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Replying To bottletopbill: "I was at the match and was positioned where the linesman was. It could not have been a more obvious point. The linesman came under no pressure to call referee, he was sure it was a point too. Linesman was acting as Hawkeye as he had best view, he didn't have to summons James Owens. No doubt the goal attempt would have been a handy point to draw the match. Overall a shocking decision" In that scenario, ref is stuck between linesman and umpire but ultimately has to make the final decision. They would usually side with the linesman in my experience, often a qualified referee for starters, but umpire could be a pal doing multiple games with them. Rotten way to go out of the championship.
Timbertony (Wexford) - Posts: 301 - 23/10/2024 14:01:09
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Replying To StoreysTash: "What is the most crazy part about all of this is
1. The game was played 11 days ago and they are no nearer a resolution.
2. The other county finalist is already decided
3. The long delay could hurt either these 2 teams or Rathnure in the final
4. Rathnure have no idea when the final will be
5. This could cost Rathnure (likely winners) a proper shot at the Leinster club hurling championship.
If an objection is lodged in GAA it needs to be dealt with within a few days and all avenues exhausted. Due process, fair enough, but due process also needs to be expedient. Not a long drawn out process where one team is also trying to prepare for an Intermediate football final with this going on and they have no idea what is coming afterwards.
From my Antipodean and unbiased viewpoint, the best thing to do is to have a replay. You can't say how teams would play out the end of a match had the score been different. It is just too open to what aboutery.
What is the feeling on the ground in general, aside from the "who is wrong" argument is local opinion that there should be a replay?" Maybe they should just call it all off at the meeting and hand over the cup to Rathnure by your read. I'm sure St. James' preparations for a semi final might also be affected by the scenario, who have only played one hurling match since August.
hownow1 (Wexford) - Posts: 4 - 23/10/2024 14:51:50
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@StoreysTash - thing is, local opinion about whether or not there should be a replay doesn't matter. A replay can only happen if both sides agree to it, and one of them is dead set against it.
@Wex98 - it all depends on how the game came to have only one score in it. Was it because the referee didn't record scores correctly? Action can be taken. Or was it because he awarded a "score" that was actually wide, or didn't award one that he should have? No action possible.
An example from a minor hurling semi-final I played in myself - and that makes it 30-something years ago if I was playing minor!
We were a point down in injury time. One of our lads sent in a long shot, looking for the equalising point. I was corner forward and was following it in towards the goal. Our full forward was doing the same.
The ball dropped into the net instead of going over the bar. We cheered. Two points up!
A minute later, ref blew the final whistle. We cheered again. Then we went mad when he announced it was a draw. There were no umpires, and he was so far away from that last effort that he thought the ball had dropped over the bar instead. There was no changing his mind. We lost the replay, and there went my chance of playing a county final.
Now - if there'd been a video clearly showing the ball dropping into the net, ref's scoreline could have been overturned, as he obviously recorded a score incorrectly.
On the other hand, if he'd seen it drop to the net but wrongly ruled it out for a square ball offence, there'd have been no comeback. Same thing if the ball had actually gone over the bar, but with the referee wrongly deeming it wide. His scoreline would have properly reflected scores awarded and decisions made on the day.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2617 - 23/10/2024 15:28:57
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Replying To Pikeman96: "@StoreysTash - thing is, local opinion about whether or not there should be a replay doesn't matter. A replay can only happen if both sides agree to it, and one of them is dead set against it.
@Wex98 - it all depends on how the game came to have only one score in it. Was it because the referee didn't record scores correctly? Action can be taken. Or was it because he awarded a "score" that was actually wide, or didn't award one that he should have? No action possible.
An example from a minor hurling semi-final I played in myself - and that makes it 30-something years ago if I was playing minor!
We were a point down in injury time. One of our lads sent in a long shot, looking for the equalising point. I was corner forward and was following it in towards the goal. Our full forward was doing the same.
The ball dropped into the net instead of going over the bar. We cheered. Two points up!
A minute later, ref blew the final whistle. We cheered again. Then we went mad when he announced it was a draw. There were no umpires, and he was so far away from that last effort that he thought the ball had dropped over the bar instead. There was no changing his mind. We lost the replay, and there went my chance of playing a county final.
Now - if there'd been a video clearly showing the ball dropping into the net, ref's scoreline could have been overturned, as he obviously recorded a score incorrectly.
On the other hand, if he'd seen it drop to the net but wrongly ruled it out for a square ball offence, there'd have been no comeback. Same thing if the ball had actually gone over the bar, but with the referee wrongly deeming it wide. His scoreline would have properly reflected scores awarded and decisions made on the day." I agree @pikeman96 but I don't believe that there is video evidence in this case to make this call......... now this is only based on the quality of video I have seen for club games.
