It was a tactical innovation that gave them the capacity to beat all-comers, including an almost great Mayo team who in contrast thrived on chaos and uncertainty. The response of lesser panels to tighten up on defence and play cautiously also emerged from witnessing the hammerings handed out by Dublin et al. Not arguing it was the right response but it was a a factor at least in part.

There is no denying that changes are needed. The changes made have to address the real issues however, and in a more mechanistic fashion i.e. analyze, uncover the underlying cause of a problem, and deal with it as simply and elegantly as possible. It is concerning for example that the committee members over the weekend repeatedly mentioned the survey circulated in advance of the draft rules, and that the "top 5 concerns" were met- this was trumpeted as evidence of success. Having completed the survey myself, it was abundantly clear it was designed to give almost a pre-ordained outcome. For example, " would you agree that cynical play is a negative in the game" Eh, yes!

For sure, I applaud the initiative and the efforts of those involved, but please let's see a full exploration of the problems and not just an outcome that responds to a poorly designed survey."
Handpassing totally ignored.
Thought process seemed to be loads of scores = good games.
Basketball and cricket if that's your thing!

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1950 - 22/10/2024 08:56:35    2576298

Link