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Wexford Club Hurling Championship.

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I m not upto date on how the vote was done and why the HAC were able to make arguments for the introduction of new format on the night where you would imagine most clubs had given their rep the way they should vote either for or against .
Surely any argument for by HAC should have been given on that night and then brought back to clubs to discuss and decide how they wanted to vote at later date .
I can't understand or am I missing something here . How HAC argued for, you vote , and possibly changed the vote on the night already decided by clubs . Am I wrong to think this was some sort of coup .
Or was there a counter argument against allowed or brought forward on the night .

Formertownie (Wexford) - Posts: 305 - 01/09/2024 22:23:16    2567925

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Replying To Formertownie:  "I m not upto date on how the vote was done and why the HAC were able to make arguments for the introduction of new format on the night where you would imagine most clubs had given their rep the way they should vote either for or against .
Surely any argument for by HAC should have been given on that night and then brought back to clubs to discuss and decide how they wanted to vote at later date .
I can't understand or am I missing something here . How HAC argued for, you vote , and possibly changed the vote on the night already decided by clubs . Am I wrong to think this was some sort of coup .
Or was there a counter argument against allowed or brought forward on the night ."
Most of the clubs that I was talking to were either backing the HAC proposal before the meeting, or undecided. There were other options that clubs proposed and spoke for also.
The only reason there was a discussion at all was because people weren't happy with the status quo. If they were there wouldn't have been people proposing changes in the 1st place.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 14123 - 02/09/2024 08:06:26    2567936

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Fair enough but just me thinking it should ve been all spoken and debated about before the vote was taken and not on the same night .
Where the clubs could have discussed and made their decision aftrr they had time mull it over .
Remains to be seen if the decoupling of the codes is just the start of HAC hoping to further enhance the hurling structures at footballs expense . Abd what the next step in that process is . I m fairly sure there will be more proposals to that regard . And the anti football brigade

Formertownie (Wexford) - Posts: 305 - 02/09/2024 09:19:54    2567954

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Replying To Formertownie:  "Now that the league sudecif championship is done . Do ye still think it's a workable format .
My thoughts are takingʻ harriers and ferns as an example coming third in league section and would fancy them to beat glynn and oylgate , . But if they do they will play one of the 2 2nd place teams in the 1/4 final proper the very same as if there was no preliminary 1/4 final. But could also be out before 1/4 final where 2 of 5th and 6th place teams guaranteed 2 1/4 final spots.
Just does nt sit right . There no way in my opinion 6th should be allowed to stay in championship . And 3rd should nt be in position to be knocked out before 1/4 final . Just my opinion"
You're very right about teams like the Harriers and Ferns. Here's another way of looking at things:

- Teams that finish first and second just qualify for a quarter-final, exactly the same as they would have done in "the old way" anyway. So they're no better off.

- Teams that finish third and fourth now have to win a do-or-die knockout match just to get into a quarter-final that they would have been in under the previous system. So they're worse off.

- Teams that finish fifth and sixth, instead of being out of the championship, are now given another chance. So they're better off.

- And furthermore, teams that finish sixth now have two chances to avoid relegation instead of just one, so they're even better off again.

Look at it that way, and you'll conclude that the only beneficiaries of the new system are the teams that finish fifth and sixth. Now, is it a good championship system if it really only rewards the "bad" teams?

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2648 - 02/09/2024 09:46:49    2567960

