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Replying To wexfordwin: "A move to four groups of four would be crazy for a few reasons. One reason is less games and I presume the new hurling format is for more games and secondly you will have too many poor teams playing senior. At underage the premier grade is eight teams and I heard somewhere recently that they can't get any more than 3 or 4 clubs to go premier in football." Yeah, despite how it might help with scheduling, I remain opposed to the idea myself.
I remember when it previously operated - there were many examples of what you'd have to consider "bad" senior clubs hanging in there year after year, by virtue of being 14th or 15th best. Contributing little or nothing to the championship by way of competitiveness, and showing no great sign of improvement themselves, which is the argument you usually hear in favour of 16 (i.e. "more lads playing at a higher standard will bring everybody on").
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2453 - 16/08/2024 11:16:29
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Replying To Pikeman96: "Yeah, despite how it might help with scheduling, I remain opposed to the idea myself.
I remember when it previously operated - there were many examples of what you'd have to consider "bad" senior clubs hanging in there year after year, by virtue of being 14th or 15th best. Contributing little or nothing to the championship by way of competitiveness, and showing no great sign of improvement themselves, which is the argument you usually hear in favour of 16 (i.e. "more lads playing at a higher standard will bring everybody on")." Could maybe do 8 teams in Senior but that might be too cut-throat
ElGranSenor (Wexford) - Posts: 342 - 17/08/2024 17:06:14
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Very strange on here that there is so little engagement . Suppose it's one if the downfalls of the new system .
Are better teams holding back and just going through motions and banking on winning knock out and trying just to finish tip 4 .
Others training hard since early new year and still could be in bottom 2 .
Was appointment of Richie power Master stroke by shels with his insight into how the system actually works and what's the best strategy for this set up where others just guessing and gathering info intermittently.
They look odds on to make 2 top if not already guaranteed and earn a week off is that the only real reward .
If they are successful will there be a clamour for kilkeeny coaches/ managers next year assuming format is kept . Personally I dont like it but that's just personal opinion.
Does it suit bigger clubs /panels where they can experiment with players and still have enough to finish outside bottom 2 where smaller panels bystingca gut to get into 4 . All remains to be seen
Normally going into penultimate round the tension would be palpable but it seems subdued at present .
Or am i missing something take rapps lose this weekend they def in bottom 2 could give walkover in kast round and be in no worse a situation and get weeks rest don't imagine that will happen but it's an option . There list of injuries is growing . What would stop them doing it .
The next round of the football wil be cutthroat and decisive but being football and the campaign to downgrade the significance of it . It will only be of major importance to those involved .
If u missed next 2 rounds of the hurling what would u actually miss in fairness .
Is it working will there be much interest in it at all up to preliminary 1/4 finals ..
Still find it hard to get head round 3rd place could go out before 1/4 final 6th could win the championship .
5th and 6th in theory have easier preliminary 1/4 final
Would it be fairer 5 th played 4th in preliminary 1/4 and 6ths in relegation regardless .
Would make last couple rounds certainly more competitive and interesting IMO .
Just seems unfair and certain level of disinterest at present.
Will it improve inter County hurlers where there is no real cutthroat game til latter stages . Even round Robin in leinster has more risk attached .
Give most teams a week off and 6 quaranteed games. If u finish 4th or 5th u be only too eager to stay in championship and be glad to be
Formertownie (Wexford) - Posts: 261 - 20/08/2024 14:16:41
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Replying To Formertownie: "Very strange on here that there is so little engagement . Suppose it's one if the downfalls of the new system .
Are better teams holding back and just going through motions and banking on winning knock out and trying just to finish tip 4 .
Others training hard since early new year and still could be in bottom 2 .
Was appointment of Richie power Master stroke by shels with his insight into how the system actually works and what's the best strategy for this set up where others just guessing and gathering info intermittently.
They look odds on to make 2 top if not already guaranteed and earn a week off is that the only real reward .
If they are successful will there be a clamour for kilkeeny coaches/ managers next year assuming format is kept . Personally I dont like it but that's just personal opinion.
Does it suit bigger clubs /panels where they can experiment with players and still have enough to finish outside bottom 2 where smaller panels bystingca gut to get into 4 . All remains to be seen
Normally going into penultimate round the tension would be palpable but it seems subdued at present .
Or am i missing something take rapps lose this weekend they def in bottom 2 could give walkover in kast round and be in no worse a situation and get weeks rest don't imagine that will happen but it's an option . There list of injuries is growing . What would stop them doing it .
The next round of the football wil be cutthroat and decisive but being football and the campaign to downgrade the significance of it . It will only be of major importance to those involved .
