National Forum

Some Updates On The Football Review

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "I reckon a valid argument against any such proposal is proper enforcement, when you consider it would have to go all the way down a Junior B match with a well-intentioned but limited ability referee, played on a poorly-lined club pitch on a murky evening.

With all due respect, if your location really is USA, I'm guessing you don't see as many "grassroots" matches as the rest of us, and therefore don't have the same level of appreciation of how difficult such things would be to actually put into practice."
I emigrated to the US but was born and grew up in Ireland, leaving at age 24 - so I can relate to the murky field way back then - I am assuming the situation hasn't changed much. I relate well with what you say.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2823 - 08/08/2024 20:09:53    2564305

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@Kickitout (Galway) - Posts: 909 - 08/08/2024 16:41:50 2564288

Many would not agree with that level of negativity - when any organisation fails to find the right solutions, it tries again (like the GAA) - giving up is not the answer.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2823 - 08/08/2024 20:15:21    2564306

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What are the reasons for not considering the obvious solution and change senior football to 13 aside ?
4 less players on the pitch will create more gaps and spaces to attack ?

On the subject of a 2 point arc, why did they pick 40m? Why not 45m arc to the 20m line ? On principle I agree with 2 point award for long range shots and 4 points for a goal, as it means a team will need to set up a blanket outside the 45m line which will create gaps in behind for over the top passes and probably make the blanket defense tactic redundant.

I expect thet FRC will change the mark to a clear high catch above the head caught inside the 2Om line from a kickpass outside the 45m line and the umpire signals a mark (not the ref) but attacking team is given automatic advantage to get a score from open play, if a score from open play is not achieved, referee awards a mark.

Tirchonailabu56 (Donegal) - Posts: 23 - 08/08/2024 21:07:07    2564314

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"The four points for the goal and two points for outside the 40 (arc) would definitely benefit our game and make it a better spectacle. Dissent moved from 13 metres to 30 or 50 metres definitely would work in our game, it would stop players trying to slow it up and throwing the ball away.

"You'll think twice now about committing a foul or trying to slow a game down after a free.

"The last one I would look forward to is the three players inside as well. In theory, the ball should be moving much quicker and (there should be) less congestion back in opposition defences."

Peter Canavan seemed in favour of the above changes. The three forwards up should lessen congestion inside the defensive 45, especially if 15 aside is to be retained.
The two pointer does bring in a different dynamic. Creating two point opportunities or possibly creating goal scoring opportunities. The tweak to the advance mark seems an improvement if it is from kicks outside the 45m to inside the 20m. The advantage of being able to go for goal should see more goal chances being taken on.
In the 4:2:1 suggestion, is 4 points enough for a goal? Should it be more than double a two pointer to retain significance? Not to be splitting hairs but 5:2:1 possibly?
Two 3 pointers in rugby are less than a converted 7. Rugby teams are turning down 3 pointers to create 7 point opportunities. The converted try is one point more than two penalties. 3 points for a goal is currently 1 point more than two single points.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8161 - 08/08/2024 22:58:26    2564326

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As Pat Spillane rightly said in his newspaper column.. The rules committee have some job of work to try and sort out the mess that is Gaelic football at present… it's totally unwatchable..!

ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 2729 - 09/08/2024 07:09:48    2564331

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@legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8148 - 08/08/2024 22:58:26 2564326

5:2:1 - it has merit, given goals are less frequent - but I'm not sure if I prefer 4:2:1.

50m or 30m penalty - is the FRC thinking of two infringement levels or trying to decide on keeping one?

45-20 kick - would you like to require this as well before any "inside the 20" point is eligible to be scored?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2823 - 09/08/2024 14:12:39    2564400

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Replying To omahant:  "@legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8148 - 08/08/2024 22:58:26 2564326

5:2:1 - it has merit, given goals are less frequent - but I'm not sure if I prefer 4:2:1.

50m or 30m penalty - is the FRC thinking of two infringement levels or trying to decide on keeping one?

45-20 kick - would you like to require this as well before any "inside the 20" point is eligible to be scored?"
My understanding is that the attacking mark is essentially the 45-20 you're calling it. They can take an advantage and go for goal. If the advantage doesn't work out, they go back for a point scoring opportunity.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8161 - 09/08/2024 15:44:36    2564431

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Replying To legendzxix:  "My understanding is that the attacking mark is essentially the 45-20 you're calling it. They can take an advantage and go for goal. If the advantage doesn't work out, they go back for a point scoring opportunity."
Yes, I am aware of that amendment to the advanced mark (and I like it).

