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Replying To Pikeman96: "Oulart were missing both Billy Dunne and Shaun Murphy against Ferns, and still gave it a good lash. If they can get those two back, I'd fancy them to give somebody else a rattle as well.
They've got three weeks to get them back for a preliminary quarter-final v the Rapps, but to be honest, unless the Rapps can really find something extra, I'd fancy Oulart to beat them even without those two players. And that would give them five weeks altogether for Murphy and Dunne to come back.
But at the risk of opening up that hornets nest again...isn't this further evidence of how the new system only really benefits the lower-down teams?
Take even the so-called benefit for a 1st-placed team of an "easier" quarter-final (against a team from 5th or 6th place, instead of a team from 4th). In senior, this could see them play either against a resurgent Oulart, or a Cloughbawn team who have already beaten a first-placed team. Any other year, Oulart and Cloughbawn would already be out of the championship, but now they could be sitting in there as potential banana skins." I've been looking at all the talk on here about the format and whether its fair or not. Does it really matter? The more things change the more they stay the same. Basically we are down to a knock out championship where everyone is still in it. same as what the championship was in the 1980s. Win 3 or 4 games and you win the championship. it will take luck and hard work to get there and may the best team win. the rest is all talk. If I was a player or involved in a team id just be focussing on the next game and then see what happens. the rest (and a lot of the chatter here) is just noise!!
bystanderbill (Wexford) - Posts: 31 - 03/09/2024 14:52:53
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Replying To Pikeman96: "Oulart were missing both Billy Dunne and Shaun Murphy against Ferns, and still gave it a good lash. If they can get those two back, I'd fancy them to give somebody else a rattle as well.
They've got three weeks to get them back for a preliminary quarter-final v the Rapps, but to be honest, unless the Rapps can really find something extra, I'd fancy Oulart to beat them even without those two players. And that would give them five weeks altogether for Murphy and Dunne to come back.
But at the risk of opening up that hornets nest again...isn't this further evidence of how the new system only really benefits the lower-down teams?
Take even the so-called benefit for a 1st-placed team of an "easier" quarter-final (against a team from 5th or 6th place, instead of a team from 4th). In senior, this could see them play either against a resurgent Oulart, or a Cloughbawn team who have already beaten a first-placed team. Any other year, Oulart and Cloughbawn would already be out of the championship, but now they could be sitting in there as potential banana skins." Wasn't that supposed to be one of the benefits of the new system? Higher standards?
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13296 - 03/09/2024 15:01:26
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I can assure you that all the teams and management did their very best to initially finish top 2 and then secondly not in the bottom 2 and if you think otherwise you have not been anywhere near a Relegation scrap in a long time.
No one out there in their right mind thinks that any club looked at the format and thought sure let's sneak into 5th and have an easy prelim quarter final.
The only thing on the mind of clubs now who ended up 5th or 6th is please God do not let us get relegated.
They would 100% trade finishing 3rd and losing than now being in a defacto Relegation Semi Final even if the prize for winning is a 1/4 spot.
Paull (Wexford) - Posts: 181 - 03/09/2024 15:40:59
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Replying To zinny: "So in senior none will win it and to get over the PQF and avoid a regulation final they are relying on lads coming back from injury etc. Their panels are so thin that an injury in the first 5mins could see them in a relegation final. I struggle to see where the upside is." How would Gorey go without 2 or 3 of their best players? Or Martins without Rory? Harriers without Chin? Annes without Mogie and Dee? Shels without Hearne and Donohue? Of course Oulart would have been alot better with Dunne and Murphy, and Cloughbawn with Flood.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13296 - 03/09/2024 17:27:16
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Replying To Paull: "I can assure you that all the teams and management did their very best to initially finish top 2 and then secondly not in the bottom 2 and if you think otherwise you have not been anywhere near a Relegation scrap in a long time.
No one out there in their right mind thinks that any club looked at the format and thought sure let's sneak into 5th and have an easy prelim quarter final.
The only thing on the mind of clubs now who ended up 5th or 6th is please God do not let us get relegated.
