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Replying To Formertownie: "My thoughts are with the players and club men .
And the people who make the choices for them .
I got annoyed with people scoffing at young players wanting to have some down time mid season to live their youth all yo soon it's gone as well we know.
Short term gain as opposed to long term sustainability I think thats the choice . I m not saying I know the answers or how to convince others . But I will try come up with suggestions.
I just think we.are driving on and not seeing bigger picture. Not so bad if ur just one code but the dual player is getting flogged .
Maybe that's the underlying agenda . Make ur choice boys. It's gone that way at inter County and now with club teams training like inter County are they going to be forced to choose .
It will be a sad day for gaa in wexford if the club player has to choose one over the other for their playing career
I wonder if more choose football would the mindset change." I think if really pushed it would surprise many in the county how many players would choose football.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 14123 - 31/08/2024 07:45:51
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Replying To tearintom: "One thing I've learned from reading this thread is I've even more sympathy for our co board and others in trying to get proposals and ideas across in Wexford.
I mean getting our structures right is fundamental to our success and we have clubs taking it so seriously that they are sending lads in to vote with the remit of "shur whatever ye think yourself on the night there Pat!"
It seems people are happy enough to have lads hurling away in low pressure games a little above all county league in terms of real importance and wonder then how we struggle sometimes when the pressure comes on in inter County games, oh and while we are at it can we get a couple of weekends off to go on the lash at a music festival and other events because changing the entire GAA calendar to facilitate lads being able to plan breaks away etc isn't enough by all accounts!!
I do genuinely wonder how serious we are in wanting to compete in the county sometimes if I'm being honest." How about a simpler version of 4 groups of 4 then-
Groups decided by a draw with seeded teams based on previous year. Top 2 into QFs, 1st placed teams at home. Bottom 2 in each group into relegation quarter finals, 3rd placed teams at home. Subject to their home venue being "Championship" standard. If not then 1st and 3rd placed teams get to try pick/arrange an alternative suitable venue. All games will probably be meaningful. And there will be less games.
All clubs will get 4 games, half the clubs will get 5 games, and a quarter of the clubs will get 6 games.
Ok so you might get one or 2 one sided games in the group stage, but if the fancied team take their eye off the ball they could be shocked just the same. They won't be able just go through the motions knowing it doesn't matter if they lose, as instead of a QF they could end up in a relegation QF. So from the point of view of pre-championship, pre-game, and in-game, intensity, no club will be able to go at any game half-hearted from the start.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 14123 - 31/08/2024 08:24:29
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Replying To tearintom: "One thing I've learned from reading this thread is I've even more sympathy for our co board and others in trying to get proposals and ideas across in Wexford.
I mean getting our structures right is fundamental to our success and we have clubs taking it so seriously that they are sending lads in to vote with the remit of "shur whatever ye think yourself on the night there Pat!"
It seems people are happy enough to have lads hurling away in low pressure games a little above all county league in terms of real importance and wonder then how we struggle sometimes when the pressure comes on in inter County games, oh and while we are at it can we get a couple of weekends off to go on the lash at a music festival and other events because changing the entire GAA calendar to facilitate lads being able to plan breaks away etc isn't enough by all accounts!!
I do genuinely wonder how serious we are in wanting to compete in the county sometimes if I'm being honest." How about a simpler version of 4 groups of 4 then-
Groups decided by a draw with seeded teams based on previous year. Top 2 into QFs, 1st placed teams at home. Bottom 2 in each group into relegation quarter finals, 3rd placed teams at home. Subject to their home venue being "Championship" standard. If not then 1st and 3rd placed teams get to try pick/arrange an alternative suitable venue. All games will probably be meaningful. And there will be less games.
All clubs will get 4 games, half the clubs will get 5 games, and a quarter of the clubs will get 6 games.
Ok so you might get one or 2 one sided games in the group stage, but if the fancied team take their eye off the ball they could be shocked just the same. They won't be able just go through the motions knowing it doesn't matter if they lose, as instead of a QF they could end up in a relegation QF. So from the point of view of pre-championship, pre-game, and in-game, intensity, no club will be able to go at any game half-hearted from the start.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 14123 - 31/08/2024 08:25:21
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Replying To Viking66: " Replying To Pikeman96: "Just going back to this one. You first claim:
Our club didn't send me in to "make my mind up on the night"
But later in the same post, you say:
I was told told to listen carefully to it. Then decide on the format/structure to vote for
And in your post back on page 11, you say:
I got told to listen to the presentation, and arguments for and against, and make up my mind based on this
How can you claim that your club didn't send you in to decide on the night?????" I'm not claiming that the club didn't send me in to make my mind up on the night. I'm disagreeing with the inference from you and others that we didn't consider all the proposals at some length. "Ah sure we'll just let Paddy decide" or similar quotes are just not the case at all. I've explained to you before the format/structure we proposed a couple of years ago. As you said yourself in a previous post any proposal with less games/teams per group gets summarily shot down by a large majority. As regards all the 6 team group proposals, we didn't feel that any of them are likely to raise the standard of club hurling, or improve the standard of club hurlers with a view to aiding the county team. So what we decided was to listen to Adrian Fenlons presentation and vote, or even not vote at all, based on that. Which is completely different to what you and others keep claiming or implying, which is that our club didn't take the whole thing seriously, that we couldnt be bothered, or didn't want the county team to be successful. Bottom line still is for me that it's a red herring. Whatever format or structure we adopt is not going to make the blindest bit of difference to our intercounty fortunes. And like I've been consistently saying on this thread for a number of years there are too many games, which gives rise to too many meaningless ones. And that goes for club and intercounty."