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That's it in a nutshell it's reward the poorer teams . Cloughbawn could easily end up in relegation if they get any more bad or unlucky/injuries .
Both teams on bottom have no points and average defeats of 8pts and 11pts . But can avoid relegation if the win a preliminary 1/4 final by playing the next poorest teams on this particular year . Not saying anything about any of the clubs involved it could be Any team in any year .
But there has to be some reward for winning games in round Robin and none for losing every game.
I d be happy with 4 th v 5th in prelim 1/4 final and 6th v 6th in relegation final . 1,2, 3 in 1/4 final .
Any team finishing 6th got 5 games to get results already .
Or go 4th v 4th and 5th v 5th in preliminary 1/4 final loser 5th v 5th goes into relegation semi final to play the best placed 6th ie rapps at present and loser that semi play c/beg in relegation final .
Loser 4th v 4th out .
Might not seem fair but still fairer than present scenario . Where 3rd and 4th in danger of going out with 11 teams left to fight it out either for championship or senior survival
Would keep last couple rounds hurling fairly interesting and incentive to lower placed teams to try their best with something at stake .
Going into last round both rapps and cbeg would ve been rewarded for a win or possibly narrow defeat . The reward 2 chances to avoid relegation bottom of 12 teams only get one chance to avoid relegation do they deserve any other chances .
Another option best placed 3rd into 1/4 final proper
12th relegated . Other 3rd placed team play 11th or other group 6th in preliminary 1/4 final .
4th v 5th in preliminary 1/4 final .
Only 5 games for worst team no 2nd chances.

Formertownie (Wexford) - Posts: 305 - 02/09/2024 11:23:41    2567977

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I think the fact that we are just over half way through the championship and there is 5 tines the amount of discussion about the format than there is about the championship itself tells its own story.

It's a nonsense structure in reality, 8nweeks and 150 games to still have every team still in the championship where winning zero games still has you in as good a position as teams that have won 3 out of 5 of their group games.

tearintom (Wexford) - Posts: 1435 - 02/09/2024 12:44:23    2568003

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Replying To Viking66:  "Most of the clubs that I was talking to were either backing the HAC proposal before the meeting, or undecided. There were other options that clubs proposed and spoke for also.
The only reason there was a discussion at all was because people weren't happy with the status quo. If they were there wouldn't have been people proposing changes in the 1st place."
Little disingenuous to say people weren't happy with the status quo.

The two groups of six, with top four going through, operated every year from 2012 to 2019, with no calls for change.

Things had to operate differently in the Covid years (2020 and '21), but when two groups of six went back on the table for '22, there was overwhelming support for it. And then there were no calls to change it or tweak it until the HAC came in last year with an unexpected and novel proposal.

Seems generally accepted that people were sold on it on the night. Personally, I think they were sold a pup. I know you think differently.

But it's not a case that people weren't happy with the old way. It was more a case that they were just convinced to try something new.

Bit like say you're happy with your broadband provider. Then a salesperson calls to your door some day and offers you some sort of switcher deal to a different provider, and you decide to go with it. You weren't unhappy with your first provider. You just decided to try something else anyway.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2648 - 02/09/2024 12:48:15    2568007

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "Little disingenuous to say people weren't happy with the status quo.

The two groups of six, with top four going through, operated every year from 2012 to 2019, with no calls for change.

Things had to operate differently in the Covid years (2020 and '21), but when two groups of six went back on the table for '22, there was overwhelming support for it. And then there were no calls to change it or tweak it until the HAC came in last year with an unexpected and novel proposal.

Seems generally accepted that people were sold on it on the night. Personally, I think they were sold a pup. I know you think differently.

But it's not a case that people weren't happy with the old way. It was more a case that they were just convinced to try something new.

Bit like say you're happy with your broadband provider. Then a salesperson calls to your door some day and offers you some sort of switcher deal to a different provider, and you decide to go with it. You weren't unhappy with your first provider. You just decided to try something else anyway."
I think I've been pretty clear on this Pikeman, I've not made up my mind yet. It could be a whole litter of pups, but so far I've not seen any great difference to last year, except media coverage. Or lack of.
There were a good few other proposals to change the format/structure apart from the HACs. And it's not true there were none in the years previous, we proposed 4 groups of 4 ourselves.
Bottom line is this as regards the HACs proposal, there were no arguments with the formation of an HAC, or discontent with who is on it. If we aren't going to implement any of their proposals, or at least give them due consideration, then why are we wasting their time thinking about all this stuff?

