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Does Ulster Championship Benefit Ulster Teams?

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Replying To shaggykev:  "Grade one trolling there.

Kerry would win about 2-3 over 10 years and Dublin maybe 4-5. If neither side played any games at home, it is Ulster after all, then you'd see Dublin & Kerry out on their ear in the quarter finals plenty of times.

Ulster is the best championship by a margin. Connacht has three evenly matched sides but it suffers from inbalance in fixtures. But yes Ulster is not helping Ulster teams win All Irelands and the new system will make it even worse.

However Ulster teams know when they win it all, its because they deserved it. Can never say the same for Dublin or Kerry."
Exactly right. The point about the Ulster championship is that, to survive it, teams need to be firing on all cylinders from early in the season. By contrast, Dublin and Kerry can afford to treat their provincial championships as a glorified warm up, and pace themselves accordingly. Neither would win as much of they had to seriously shape up from much earlier in the season, and to be in a competition where most teams believe they can beat anybody on any given day, regardless of the prior form book. Further, as with counties where one club dominates, provinces with a dominant single county have a major advantage in that their squads know they will always be there or thereabouts (great for squad building), and they have that invaluable continuity of experience.

A soccer world cup type structure with 4 pools of 8 teams, would be much fairer all round.

And of course the Ulster c'ship is of questionable benefit for Ulster teams, in terms of how it causes Ulster teams to peak too early, and to invest too much in the provincial. He's right on that. I mean, the Kerry subs would win this year's Munster final. They could rest the Cliffords and still win. Luxuries like that are unimaginable in Ulster.

The major aspect in its favour is it's a shot at glory for teams who might not win an AI. And it has an un-matched intensity.
As a fan, some of the best and worst days of my life have been in Clones …

points50swiththeargyllsonthewrongfeet (Tyrone) - Posts: 274 - 30/04/2024 23:50:59    2542117

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Replying To MesAmis:  "No way Dublin would win 10 in a row in Ulster.

The idea that we wouldn't have been caught in Clones, Celtic Pk, Ballybofey etc over the years is ludicrous imo.

Had Jim Gavin's Dubs been in Ulster I think they'd have won a few titles to be fair but wouldn't have done what they've done in Leinster."
Doing well in Ulster (and Connacht) doesn't serve teams well in the long run.
Tyrone do better in All Ireland when they exit Ulster early.

Dublin would win 10 in a row in any provincial Championship where they are allowed to play all their matches at home.

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1197 - 01/05/2024 04:04:49    2542128

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Replying To Temple56:  "Dublin 4/5? Are you mad?
They won six All Irelands in row and no one in Ulster got near them in that time!
Dublin would have won the last 10 Ulster's at a canter. No Ulster team have beat Dublin in championship since 2014!
It's not nice to hear because yee up in Ulster think it's a great competition which it is! However, if Dublin were in it over the last 10 years it would be in the same position as Leinster at the moment"
Your posting absolute nonsense. Dublin won All Ireland's in a row because they only had to peak for a few weeks during the year. In Ulster teams have to be competitive far earlier and teams in Ulster don't have the luxury of using their provisional championship as challenge matches to get up to speed when the real competitive matches come along.

Scenicparish (Donegal) - Posts: 408 - 01/05/2024 09:08:49    2542147

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Replying To tirawleybaron:  "Doing well in Ulster (and Connacht) doesn't serve teams well in the long run.
Tyrone do better in All Ireland when they exit Ulster early.

Dublin would win 10 in a row in any provincial Championship where they are allowed to play all their matches at home."
I don't think Ulster counties would play the majority of their games against us in Croke Park.

Leinster counties choose to play Dublin in Croker, this shouldn't be forgotten. There are delegates on the Leinster Council from the 12 Leinster counties. That shouldn't be forgotten. If the other 11 counties wanted to make Dublin play every single Leinster Championship game away from Croke Park they could.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13779 - 01/05/2024 10:36:10    2542174

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Replying To points50swiththeargyllsonthewrongfeet:  "Exactly right. The point about the Ulster championship is that, to survive it, teams need to be firing on all cylinders from early in the season. By contrast, Dublin and Kerry can afford to treat their provincial championships as a glorified warm up, and pace themselves accordingly. Neither would win as much of they had to seriously shape up from much earlier in the season, and to be in a competition where most teams believe they can beat anybody on any given day, regardless of the prior form book. Further, as with counties where one club dominates, provinces with a dominant single county have a major advantage in that their squads know they will always be there or thereabouts (great for squad building), and they have that invaluable continuity of experience.

A soccer world cup type structure with 4 pools of 8 teams, would be much fairer all round.