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 14123 - 31/08/2024 09:29:45
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- St. Anne's v Glynn. Anne's sailing into 1/4 finals topping the group.
- Naomh Éanna v crossabeg. Only 1 winner here.
- Ferns v oulart. Oulart to spring a surprise.
- St. Martin's v rapps. Rapps will finish bottom of table with no wins.
- Shels v Oylegate. Shels but very close.
- Harriers v Cloughbawn. Flood is out for the medium term I'm hearing. Will swing the balance to harries for the win.
Yellowhelmet (Australia) - Posts: 117 - 31/08/2024 09:55:42
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Replying To ElGranSenor: "There aren't 16 good enough teams to compete at Senior level, 8 would be too small a number, and any other number than 12 would be very difficult to organise
I have two different ideas:
(a) Two groups of 6; 1st goes straight through to the SFs; 2nd plays 3rd in the other group and vice-versa in the QFs; 4th and 5th are done for the year; 6th plays off in the relegation final
Rationale here is that coming 1st gives you a bye straight to the SFs (A bit like winning Leinster puts you in an AISF) and that whoever comes 4th probably lost more in the group stages than they won so they don't really deserve to be in the knock-out stages
(b) Top 6 teams in Senior A and next 6 teams in Senior B; Top two in Senior A go straight to the SFs; 3rd and 4th in Senior A play 1st and 2nd in Senior B; 5th and 6th in Senior B play off in the relegation final
Whoever comes 6th in Senior A gets "relegated" to Senior B the next year and whoever comes 1st in Senior B gets "promoted" to Senior B the next year
Can still win the Championship from Senior B although can get relegated to Intermediate from Senior B whereas you can't in Senior A" Just an observation on b, only 3 different teams have won the Limerick senior championship since 2009. Only 5 players from those teams started against Cork in the AISF, with a further 4 on the bench.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 14123 - 31/08/2024 10:01:08
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Replying To Viking66: " Replying To Pikeman96: "Just going back to this one. You first claim:
Our club didn't send me in to "make my mind up on the night"
But later in the same post, you say:
I was told told to listen carefully to it. Then decide on the format/structure to vote for
And in your post back on page 11, you say:
I got told to listen to the presentation, and arguments for and against, and make up my mind based on this
How can you claim that your club didn't send you in to decide on the night?????" Maybe I phrased that first quote badly and left out an important word. "Our club didn't JUST send me in to make my mind up on the night" is what I meant by that first line."
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2648 - 31/08/2024 12:41:09
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@Viking - also by the way, just to give an answer to a question you put to somebody else, about why his club decided to vote against the new format before even hearing Adrian Fenlon or anyone else from the HAC speak on the night. I obviously can't answer for him, but here's why my club decided in advance not to support it no matter what was said:
Like you, we thought that any talk of it somehow improving the overall standard of hurling was a red herring. So it therefore instead became a question of whether or not a format where everybody would go through to the knock-out stages would be a good championship system. We decided that it's not.
Just to expand on what somebody else said a little earlier - club hurling championships (Senior down to Junior A) started on the first weekend of July, with 60 teams involved. By tomorrow evening, nine weeks later, there'll have been 150 matches played, and 60 teams still in the championship. We just don't think that's a good system.
We also didn't think that any system is a good one where a team could lose five out of five group games but still go on and become county champions. People might say that'll hardly happen but it once happened in Offaly, when Tullamore won senior hurling in 2009 after first losing all their group games. They changed their system the following year.
Finally, we didn't like the system of 3rd playing 4th in preliminary quarter-finals. We get the idea is that those teams would already be safe from relegation. But our alternative suggestion would have been 3rd v 6th and 4th v 5th, with the losers of those games playing relegation semi-finals, before losers there went on to relegation finals. This would have provided another game for two more clubs (albeit a relegation semi-final that nobody would want to be in), and considering the idea of the proposal was to give another game to a number of clubs, we thought this would have made sense if the format was accepted anyway.