If u missed next 2 rounds of the hurling what would u actually miss in fairness .
Is it working will there be much interest in it at all up to preliminary 1/4 finals ..
Still find it hard to get head round 3rd place could go out before 1/4 final 6th could win the championship .
5th and 6th in theory have easier preliminary 1/4 final
Would it be fairer 5 th played 4th in preliminary 1/4 and 6ths in relegation regardless .
Would make last couple rounds certainly more competitive and interesting IMO .
Just seems unfair and certain level of disinterest at present.
Will it improve inter County hurlers where there is no real cutthroat game til latter stages . Even round Robin in leinster has more risk attached .
Give most teams a week off and 6 quaranteed games. If u finish 4th or 5th u be only too eager to stay in championship and be glad to be" I'm still not really a fan of the format, the idea that a club could win one group game and end up in a county final shows that it's not cut throat until the knock outs , on paper Crossabeg and Oulart this weekend is probably the first, the winner is more or less safe and on paper the loser is pretty much guaranteed to be in the relegation final considering they play Gorey and Ferns next respectively.
I still think there was a case to be made for two tiered senior groups as in Limerick.
OpenStandWall (Wexford) - Posts: 132 - 20/08/2024 17:13:58
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Replying To Formertownie: "Very strange on here that there is so little engagement . Suppose it's one if the downfalls of the new system .
Are better teams holding back and just going through motions and banking on winning knock out and trying just to finish tip 4 .
Others training hard since early new year and still could be in bottom 2 .
Was appointment of Richie power Master stroke by shels with his insight into how the system actually works and what's the best strategy for this set up where others just guessing and gathering info intermittently.
They look odds on to make 2 top if not already guaranteed and earn a week off is that the only real reward .
If they are successful will there be a clamour for kilkeeny coaches/ managers next year assuming format is kept . Personally I dont like it but that's just personal opinion.
Does it suit bigger clubs /panels where they can experiment with players and still have enough to finish outside bottom 2 where smaller panels bystingca gut to get into 4 . All remains to be seen
Normally going into penultimate round the tension would be palpable but it seems subdued at present .
Or am i missing something take rapps lose this weekend they def in bottom 2 could give walkover in kast round and be in no worse a situation and get weeks rest don't imagine that will happen but it's an option . There list of injuries is growing . What would stop them doing it .
The next round of the football wil be cutthroat and decisive but being football and the campaign to downgrade the significance of it . It will only be of major importance to those involved .
If u missed next 2 rounds of the hurling what would u actually miss in fairness .
Is it working will there be much interest in it at all up to preliminary 1/4 finals ..
Still find it hard to get head round 3rd place could go out before 1/4 final 6th could win the championship .
5th and 6th in theory have easier preliminary 1/4 final
Would it be fairer 5 th played 4th in preliminary 1/4 and 6ths in relegation regardless .
Would make last couple rounds certainly more competitive and interesting IMO .
Just seems unfair and certain level of disinterest at present.
Will it improve inter County hurlers where there is no real cutthroat game til latter stages . Even round Robin in leinster has more risk attached .
Give most teams a week off and 6 quaranteed games. If u finish 4th or 5th u be only too eager to stay in championship and be glad to be" I think it definitely suits bigger clubs, who know they can improve gradually as the championship progresses and just do enough to make Q- finals. Harder on teams who have been training hard to secure status it must be a long year for those with the weeks breaks in between games to try and keep momentum going if they get a win. Maybe that's the aim of this format is to get a more accurate representation of the best hurling teams over more games. Next round will tell a lot with a lot on the line for many teams. Bookies give 6 teams a strong chance ( Gorey, Ferns, Anne's, Martins, Oylegate, Shels) with two outsiders ( GB and Harriers)
WexMurph (Wexford) - Posts: 215 - 20/08/2024 18:24:26
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Replying To Formertownie: "Very strange on here that there is so little engagement . Suppose it's one if the downfalls of the new system .
Are better teams holding back and just going through motions and banking on winning knock out and trying just to finish tip 4 .
Others training hard since early new year and still could be in bottom 2 .
Was appointment of Richie power Master stroke by shels with his insight into how the system actually works and what's the best strategy for this set up where others just guessing and gathering info intermittently.
They look odds on to make 2 top if not already guaranteed and earn a week off is that the only real reward .
If they are successful will there be a clamour for kilkeeny coaches/ managers next year assuming format is kept . Personally I dont like it but that's just personal opinion.
Does it suit bigger clubs /panels where they can experiment with players and still have enough to finish outside bottom 2 where smaller panels bystingca gut to get into 4 . All remains to be seen
Normally going into penultimate round the tension would be palpable but it seems subdued at present .