I think you would have needed SKY sports coverage to get that point turned into a goal tho!!
WEX98 (Wexford) - Posts: 474 - 23/10/2024 17:57:59
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June 2023 - note: the referees score stood.
The official scoreline for last weekend's Joe McDonagh Cup final, in which Carlow beat Offaly after extra-time, has been recorded incorrectly.
Carlow won the game by a point and referee Thomas Walsh recorded the score as 2-29 to 1-31, which aligned with the Croke Park scoreboard on the day. However, the actual score was 2-30 to 1-32.
While it made no difference to the outcome, the referee's report of the game is the official correspondence and his version will remain unchanged in the record books.
The 'missing' points appear to have been lost in the first half of extra-time. The matter is understood to have been brought to the attention of the referee at the time when the scoreboard differed from the scores being recorded by some of the other officials present. The referee was satisfied, however, that the score he had was correct.
RTÉ, who were broadcasting live, changed their scoreline and some members of the media covering the game also adjusted their notes to reflect the official position. But not all did and consequently points by Carlow's Marty Kavanagh and Offaly's Eoin Cahill that they scored were attributed to them.
WEX98 (Wexford) - Posts: 474 - 23/10/2024 19:14:02
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Come to think of it, even if we'd had Sky quality video from six different angles of that goal/point more than 30 years ago, it might not have been as clearcut as I suggested earlier.
Referee wrongly awarded a point, but correctly recorded his decision to award a point.
I think it would probably have gone against us. Would be more like Meath v Louth in 2009 than anything else.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2617 - 23/10/2024 19:19:42
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Replying To Timbertony: "In that scenario, ref is stuck between linesman and umpire but ultimately has to make the final decision. They would usually side with the linesman in my experience, often a qualified referee for starters, but umpire could be a pal doing multiple games with them. Rotten way to go out of the championship." I read the article in the People about this match. It sounds like it was a wrong call but there was at least 3-4 scores after this play so there must have been some time left on the clock when this incident happened?
Was there a sun for either the umpire or the linesman to deal with? We have all seen it though, ball curling away over the post and it is not an easy call for any of the officials. Having seen some umpires in action though even at inter county level I don't know what referee would back their umpire over a linesman. There is no doubting you have a better view of the flight of the ball from the line than beside the post.
But borderline calls are borderline calls at the end of the day.
ExiledInWex (Dublin) - Posts: 1259 - 23/10/2024 21:11:16
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@WEX98 - the big difference in that Carlow v Offaly match was that the mistake didn't affect the outcome of the game. Carlow won by a point anyway.
This is specifically covered in the rule which I've already quoted for you. The relevant section from Rule 7.4(n) of Part 1 states:
(ii) that a score allowed by the referee was not recorded by the Referee or that a score was incorrectly
recorded by the Referee, thereby affecting the result of the Game;
The referee incorrectly recording the score on that occasion clearly did not affect the result of the game. (Note that 'result' in this context means who won the game or if it was a draw, rather than the actual scoreline of the game).
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2617 - 23/10/2024 22:05:13
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Have on good authority that Fethard have been unsuccessful in overturning the result of the game.
Fallout2 (Wexford) - Posts: 10 - 24/10/2024 09:18:37
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Replying To Fallout2: "Have on good authority that Fethard have been unsuccessful in overturning the result of the game." Same. Interesting to see if they appeal.
Paull (Wexford) - Posts: 187 - 24/10/2024 09:41:16
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Heard the same, presume they will appeal also.
alwaysasub (Wexford) - Posts: 444 - 24/10/2024 10:11:08
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Have heard the same myself re. Fethard losing the case. Would be interesting to hear the reasons behind the decision. Could come back to the thing about while the video might show the ball going over the bar whatever number of times, it wouldn't conclusively prove that the referee awarded every one of them as scores.
Fethard would be able to appeal last night's decision all right, but considering that the three "outsiders" brought in to deal with it are of the same sort of standing as you'd find on the DRA itself, I'd say it's unlikely that their decision will be overturned anywhere up the line. I'd be fairly sure their processes and decision would be watertight.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2617 - 24/10/2024 10:24:41
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I hope Jenkins is proud of himself.
countyman2022 (Wexford) - Posts: 727 - 24/10/2024 11:01:34
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Replying To hownow1: "Maybe they should just call it all off at the meeting and hand over the cup to Rathnure by your read. I'm sure St. James' preparations for a semi final might also be affected by the scenario, who have only played one hurling match since August." Sorry!
Somebody told me Rathnure won the other semi and I only notice now that that match was not played. In my defence, I am 10k miles away.
Apologies to all in St. James, naturally they have every chance of winning it but the rest of my post regarding the speed of sorting this out still stands.