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 14123 - 02/09/2024 15:02:15    2568050

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Replying To Viking66:  "I think I've been pretty clear on this Pikeman, I've not made up my mind yet. It could be a whole litter of pups, but so far I've not seen any great difference to last year, except media coverage. Or lack of.
There were a good few other proposals to change the format/structure apart from the HACs. And it's not true there were none in the years previous, we proposed 4 groups of 4 ourselves.
Bottom line is this as regards the HACs proposal, there were no arguments with the formation of an HAC, or discontent with who is on it. If we aren't going to implement any of their proposals, or at least give them due consideration, then why are we wasting their time thinking about all this stuff?"
With all due respect, I think you've missed the point fairly widely.

In fact, the very fact that a number of other alternative formats were put forward at different times (including your own), but that all were overwhelmingly lost, is living proof of how it's not the case that people "weren't happy the status quo". If they were unhappy with it and demanding change, there would have been change a long time ago.

More a case of despite the fact that people were happy with it, they were willing to give something else a go, since well-respected figures on the HAC came up with it and one of them put up a strong case for it.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2648 - 02/09/2024 15:29:43    2568055

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "With all due respect, I think you've missed the point fairly widely.

In fact, the very fact that a number of other alternative formats were put forward at different times (including your own), but that all were overwhelmingly lost, is living proof of how it's not the case that people "weren't happy the status quo". If they were unhappy with it and demanding change, there would have been change a long time ago.

More a case of despite the fact that people were happy with it, they were willing to give something else a go, since well-respected figures on the HAC came up with it and one of them put up a strong case for it."
"they were willing to give something else a go". Exactly my point. The HAC proposal got voted on and the majority won. I still don't agree that everyone was happy with the previous format. Only a majority of people.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 14123 - 02/09/2024 16:27:32    2568069

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "It'll definitely be 1st v 5th/6th, and 2nd v 3rd/4th. But not sure if it's to be an open draw, or a case of repeat pairings to be avoided where possible. Will try to find out."
The reward for coming first is in theory you play the second weakest of the six teams in the QF whereas in prior years it was the the 4th. The team in 2nd make really no difference as they would have played the 3rd anyway.
The team that comes 5th could benefit as they get another chance to play in the QF but they also could get relegated. The 6th team could get to a QF.

All said and done there are two winners in the above compared to last year. 1st and 6th. The team in 5th may think they now still have a chance at a QF but they also could get relegated - how may of the 5th place teams would role the dice if given that choice now.

zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 1904 - 02/09/2024 18:15:51    2568103

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Replying To Viking66:  ""they were willing to give something else a go". Exactly my point. The HAC proposal got voted on and the majority won. I still don't agree that everyone was happy with the previous format. Only a majority of people."
Turkeys don't vote for Christmas and clubs don't always vote for the best system. Someone proposed at least two better formats here but it's unlikely either would get voted in and I think someone said one was put forward before but no support. We have what we have and the real championship starts now.

wexfordwin (Wexford) - Posts: 188 - 02/09/2024 21:18:55    2568123

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Despite all the structure talk we are still gonna have a winner at the end of it,
These would be my predicted quarter finals if I have the motion right ??

Anne's v Cloughbawn/Rapps
Shels v Cloughbawn/Rapps
Harriers v Gorey
Martins v Ferns

WexMurph (Wexford) - Posts: 240 - 02/09/2024 21:20:37    2568124

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Replying To wexfordwin:  "Turkeys don't vote for Christmas and clubs don't always vote for the best system. Someone proposed at least two better formats here but it's unlikely either would get voted in and I think someone said one was put forward before but no support. We have what we have and the real championship starts now."
That's it.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 14123 - 03/09/2024 06:08:29    2568143

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Replying To WexMurph:  "Despite all the structure talk we are still gonna have a winner at the end of it,
These would be my predicted quarter finals if I have the motion right ??

Anne's v Cloughbawn/Rapps
Shels v Cloughbawn/Rapps
Harriers v Gorey
Martins v Ferns"
Okay, maybe time to move on all right!