Or am i missing something take rapps lose this weekend they def in bottom 2 could give walkover in kast round and be in no worse a situation and get weeks rest don't imagine that will happen but it's an option . There list of injuries is growing . What would stop them doing it .
The next round of the football wil be cutthroat and decisive but being football and the campaign to downgrade the significance of it . It will only be of major importance to those involved .
If u missed next 2 rounds of the hurling what would u actually miss in fairness .
Is it working will there be much interest in it at all up to preliminary 1/4 finals ..
Still find it hard to get head round 3rd place could go out before 1/4 final 6th could win the championship .
5th and 6th in theory have easier preliminary 1/4 final
Would it be fairer 5 th played 4th in preliminary 1/4 and 6ths in relegation regardless .
Would make last couple rounds certainly more competitive and interesting IMO .
Just seems unfair and certain level of disinterest at present.
Will it improve inter County hurlers where there is no real cutthroat game til latter stages . Even round Robin in leinster has more risk attached .
Give most teams a week off and 6 quaranteed games. If u finish 4th or 5th u be only too eager to stay in championship and be glad to be" This new format is a disaster for both codes. In any competition you need to have jeopardy so most games actually matter. The reverse is the case now, very few games actually matter so the championship will only start in the knock outs. It's also forcing dual clubs and a lot of players to prioritise one code. I'm not sure the county board can be blamed either, clubs pushed for this.
Timbertony (Wexford) - Posts: 262 - 20/08/2024 18:34:45
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Replying To Timbertony: "This new format is a disaster for both codes. In any competition you need to have jeopardy so most games actually matter. The reverse is the case now, very few games actually matter so the championship will only start in the knock outs. It's also forcing dual clubs and a lot of players to prioritise one code. I'm not sure the county board can be blamed either, clubs pushed for this." The biggest issue is the 6 team 2 group format as regards lack of jeopardy. Year before last Rathnure lost all their group games and still stayed up.
Think we should wait until the championship is over before we judge the format. There is a good advantage to finishing 1st, you play one of the teams who finished 5th or 6th in a QF after a week off. Finishing 2nd also gives you an extra week off. Finishing in the bottom 2 means you could conceivably be relegated, and even if you win your preliminary QF you end up playing one of the 2 teams who topped their group. Finishing 3rd or 4th means you make a preliminary QF with no fear of being relegated, and you avoid the 2 group winners in a QF if you win the preliminary QF.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13322 - 20/08/2024 20:19:51
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Replying To OpenStandWall: "I'm still not really a fan of the format, the idea that a club could win one group game and end up in a county final shows that it's not cut throat until the knock outs , on paper Crossabeg and Oulart this weekend is probably the first, the winner is more or less safe and on paper the loser is pretty much guaranteed to be in the relegation final considering they play Gorey and Ferns next respectively.
I still think there was a case to be made for two tiered senior groups as in Limerick." They dont even have to win a group game . But literally 5th 6th is only real.jeopardy as can be relegated.
Looks odds on that oulart and cbeg are going to be in that scenario assuming ferns beat glynn as you d expect
Between Rapps harriers cloubgbawn and possibly oylgate fight it out for bottom 2 in other group . This weekend will prob not it think it'll come down to harriers and cloughbawn kast game to decide who finishes 5th . .
If yu finish 6th u deserve to be in relegation final . Most years 5th place could be deemed unlucky and possibly play off 4th and 5th opposite groups should be only prelimibary 1/4 fibsl . Finish top 3 you deserve to be in 1/4 final . Not facing into preliminary 1/4 finsl where you be out before 1/4 final. Where 2 of 5 or 6thplaces teams in group guaranteed a 1/4 final.
Just does nt sit well or seem fair
Formertownie (Wexford) - Posts: 261 - 20/08/2024 22:09:39
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Replying To Viking66: "The biggest issue is the 6 team 2 group format as regards lack of jeopardy. Year before last Rathnure lost all their group games and still stayed up.
Think we should wait until the championship is over before we judge the format. There is a good advantage to finishing 1st, you play one of the teams who finished 5th or 6th in a QF after a week off. Finishing 2nd also gives you an extra week off. Finishing in the bottom 2 means you could conceivably be relegated, and even if you win your preliminary QF you end up playing one of the 2 teams who topped their group. Finishing 3rd or 4th means you make a preliminary QF with no fear of being relegated, and you avoid the 2 group winners in a QF if you win the preliminary QF." Finishing first or second would actually get you an extra two weeks off - and that might turn out to be a complaint as well.