I'm asking about my own proposed "invention" - a kick requirement from outside the 45 to inside the 20 before a point can be allowed inside the 20 (I'm just trying to encourage more kicking).

Separately, without "my" 45-20 kick, a point can also be scored from between the 20 and the arc.

Are you ok with the FRC arc as opposed to a straight line (rectangular zone)?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2823 - 10/08/2024 13:40:25    2564530

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Replying To omahant:  "Yes, I am aware of that amendment to the advanced mark (and I like it).

I'm asking about my own proposed "invention" - a kick requirement from outside the 45 to inside the 20 before a point can be allowed inside the 20 (I'm just trying to encourage more kicking).

Separately, without "my" 45-20 kick, a point can also be scored from between the 20 and the arc.

Are you ok with the FRC arc as opposed to a straight line (rectangular zone)?"
I don't see a kick from outside the 45 being required before scoring a point inside the 20.
I am ok with the suggested arc. I know it is a divisive one. I'm intrigued by the dynamic of working two pointers or else creating a goal scoring opportunity. That's why I would side with an increased value on a goal.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8161 - 10/08/2024 14:57:26    2564534

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Great article on the Independent today by Eamonn Sweeney about the demise of the football Championship in comparison to what's going on in hurling…. yet for some unknown reason clowns like that fool from Monaghan ( Orielsman or something ) thinks there's absolutely nothing wrong with football and everyone else is wrong…. Surely everyone can't be wrong and him right… a pure case of delusion…!!

ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 2729 - 11/08/2024 12:39:10    2564586

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If you looked at the women's finals last weekend you could see players who aren't afraid to kick the ball and make mistakes in doing so. It was great exciting viewing. Until they ban the endless round of handpassing back and forth in the mens game then any other rule is pointless and irrelevant. Or indeed until a team decides to play that way and ignore the 'systems and structures' other teams have in place and play their own game.

eslinchickenmaryland (Leitrim) - Posts: 224 - 11/08/2024 12:51:22    2564589

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Any change that improve the game has 2 be welcomed but I think they have done way 2 much messing with rules and even the way they run the cometions changing ever few years also and new rules brough in will be also brough into club matches from underage all way to adult level which mighr prove a struggle,, also can't really understand why people Keep compare hurling and football they 2 completely different games one played with a Hurley one without a hurling ball can be hit over hundred yards completely mad comparing them it's same as compare rugby and soccer ,, also the way hurling championship is run different, very few miss matches as onlt 2 province play competitive and 2 non Leinster teams play in there championship,,

Kickitout (Galway) - Posts: 928 - 11/08/2024 13:45:12    2564590

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Football needs surgery. The hurling and football finals made that blatantly obvious for anyone with their head stuck in the sand. People are losing interest in going to club games. The boring defensive blanket is a turn off.
Rugby have brought in attacking rules. Some football changes haven't worked. It is important that the next changes bring back attacking football.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8161 - 11/08/2024 14:05:52    2564593

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Football needs surgery. The hurling and football finals made that blatantly obvious for anyone with their head stuck in the sand. People are losing interest in going to club games. The boring defensive blanket is a turn off.
Rugby have brought in attacking rules. Some football changes haven't worked. It is important that the next changes bring back attacking football."
A simple rule like requiring an inter-zone kick pass would put the "old style" distanced kick and contested ball back in the game.

My suggestion:
Use the 45s & 65s to divide the middle third into Zones 2, 3 & 4 - with Zone 1 (behind own 45) and Zone 5 (beyond attacking 45).

The defensive team has a choice (one of two required) - kick from z1 to z3 (midfield or beyond) OR z2 to z4 (e.g. soloing across own 65 is a violation, with conceded free at midfield - or better, to make it really effective, maybe the attacking 20 for a likely score). Maybe a time limit on "didling and dawdling" as well before the kick (say 30 seconds, "unscientifically" called by ref for "apparent" keep ball).

Turning over the ball in z3, z4 or z5 does not require the kick (just play as usual).

Would it bring back man-to-man marking? - having forwards outnumbered against a blanket gets a team nowhere - and the defence would concede 20-metre frees all day by not finding a receiver down field.

Would it work - not too complicated?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2823 - 11/08/2024 16:00:38    2564606

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Replying To omahant:  "A simple rule like requiring an inter-zone kick pass would put the "old style" distanced kick and contested ball back in the game.