StoreysTash (Wexford) - Posts: 1784 - 24/10/2024 12:10:10
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Replying To StoreysTash: "Sorry!
Somebody told me Rathnure won the other semi and I only notice now that that match was not played. In my defence, I am 10k miles away.
Apologies to all in St. James, naturally they have every chance of winning it but the rest of my post regarding the speed of sorting this out still stands." Rathnure did win their semi-final. They beat Buffers Alley last Saturday. Strange that the result is not on the Wexford GAA website, but I know that's some of central Croke Park system that relies on referees submitting scorelines after each match. Looks like another talking point about referees and scorelines....! :)
As things stand (i.e. fixtures sent earlier this week, and following last night's decision):
Bunclody will play St. James in other semi-final next Saturday, November 2.
Final will be played on Sunday November 10.
Of course, that all depends on any possible further appeal, and how long it might take.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2617 - 24/10/2024 12:40:42
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Replying To countyman2022: "I hope Jenkins is proud of himself." Can't imagine he will ever ref a Fethard game again anyway! Don't think they have anything to lose going up to DRA, losing battle or not, local CCC found in their favour too. Hope they go on and win football this week anyway, with players back I think they will give the Martins a fair rattle and if they got through the Jimmies would have done likewise with Rathnure. As a matter of interest, which of the two clubs was dead set against any replay?
Timbertony (Wexford) - Posts: 301 - 24/10/2024 12:51:23
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Replying To Timbertony: "Can't imagine he will ever ref a Fethard game again anyway! Don't think they have anything to lose going up to DRA, losing battle or not, local CCC found in their favour too. Hope they go on and win football this week anyway, with players back I think they will give the Martins a fair rattle and if they got through the Jimmies would have done likewise with Rathnure. As a matter of interest, which of the two clubs was dead set against any replay?" As regards one of the clubs being opposed to a replay - I don't want to say here, and I deliberately haven't said. Of course, it's open to others to say, if they want to!
But from I've heard from a reliable source - even that got messy. At first, one club was opposed to the idea, while the other would have taken it. But as things went along, both clubs changed their minds. So, still the case that one of them opposed to it, but now not the same one.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2617 - 24/10/2024 13:36:56
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Replying To Pikeman96: "Have heard the same myself re. Fethard losing the case. Would be interesting to hear the reasons behind the decision. Could come back to the thing about while the video might show the ball going over the bar whatever number of times, it wouldn't conclusively prove that the referee awarded every one of them as scores.
Fethard would be able to appeal last night's decision all right, but considering that the three "outsiders" brought in to deal with it are of the same sort of standing as you'd find on the DRA itself, I'd say it's unlikely that their decision will be overturned anywhere up the line. I'd be fairly sure their processes and decision would be watertight." That was my point of view.
WEX98 (Wexford) - Posts: 474 - 24/10/2024 19:38:34
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Still a huge mess .
If fethard are out .
It will always leave a stain in this championship regardless of who wins it .
Not bunclodys fault but still feel they will know they should ld be out and I m sure some members would rather not win it now if they had any conscience and if they go on any further and by chance win it .
How will it be perceived.
You would have to feel sorry for fethard a years effort gone on the back of a ref unwilling to admit a mistake the consequences far outweigh admission of his failure to do so
.
Whatever they are they are a committed bunch and did nt deserve this and make great use of the resources they have .
If every team/club had what they had wexford would be a harder team to beat .
I ll say it again too the people officiating at these hearings cannot and do not know the full rules or are not able to interpret them.
Some partly due to unclear guidelines others through arrogance and doing what they feel is right where in most cases they don't get challenged .
This mess goes to prove that .
For every arrogant ref there are even more arrogant officials that will never admit they got it wrong .
The world we live in where very few will take responsibility for their actions or mistakes.
Honesty is becoming less of moral .
Formertownie (Wexford) - Posts: 299 - 25/10/2024 08:51:59
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Replying To Pikeman96: "Rathnure did win their semi-final. They beat Buffers Alley last Saturday. Strange that the result is not on the Wexford GAA website, but I know that's some of central Croke Park system that relies on referees submitting scorelines after each match. Looks like another talking point about referees and scorelines....! :)
As things stand (i.e. fixtures sent earlier this week, and following last night's decision):
Bunclody will play St. James in other semi-final next Saturday, November 2.
Final will be played on Sunday November 10.
Of course, that all depends on any possible further appeal, and how long it might take." I forgot this was a quarter final with winners playing St. James.
It soundss an almighty mess.
The biggest weakness in the GAA really is the amount of avenues for appeal.
StoreysTash (Wexford) - Posts: 1784 - 25/10/2024 12:40:00
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