The calendar is like this:
W/end of August 30 to Sept. 1 - Hurling Round 5
Sept. 6 to Sept. 8 - Football Round 4
Sept. 13 to Sept. 15 - Football Round 5
Sept. 20 to Sept. 22 - Hurling preliminary q/finals (i.e. teams that finish third to sixth)
Sept. 27 to Sept. 29 - Football q/finals
Oct. 4 to Oct. 6 - Hurling q/finals
So, if you finish between third and sixth in hurling, you'll have a three-week gap before your preliminary quarter-final.
But if you finish first or second, you'll have a five-week game between hurling matches. You'll be off from August 31 or September 1 until the first weekend of October.
And how that might turn out to be a complaint would be if a significant number of first- and second-placed teams end up losing their quarter-finals. There'd be complaints that a five-week gap was too long, and that it was too hard to pick things up again after such a long lay-off.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2453 - 21/08/2024 10:43:03
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Replying To Formertownie: "They dont even have to win a group game . But literally 5th 6th is only real.jeopardy as can be relegated.
Looks odds on that oulart and cbeg are going to be in that scenario assuming ferns beat glynn as you d expect
Between Rapps harriers cloubgbawn and possibly oylgate fight it out for bottom 2 in other group . This weekend will prob not it think it'll come down to harriers and cloughbawn kast game to decide who finishes 5th . .
If yu finish 6th u deserve to be in relegation final . Most years 5th place could be deemed unlucky and possibly play off 4th and 5th opposite groups should be only prelimibary 1/4 fibsl . Finish top 3 you deserve to be in 1/4 final . Not facing into preliminary 1/4 finsl where you be out before 1/4 final. Where 2 of 5 or 6thplaces teams in group guaranteed a 1/4 final.
Just does nt sit well or seem fair" I'm starting to like these suggestions for teams that finish fourth and fifth, and in particular, this one.
Top three in each group going straight to quarter-finals, fourth and fifth playing off the remaining two spots, and sixth going straight to a relegation final. Would introduce a lot more jeopardy and ensure there's a lot more to play for going into rounds four and five of the group.
Two possible downsides, if anybody got nit-picky (the way I do myself sometimes!) -
- Wouldn't help with the calendar. You'd still have an extra round of games, even with just those two preliminary quarter-final fixtures.
- Wouldn't achieve the stated aim of this year's format, of giving an extra "meaningful" game to most clubs. Just four clubs would have an extra game, not eight.
However, I'd immediately counter that second one by saying the majority of the group games this year aren't particularly meaningful at all, and seems that many more share that view.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2453 - 21/08/2024 10:49:47
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Agree 4th and 5th play off would be better for sure and 6th into relegation all guaranteed at least 6 games for all .
6 teams not guaranteed 7 games thats it .
Losers of preliminary 1/4s and relegation finalists. The top 2 only adding 2 more to that list really with above format .
Think clubs not really looking for extra games just did nt want the shortened season which the split season brought and would give teams a week off which every team would relish to prepare for 1/4 final proper and reward for finishing top 3 .
Along with a championship season that would last minimum 11/12 weeks to max of 16 /17 weeks in the hurling .
Excluding all county league . Season lasting anywhere between 9 to 10 and 1/2 mths depending on when you start training to ow long you stay in championship. Think thats quite long enough.
No point in adding extra game for clubs when it diminishes the competivness of at least half the league format gsmes.
With format I put up i think almost every game in every round would be of significance . .
Still believe team finishing bottom of group should not get another chance . Only chance they should get Is to stay up by winning relegation final..
Play 2 preliminary 1/4 finals and relegation final on week off fir top 3 . There would be huge interest and competitiveness in all 3 . 2 preliminary double header and stand alone relegation final or triple header on Saturday or Sunday in park . Be some days hurling
Formertownie (Wexford) - Posts: 261 - 21/08/2024 11:37:11
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Not thinking straight really . Sure all hurling only teams tgat finish top 2 have 4 week break between 5th rounds and 1/4 final. Imagine if playing both codes tgd week rest/prep be very welcome though
Formertownie (Wexford) - Posts: 261 - 21/08/2024 12:18:38
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Haven't been to as many games as I'd like. one thing I'm always interested in is the standard of refereeing. There seems to be a wider spread of the refereeing duties now (especially in the football championship). To date 10 different referees have done senior Hurling Champ and 12 have done Senior football. With some overlap in codes but I do notice more of the established referees reffing at the junior and intermediate codes which is good. not much new refs coming through. Collie Byrne is the only one of note. What's your opinion of the overall standard of reffing - I would think it has improved based on what games I saw.
bystanderbill (Wexford) - Posts: 31 - 21/08/2024 12:40:34
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Replying To Formertownie: "Agree 4th and 5th play off would be better for sure and 6th into relegation all guaranteed at least 6 games for all .