That was our thinking, and we didn't think anything that could said be on the night would counteract it, so our delegate was mandated to vote "no". Which he did.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2648 - 31/08/2024 14:36:01
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Replying To Yellowhelmet: "- St. Anne's v Glynn. Anne's sailing into 1/4 finals topping the group.
- Naomh Éanna v crossabeg. Only 1 winner here.
- Ferns v oulart. Oulart to spring a surprise.
- St. Martin's v rapps. Rapps will finish bottom of table with no wins.
- Shels v Oylegate. Shels but very close.
- Harriers v Cloughbawn. Flood is out for the medium term I'm hearing. Will swing the balance to harries for the win." Flood broke his hand. Hope it's not too bad of a break.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 14123 - 31/08/2024 15:36:46
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Replying To Viking66: "Flood broke his hand. Hope it's not too bad of a break." Poor lad has absolutely zero luck
Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 3223 - 31/08/2024 16:38:20
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Replying To Doylerwex: "Poor lad has absolutely zero luck" Yep. Was jumping to catch a valley and got a flick of a hurl. Broke a finger.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 14123 - 31/08/2024 21:17:53
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Replying To Pikeman96: "@Viking - also by the way, just to give an answer to a question you put to somebody else, about why his club decided to vote against the new format before even hearing Adrian Fenlon or anyone else from the HAC speak on the night. I obviously can't answer for him, but here's why my club decided in advance not to support it no matter what was said:
Like you, we thought that any talk of it somehow improving the overall standard of hurling was a red herring. So it therefore instead became a question of whether or not a format where everybody would go through to the knock-out stages would be a good championship system. We decided that it's not.
Just to expand on what somebody else said a little earlier - club hurling championships (Senior down to Junior A) started on the first weekend of July, with 60 teams involved. By tomorrow evening, nine weeks later, there'll have been 150 matches played, and 60 teams still in the championship. We just don't think that's a good system.
We also didn't think that any system is a good one where a team could lose five out of five group games but still go on and become county champions. People might say that'll hardly happen but it once happened in Offaly, when Tullamore won senior hurling in 2009 after first losing all their group games. They changed their system the following year.
Finally, we didn't like the system of 3rd playing 4th in preliminary quarter-finals. We get the idea is that those teams would already be safe from relegation. But our alternative suggestion would have been 3rd v 6th and 4th v 5th, with the losers of those games playing relegation semi-finals, before losers there went on to relegation finals. This would have provided another game for two more clubs (albeit a relegation semi-final that nobody would want to be in), and considering the idea of the proposal was to give another game to a number of clubs, we thought this would have made sense if the format was accepted anyway.
That was our thinking, and we didn't think anything that could said be on the night would counteract it, so our delegate was mandated to vote "no". Which he did." Fair enough Pikeman. Every club is different.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 14123 - 31/08/2024 21:20:30
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No real surprises yesterday with the Intermediate final group Standings. James continued their excellent form by topping their respective groups. If they can avoid each other in the semis you'd have to fancy both to reach the final. Fethard just getting into 4th by scoring a goal last minute of the game. If they can get players back from injury they might feature in the shake up. Think they will be happy to play Craanford. Blackwater impressive against a poor Taghmon team so themselves and Askamore should be a close one. I would fancy Horeswood to beat Taghmon while Tara Rocks have been equally as poor, the alternative weekends means they were always going to focus on football again so fully expect them to play to be in the relegation final also. A toss between both to see who goes down.
Think intermediate A is wide open, any number of teams can win it. As posted here before great to see Geraldine's competing again, Monageer also 5 from 5 wins, expect Liam mellows to be their or about again while Cushinstown should also run close. Disappointing for Adamstown or get 5 points and still not be in the top 4 as just 2 points got St. Mary's into top 4 in group b
alwaysasub (Wexford) - Posts: 451 - 01/09/2024 10:28:15
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Game 1 in new ross. Harriers came good in last 10 mins. Cloughbawn will be disappointed with their 2nd half.