They would 100% trade finishing 3rd and losing than now being in a defacto Relegation Semi Final even if the prize for winning is a 1/4 spot." Finally the first sensible comment on here
alwaysasub (Wexford) - Posts: 423 - 03/09/2024 20:30:51
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Replying To Viking66: "How would Gorey go without 2 or 3 of their best players? Or Martins without Rory? Harriers without Chin? Annes without Mogie and Dee? Shels without Hearne and Donohue? Of course Oulart would have been alot better with Dunne and Murphy, and Cloughbawn with Flood." How would they go - pretty sure they wouldn't be in relegation playoffs.
zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 1851 - 03/09/2024 22:36:55
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Replying To hurlin101: "Great points made here. To answer the last part, very few of the 5th place teams would roll that dice.
Senior - Neither oulart or cloughbawn will win it out but after both recently coming up they will desperately want to avoid a relegation final, therefore both would happily end their year now in 5th like previous years I would imagine.
Intermediate - Gusserane and horeswood, same as above as neither would win it out and wouldn't want to go back down after both recently gaining promotion too after making great strides over recent times.
Intermediate A - Clongeen having recently gotten ptomoted too would happily take 5th and finish for the year there im sure but Adamstown perhaps are a little bit different after recently coming down perhaps they would feel they still have a chance of contesting.
Junior - Harriers , happy to finish out the year in 5th
marshalstown, maybe would happily roll the dice
junior A - oylegate and tara rocks more than happy to finish out the year 5th
So I would have it 2 or maybe 3 out of 10 5th placed teams that would roll that dice and go for a quarter final with relegation also on the line.
There are 6 teams who have no points after 5 championship games, any player or mentor would tell you themselves that you deserve to be in a relegation final if that happens. As said above the current system only benefits teams who come 1st and 6th, while also benefit the clubs and players who don't play football." Don't think the clubs you mentioned would be happy with finish 5th and be happy their year is over if in the old format. Doubt they have trained all year for that.
Yes they now have the possibility of a relegation final but also the possibility of a 1/4 final.
The only negative of the current structure I see is that the likes of rapps and crossabeg who lost all their group games can put one performance together and avoid relegation final. Whereas a club can have 2 wins from the group and lose the preliminary 1/4 then into relegation final.
Yellowhelmet (Australia) - Posts: 111 - 03/09/2024 22:55:42
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Replying To Viking66: "Wasn't that supposed to be one of the benefits of the new system? Higher standards?" And didn't you say that talk of higher standards was a red herring?
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2435 - 03/09/2024 23:54:36
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Replying To Viking66: "How would Gorey go without 2 or 3 of their best players? Or Martins without Rory? Harriers without Chin? Annes without Mogie and Dee? Shels without Hearne and Donohue? Of course Oulart would have been alot better with Dunne and Murphy, and Cloughbawn with Flood." Agree - very difficult for the likes of Oulart / Cloughbawn when they are without their best players .. Didn't St. Martins end up in relegation final against Oulart few years ago due to ROC missing and a few others .. I thought I heard that Rathnure had 3 cruciate injuries 2 years ago when they ended up in relegation final against Cloughbawn .. full back / centre back / centre forward and then Sean O Connor was out with concussion for last 3 group games .. but saved them in the final .. At least the current format allows fellas to try get back from injury .. pull a hamstring in the split season and your season could be over ..
Preliminary Q/F are down for the weekend of 21st Sept
MyOhMi (Wexford) - Posts: 139 - 04/09/2024 09:18:09
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Don't think the format is too bad but def needs tweaking to make it more intense .
Yes every team is trying to be in top 2 and def not in bottom 2 .
But the safety net has to affect the overall intensity of the games at certain stages during round Robin.
Which I believe in time will not improve the standard in fact i think it will have the opposite effect .
Listen to any coach manager . They will Tell you it's nigh on impossible to reproduce the intensity of full blooded knock out like every round Robin early win or two takes pressure off but lose 1 maybe 2 then yiu see what teams made of .