6 teams not guaranteed 7 games thats it .
Losers of preliminary 1/4s and relegation finalists. The top 2 only adding 2 more to that list really with above format .
Think clubs not really looking for extra games just did nt want the shortened season which the split season brought and would give teams a week off which every team would relish to prepare for 1/4 final proper and reward for finishing top 3 .
Along with a championship season that would last minimum 11/12 weeks to max of 16 /17 weeks in the hurling .
Excluding all county league . Season lasting anywhere between 9 to 10 and 1/2 mths depending on when you start training to ow long you stay in championship. Think thats quite long enough.
No point in adding extra game for clubs when it diminishes the competivness of at least half the league format gsmes.
With format I put up i think almost every game in every round would be of significance . .
Still believe team finishing bottom of group should not get another chance . Only chance they should get Is to stay up by winning relegation final..
Play 2 preliminary 1/4 finals and relegation final on week off fir top 3 . There would be huge interest and competitiveness in all 3 . 2 preliminary double header and stand alone relegation final or triple header on Saturday or Sunday in park . Be some days hurling" Triple headers can turn into a bit of an ordeal for lads with children. But the rest of your post makes alot of sense.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13322 - 21/08/2024 13:01:49
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Replying To Formertownie: "Not thinking straight really . Sure all hurling only teams tgat finish top 2 have 4 week break between 5th rounds and 1/4 final. Imagine if playing both codes tgd week rest/prep be very welcome though" I think Rathnure are the only hurling only team that will finish in the top 2 tbh.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13322 - 21/08/2024 13:16:31
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Replying To bystanderbill: "Haven't been to as many games as I'd like. one thing I'm always interested in is the standard of refereeing. There seems to be a wider spread of the refereeing duties now (especially in the football championship). To date 10 different referees have done senior Hurling Champ and 12 have done Senior football. With some overlap in codes but I do notice more of the established referees reffing at the junior and intermediate codes which is good. not much new refs coming through. Collie Byrne is the only one of note. What's your opinion of the overall standard of reffing - I would think it has improved based on what games I saw." Collie Byrne is excellent. Refereeing has been pretty good. All referees make mistakes and it's unreasonable to expect them not to.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13322 - 21/08/2024 13:17:53
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Prob going on a bit now but the reward for going well ad finishig top 2 .is week off and game less when the reason to change format was to give more games in the first place . Kinda contradicts itself.
Final word on it .
What is the optimum amount of games and is it quantity over quality .
Take locsl soccer how much real interest is there in it as a spectator snd they play 20 odd games and same few teams win it year I'm year out .
I don't know the answers same as anyone else just trying to find a happy balance between quantity and quality . But don't feel if yiu finish 6th you can still potentially win .
If the football was run the same kilanerin would still fancy themselves as would others . But they are under some pressure now to get results which may make them make choices and decisions they would nt if there was the safety net of finishing 5th 6th and still in championship .
Rapps as opposed to starlights situation similar .
Formertownie (Wexford) - Posts: 261 - 21/08/2024 13:45:04
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Still a good bit away but won't be long coming around either, winners play Kildare winners in QF with Dublin winners and Laois winners on the same side of the draw in the other QF.
OpenStandWall (Wexford) - Posts: 132 - 21/08/2024 15:19:42
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Predictions for the weekend;
Rapps-Harriers, Harriers by 4
Cloughbawn-Shels, Shels by 6
Oylegate-Martins, draw
Anne's-Gorey, Anne's by 2
Ferns-Barntown, Ferns by 4
Oulart-Crossabeg, Oulart by 2
OpenStandWall (Wexford) - Posts: 132 - 21/08/2024 15:23:48
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Replying To OpenStandWall: "Predictions for the weekend;
Rapps-Harriers, Harriers by 4
Cloughbawn-Shels, Shels by 6
Oylegate-Martins, draw
Anne's-Gorey, Anne's by 2
Ferns-Barntown, Ferns by 4
Oulart-Crossabeg, Oulart by 2" People are saying that the championship isn't as good but here, there are 6 games I'd find very hard to call. I'd go-
Rapps-Harriers, draw
Cloughbawn-Shels, Cloughbawn by 1
Oylegate-Martins, Martins by 1
Anne's-Gorey, Anne's by 1
Ferns-Barntown, draw
Oulart-Crossabeg, Oulart by 1
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13322 - 21/08/2024 16:50:47
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