Yellowhelmet (Australia) - Posts: 117 - 01/09/2024 15:31:52
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Replying To Yellowhelmet: "Game 1 in new ross. Harriers came good in last 10 mins. Cloughbawn will be disappointed with their 2nd half." That's a good win for Faythe Harriers seem to be close til final few minutes. Would fancy them to beat Glynn Barntown aswell
WexMurph (Wexford) - Posts: 240 - 01/09/2024 18:03:28
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Replying To WexMurph: "That's a good win for Faythe Harriers seem to be close til final few minutes. Would fancy them to beat Glynn Barntown aswell" Was in Ross. Thought Barntown looked pretty poor tbh. Lacking speed and hurling. Eoin Ryan stuck to Conor Mahoney like glue. Dee O got on ball, especially in the 2nd half. Moran caught a few high balls, though it was disappointing how few good low balls were played Mogies way to run out on to. Wasn't a great game. Expect Annes to be a lot better in the QF. Hard to see Barntown winning next time out, although they might sneak a result by just being very physical against the Harriers.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 14123 - 01/09/2024 19:02:53
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Replying To alwaysasub: "No real surprises yesterday with the Intermediate final group Standings. James continued their excellent form by topping their respective groups. If they can avoid each other in the semis you'd have to fancy both to reach the final. Fethard just getting into 4th by scoring a goal last minute of the game. If they can get players back from injury they might feature in the shake up. Think they will be happy to play Craanford. Blackwater impressive against a poor Taghmon team so themselves and Askamore should be a close one. I would fancy Horeswood to beat Taghmon while Tara Rocks have been equally as poor, the alternative weekends means they were always going to focus on football again so fully expect them to play to be in the relegation final also. A toss between both to see who goes down.
Think intermediate A is wide open, any number of teams can win it. As posted here before great to see Geraldine's competing again, Monageer also 5 from 5 wins, expect Liam mellows to be their or about again while Cushinstown should also run close. Disappointing for Adamstown or get 5 points and still not be in the top 4 as just 2 points got St. Mary's into top 4 in group b" Fancy Blackwater to beat Askamore if Askamore don't have their injured lads back. Likewise if we don't have our injured lads back I think Horeswood will be too strong for us. Not sure what's happening up in Kilanerin but their lads aren't in great form hurling or football. Can see Gusserane beating the Rocks. Fethard don't generally go well in the group stages any year, I expect them to win next time out. And be hard to beat after that.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 14123 - 01/09/2024 19:07:55
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Replying To Pikeman96: "@Viking - also by the way, just to give an answer to a question you put to somebody else, about why his club decided to vote against the new format before even hearing Adrian Fenlon or anyone else from the HAC speak on the night. I obviously can't answer for him, but here's why my club decided in advance not to support it no matter what was said:
Like you, we thought that any talk of it somehow improving the overall standard of hurling was a red herring. So it therefore instead became a question of whether or not a format where everybody would go through to the knock-out stages would be a good championship system. We decided that it's not.
Just to expand on what somebody else said a little earlier - club hurling championships (Senior down to Junior A) started on the first weekend of July, with 60 teams involved. By tomorrow evening, nine weeks later, there'll have been 150 matches played, and 60 teams still in the championship. We just don't think that's a good system.
We also didn't think that any system is a good one where a team could lose five out of five group games but still go on and become county champions. People might say that'll hardly happen but it once happened in Offaly, when Tullamore won senior hurling in 2009 after first losing all their group games. They changed their system the following year.
Finally, we didn't like the system of 3rd playing 4th in preliminary quarter-finals. We get the idea is that those teams would already be safe from relegation. But our alternative suggestion would have been 3rd v 6th and 4th v 5th, with the losers of those games playing relegation semi-finals, before losers there went on to relegation finals. This would have provided another game for two more clubs (albeit a relegation semi-final that nobody would want to be in), and considering the idea of the proposal was to give another game to a number of clubs, we thought this would have made sense if the format was accepted anyway.
That was our thinking, and we didn't think anything that could said be on the night would counteract it, so our delegate was mandated to vote "no". Which he did." I presume the quarter finals are an open draw of 1st placed teams v winners of 5v6 games and 2nd v 3v4 games?
camánouttathat (Wexford) - Posts: 60 - 01/09/2024 19:54:57
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Replying To camánouttathat: "I presume the quarter finals are an open draw of 1st placed teams v winners of 5v6 games and 2nd v 3v4 games?" It'll definitely be 1st v 5th/6th, and 2nd v 3rd/4th. But not sure if it's to be an open draw, or a case of repeat pairings to be avoided where possible. Will try to find out.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2648 - 01/09/2024 21:22:29
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Now that the league sudecif championship is done . Do ye still think it's a workable format .
My thoughts are takingʻ harriers and ferns as an example coming third in league section and would fancy them to beat glynn and oylgate , . But if they do they will play one of the 2 2nd place teams in the 1/4 final proper the very same as if there was no preliminary 1/4 final. But could also be out before 1/4 final where 2 of 5th and 6th place teams guaranteed 2 1/4 final spots.
Just does nt sit right . There no way in my opinion 6th should be allowed to stay in championship . And 3rd should nt be in position to be knocked out before 1/4 final . Just my opinion
Formertownie (Wexford) - Posts: 305 - 01/09/2024 22:13:10
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