Somebody asked a few days ago what the story will be with quarter-finals. Have had a look at the competition regulations that were sent to clubs earlier in the year, and it's the case that in the quarter-finals, repeat pairings will be avoided where possible.

However, the semi-finals will be an open draw, and repeat pairings will be allowed if the draw comes out that way.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2648 - 03/09/2024 08:28:37    2568150

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Replying To zinny:  "The reward for coming first is in theory you play the second weakest of the six teams in the QF whereas in prior years it was the the 4th. The team in 2nd make really no difference as they would have played the 3rd anyway.
The team that comes 5th could benefit as they get another chance to play in the QF but they also could get relegated. The 6th team could get to a QF.

All said and done there are two winners in the above compared to last year. 1st and 6th. The team in 5th may think they now still have a chance at a QF but they also could get relegated - how may of the 5th place teams would role the dice if given that choice now."
Great points made here. To answer the last part, very few of the 5th place teams would roll that dice.

Senior - Neither oulart or cloughbawn will win it out but after both recently coming up they will desperately want to avoid a relegation final, therefore both would happily end their year now in 5th like previous years I would imagine.

Intermediate - Gusserane and horeswood, same as above as neither would win it out and wouldn't want to go back down after both recently gaining promotion too after making great strides over recent times.

Intermediate A - Clongeen having recently gotten ptomoted too would happily take 5th and finish for the year there im sure but Adamstown perhaps are a little bit different after recently coming down perhaps they would feel they still have a chance of contesting.

Junior - Harriers , happy to finish out the year in 5th
marshalstown, maybe would happily roll the dice

junior A - oylegate and tara rocks more than happy to finish out the year 5th

So I would have it 2 or maybe 3 out of 10 5th placed teams that would roll that dice and go for a quarter final with relegation also on the line.

There are 6 teams who have no points after 5 championship games, any player or mentor would tell you themselves that you deserve to be in a relegation final if that happens. As said above the current system only benefits teams who come 1st and 6th, while also benefit the clubs and players who don't play football.

hurlin101 (Wexford) - Posts: 114 - 03/09/2024 08:55:01    2568153

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Replying To hurlin101:  "Great points made here. To answer the last part, very few of the 5th place teams would roll that dice.

Senior - Neither oulart or cloughbawn will win it out but after both recently coming up they will desperately want to avoid a relegation final, therefore both would happily end their year now in 5th like previous years I would imagine.

Intermediate - Gusserane and horeswood, same as above as neither would win it out and wouldn't want to go back down after both recently gaining promotion too after making great strides over recent times.

Intermediate A - Clongeen having recently gotten ptomoted too would happily take 5th and finish for the year there im sure but Adamstown perhaps are a little bit different after recently coming down perhaps they would feel they still have a chance of contesting.

Junior - Harriers , happy to finish out the year in 5th
marshalstown, maybe would happily roll the dice

junior A - oylegate and tara rocks more than happy to finish out the year 5th

So I would have it 2 or maybe 3 out of 10 5th placed teams that would roll that dice and go for a quarter final with relegation also on the line.

There are 6 teams who have no points after 5 championship games, any player or mentor would tell you themselves that you deserve to be in a relegation final if that happens. As said above the current system only benefits teams who come 1st and 6th, while also benefit the clubs and players who don't play football."
I'm pretty sure that Oulart will be hoping to have more of their injured lads back and make a push on. I think they would have fancied their chances of beating Ferns had they better subs to bring on, which they likely will have in 3 weeks time. If Cloughbawn have Flood back I'm sure they would fancy giving a QF a lash also.
Horeswood have actually been pretty good this year, and might make a semi final depending on the QF draw. Gusserane have got better as they got players back also.
I think Adamstown could go well in knockout, and would welcome the chance.
As regards the lower grades and the 2nd teams you have mentioned there, does it really matter whether they would take 5th or not? I'm pretty sure their clubs would base what they thought on the fortunes of their 1st teams.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 14123 - 03/09/2024 11:51:45    2568186

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Replying To hurlin101:  "Great points made here. To answer the last part, very few of the 5th place teams would roll that dice.