My suggestion:
Use the 45s & 65s to divide the middle third into Zones 2, 3 & 4 - with Zone 1 (behind own 45) and Zone 5 (beyond attacking 45).

The defensive team has a choice (one of two required) - kick from z1 to z3 (midfield or beyond) OR z2 to z4 (e.g. soloing across own 65 is a violation, with conceded free at midfield - or better, to make it really effective, maybe the attacking 20 for a likely score). Maybe a time limit on "didling and dawdling" as well before the kick (say 30 seconds, "unscientifically" called by ref for "apparent" keep ball).

Turning over the ball in z3, z4 or z5 does not require the kick (just play as usual).

Would it bring back man-to-man marking? - having forwards outnumbered against a blanket gets a team nowhere - and the defence would concede 20-metre frees all day by not finding a receiver down field.

Would it work - not too complicated?"
Any rule changes need to be straightforward with explanation at a minimum.
The 40m arc might be used for minimum distance for kickouts from the the 20m line. It will be a well used arc if that the case. Two point zone to one point zone divider and minimum distance for kickouts.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8161 - 11/08/2024 19:29:25    2564640

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Replying To Kickitout:  "Any change that improve the game has 2 be welcomed but I think they have done way 2 much messing with rules and even the way they run the cometions changing ever few years also and new rules brough in will be also brough into club matches from underage all way to adult level which mighr prove a struggle,, also can't really understand why people Keep compare hurling and football they 2 completely different games one played with a Hurley one without a hurling ball can be hit over hundred yards completely mad comparing them it's same as compare rugby and soccer ,, also the way hurling championship is run different, very few miss matches as onlt 2 province play competitive and 2 non Leinster teams play in there championship,,"
They need to run specific competitions whixh are high level invluding inter county level players for a long term period to properly trial new rules.

You can't look at rule changes and go look t how it may affect und3r 12 so we can't do it. You have to treat age grade levels different to adult.

Hurling is different but it rightfully has a proper tiered system and structure that badly needs to happen in gaelic

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3624 - 11/08/2024 20:42:15    2564654

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Replying To KillingFields:  "They need to run specific competitions whixh are high level invluding inter county level players for a long term period to properly trial new rules.

You can't look at rule changes and go look t how it may affect und3r 12 so we can't do it. You have to treat age grade levels different to adult.

Hurling is different but it rightfully has a proper tiered system and structure that badly needs to happen in gaelic"
The quality of football being served up is terrible. The boring blanket defence has taken over. The FRC have a lot of surgery to carry out.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8161 - 12/08/2024 09:16:41    2564698

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@legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8157 - 10/08/2024 14:57:26

Yes, as you said, in Rugby Union a converted try is worth a point more than two penalties (5+2 > 2x3).

Likewise in American Football, a converted touchdown is worth more than two field goals (6+1 > 2x3).

So a case can be made for a 5-pts goal. I think the FRC initially considered it, but felt it might make the game more defensive - striking the right balance is preferable, whatever that may be.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2823 - 12/08/2024 12:17:12    2564742

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The quality of football being served up is terrible. The boring blanket defence has taken over. The FRC have a lot of surgery to carry out."
I like the "keep 3 up" but why not "keep 3 back" as well? - so "3-on-3", say inside each 45 - a "3-8-3" formation - or for less midfield crowding, make it "4-6-4" (violations only cited when the ball enters the 45 - an Offside Rule makes monitoring easier, more manageable).

As proposed, my understanding is that the permitted formation has gone from 14-0-0 to 11-0-3 (still awful).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2823 - 12/08/2024 12:33:24    2564747

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Replying To omahant:  "I like the "keep 3 up" but why not "keep 3 back" as well? - so "3-on-3", say inside each 45 - a "3-8-3" formation - or for less midfield crowding, make it "4-6-4" (violations only cited when the ball enters the 45 - an Offside Rule makes monitoring easier, more manageable).

As proposed, my understanding is that the permitted formation has gone from 14-0-0 to 11-0-3 (still awful)."
It is keep three forward and keep three back. Most just abbreviate by saying keep three forward. They must have identified that it works best at cutting congestion in the defensive 45.
Interesting that 5 points for a goal might lead to more defensive play. Changing the rules is like whack a mole!
A lot of the proposed rules have merit to improve the attacking quality of the game.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8161 - 13/08/2024 12:21:44    2564935

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