Thats what sorts the men from the boys, winners from losers use whatever clichés you like .
The real championship starts now from here on in .
Has any team really been tested up to now have they had to go deep in the well . Any game I ve seen has nt had that championship fever definitely a little less intense maybe not huge but enough to lower the standard under pressure .
Not every round Robin game will have it that's for sure.
But there are certain games at certain stages that will define ur championship and your year and that's when you will learn about your players and your team .
Only example I would think was harriers v clougbawn in last game where the loser could potentially go out in preliminary or finish 2nd 3rd or 4th 5th .depending on shels oylgate result did both teams give everything would they have viewed it differently if one was exiting championship .
Take oulart if they were playing c/beg in the 2nd last game knowing they out of championship if the lost and in relegation battle would any of the injured players close to returning been chanced if it meant safety for another year or potential relegation final . I cant answer that question . But knowing u get 2 chances and would rather have fully fit player for preliminary 1/4 final what would you as manager .
Now if you were to tweak that 6th is out and in relegation and potential preliminary 1/4 final fir winner what would you do as manager player .
Formertownie (Wexford) - Posts: 257 - 04/09/2024 10:22:58
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Replying To Pikeman96: "And didn't you say that talk of higher standards was a red herring?" It was you in that post that were implying that standards would now be higher with lads returning from injury. Overall standard of players isn't going to improve just because of a format change. Players aren't going to magically get better than they were last year because of it.
So from that point of view, i.e. raising the standard of player available for our intercounty team, it is a red herring.
But it obviously will raise the standard of our club championship if the new format enables teams to get their top players back from injury.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13296 - 04/09/2024 10:32:37
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Replying To Yellowhelmet: "Don't think the clubs you mentioned would be happy with finish 5th and be happy their year is over if in the old format. Doubt they have trained all year for that.
Yes they now have the possibility of a relegation final but also the possibility of a 1/4 final.
The only negative of the current structure I see is that the likes of rapps and crossabeg who lost all their group games can put one performance together and avoid relegation final. Whereas a club can have 2 wins from the group and lose the preliminary 1/4 then into relegation final." Surely another negative is potential 3rd place teams can be out after winning 3 games not even make 1/4 final . Where you finish 5th (maybe win 1) or 6th(lose all your games you can mahe a 1/4 final .
Any league of any sort bottom team relegated end of story maybe bottom 2 .
Formertownie (Wexford) - Posts: 257 - 04/09/2024 10:52:59
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Replying To Formertownie: "Surely another negative is potential 3rd place teams can be out after winning 3 games not even make 1/4 final . Where you finish 5th (maybe win 1) or 6th(lose all your games you can mahe a 1/4 final .
Any league of any sort bottom team relegated end of story maybe bottom 2 ." Completely agree with all of that. I don't need to wait till the end of the championship to know that this is a ridiculous format. As another poster has already alluded to, the clubs don't want groups of 4 so it's looking like groups of 6 for the foreseeable future. While the previous format was far from perfect, it absolutely ****** over this one!
YellowShadeOfPurple (Wexford) - Posts: 22 - 05/09/2024 14:55:50
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I don't think the standard of hurling will change much no matter what format is used and I don't think anyone would suggest that teams aren't trying to do as well as possible in the group stages
But if we're being honest, this is pretty much a knock-out championship with 30 games in each division to decide the seedings; I can understand the logic behind using group games as seedings for a proper knock-out championship but needing 5 games for each side to determine seedings is OTT
I don't think Jarlath Burns is happy with our formats right now (Although he has no right to determine what we can and cannot do) but we have to be honest with ourselves, do we want a league championship or a proper knock-out championship? Because the one we currently have is neither, it's just a needlessly elongated knock-out championship
And I don't get the injuries talk, injuries were more of an issue under than split season than anything else and like it or not but injuries will always be a part of the game, you have to adjust around them, I don't think the current format really offers any material improvement on the previous one when it comes to injuries tbh
ElGranSenor (Wexford) - Posts: 341 - 05/09/2024 18:15:46
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