Senior - Neither oulart or cloughbawn will win it out but after both recently coming up they will desperately want to avoid a relegation final, therefore both would happily end their year now in 5th like previous years I would imagine.

Intermediate - Gusserane and horeswood, same as above as neither would win it out and wouldn't want to go back down after both recently gaining promotion too after making great strides over recent times.

Intermediate A - Clongeen having recently gotten ptomoted too would happily take 5th and finish for the year there im sure but Adamstown perhaps are a little bit different after recently coming down perhaps they would feel they still have a chance of contesting.

Junior - Harriers , happy to finish out the year in 5th
marshalstown, maybe would happily roll the dice

junior A - oylegate and tara rocks more than happy to finish out the year 5th

So I would have it 2 or maybe 3 out of 10 5th placed teams that would roll that dice and go for a quarter final with relegation also on the line.

There are 6 teams who have no points after 5 championship games, any player or mentor would tell you themselves that you deserve to be in a relegation final if that happens. As said above the current system only benefits teams who come 1st and 6th, while also benefit the clubs and players who don't play football."
The benefit to clubs who only play hurling is purely because they ended the split season. They would have still benefitted had they kept the old system with alternate blocks of fixtures.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 14123 - 03/09/2024 11:53:15    2568187

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Replying To Viking66:  "I'm pretty sure that Oulart will be hoping to have more of their injured lads back and make a push on. I think they would have fancied their chances of beating Ferns had they better subs to bring on, which they likely will have in 3 weeks time. If Cloughbawn have Flood back I'm sure they would fancy giving a QF a lash also.
Horeswood have actually been pretty good this year, and might make a semi final depending on the QF draw. Gusserane have got better as they got players back also.
I think Adamstown could go well in knockout, and would welcome the chance.
As regards the lower grades and the 2nd teams you have mentioned there, does it really matter whether they would take 5th or not? I'm pretty sure their clubs would base what they thought on the fortunes of their 1st teams."
Oulart were missing both Billy Dunne and Shaun Murphy against Ferns, and still gave it a good lash. If they can get those two back, I'd fancy them to give somebody else a rattle as well.

They've got three weeks to get them back for a preliminary quarter-final v the Rapps, but to be honest, unless the Rapps can really find something extra, I'd fancy Oulart to beat them even without those two players. And that would give them five weeks altogether for Murphy and Dunne to come back.

But at the risk of opening up that hornets nest again...isn't this further evidence of how the new system only really benefits the lower-down teams?

Take even the so-called benefit for a 1st-placed team of an "easier" quarter-final (against a team from 5th or 6th place, instead of a team from 4th). In senior, this could see them play either against a resurgent Oulart, or a Cloughbawn team who have already beaten a first-placed team. Any other year, Oulart and Cloughbawn would already be out of the championship, but now they could be sitting in there as potential banana skins.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2648 - 03/09/2024 12:47:36    2568202

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Replying To Viking66:  "I'm pretty sure that Oulart will be hoping to have more of their injured lads back and make a push on. I think they would have fancied their chances of beating Ferns had they better subs to bring on, which they likely will have in 3 weeks time. If Cloughbawn have Flood back I'm sure they would fancy giving a QF a lash also.
Horeswood have actually been pretty good this year, and might make a semi final depending on the QF draw. Gusserane have got better as they got players back also.
I think Adamstown could go well in knockout, and would welcome the chance.
As regards the lower grades and the 2nd teams you have mentioned there, does it really matter whether they would take 5th or not? I'm pretty sure their clubs would base what they thought on the fortunes of their 1st teams."
So in senior none will win it and to get over the PQF and avoid a regulation final they are relying on lads coming back from injury etc. Their panels are so thin that an injury in the first 5mins could see them in a relegation final. I struggle to see where the upside is.

zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 1904 - 03/09/2024 14:45:07    2568236

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