And of course the Ulster c'ship is of questionable benefit for Ulster teams, in terms of how it causes Ulster teams to peak too early, and to invest too much in the provincial. He's right on that. I mean, the Kerry subs would win this year's Munster final. They could rest the Cliffords and still win. Luxuries like that are unimaginable in Ulster.

The major aspect in its favour is it's a shot at glory for teams who might not win an AI. And it has an un-matched intensity.
As a fan, some of the best and worst days of my life have been in Clones …"
Well said.

Some mighty days in Clones celebrating big wins and some absolutely horrendous ones as well.
Losing to Tyrone in 2016 was a sickener. That was the day Cavanagh and Harte scored two monster points to claw it away from us right at the death. Losing to Derry in 2022 AET was equally as bad.

Look Dublin and Kerry are obviously great teams and would ahve won plenty of Ulsters if involved. But the idea that they'd romp to 10 in a row is just not credible. It simply wouldn't happen regardless of what their records are against Ulster teams in the last 10 years in the AI series. At some point after maybe 2 or even 3 in a row, they'd be drawn away to Tyrone or Donegal for example, turn up not quite at the races and be beaten by the ravenous home team.

As others have said already, a lot of it comes down to how teams prepare themselves and plan their training blocks.
No harm to the other Leinster counties, but Dublin simply do not need to go beyond 3rd gear, if even that, to win Leinster.
Whilst at the same time of the year, teams up north with designs on winning Ulster, need to be at, or very close to peak condition. Disregarding these facts loses any argument.

Lockjaw (Donegal) - Posts: 9518 - 01/05/2024 11:32:54    2542195

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Is the the Ulster Championship a good competition ? Yes, most competitive Provincial Championship for many years.

Are the games exciting? Not always exciting, games are usually tight though, very little between the top 7 teams.

If Kerry or Dublin were in Ulster the last 10 years would they be both being going for 10 in a row? No, Dublin would give it a rattle, but I think it would upset their handy run in the All Ireland, as 3 or 4 rough matches begins to take its toll.
Kerry definitely not, remove David Clifford and they don't stand out from the other top 7 or 8 sides.

In the last 10 years since Donegal shocked Dublin in the All Ireland semi final only one team from Ulster have beat either a Kerry or Dublin in championship and that was Tyrone in 2021 when there was no QFs. What does this say?
That if Ulster teams had the same level of funding as Dublin, Kerry & Mayo that we could consistently be at the top every year. Do you think Dublin magically just became unbeatable one day after years of falling short? There was a high powered strategy in place, supported by significant funding and a determination to get the right people in place to drive it.

The real problem with the Provincial Championships is that Leinster and Munster have been allowed to deteriorate due to lack of funding, as GAA has been happy to see Dublin and Kerry breeze through to the All Ireland series every year and remain fresh enough to go far. Ulster and Connacht have remained fairly competitive, with a greater variety of teams challenging.

Commodore (Donegal) - Posts: 1202 - 01/05/2024 12:20:35    2542211

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Replying To points50swiththeargyllsonthewrongfeet:  "Exactly right. The point about the Ulster championship is that, to survive it, teams need to be firing on all cylinders from early in the season. By contrast, Dublin and Kerry can afford to treat their provincial championships as a glorified warm up, and pace themselves accordingly. Neither would win as much of they had to seriously shape up from much earlier in the season, and to be in a competition where most teams believe they can beat anybody on any given day, regardless of the prior form book. Further, as with counties where one club dominates, provinces with a dominant single county have a major advantage in that their squads know they will always be there or thereabouts (great for squad building), and they have that invaluable continuity of experience.

A soccer world cup type structure with 4 pools of 8 teams, would be much fairer all round.

And of course the Ulster c'ship is of questionable benefit for Ulster teams, in terms of how it causes Ulster teams to peak too early, and to invest too much in the provincial. He's right on that. I mean, the Kerry subs would win this year's Munster final. They could rest the Cliffords and still win. Luxuries like that are unimaginable in Ulster.

The major aspect in its favour is it's a shot at glory for teams who might not win an AI. And it has an un-matched intensity.
As a fan, some of the best and worst days of my life have been in Clones …"
I don't get this idea that we need to go to a World Cup style structure. What are we actually wanting for our Championship? Have we actually lost what we actually mean it to be and turn it into anything but a Championship. We keep tinkering it forward, but have we ever considered going back to when it worked? Not just games for the sake of games which that would be, but an actual knockout Championship?

Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2450 - 01/05/2024 12:32:59    2542215

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Replying To Loughduff Lad:  "I don't get this idea that we need to go to a World Cup style structure. What are we actually wanting for our Championship? Have we actually lost what we actually mean it to be and turn it into anything but a Championship. We keep tinkering it forward, but have we ever considered going back to when it worked? Not just games for the sake of games which that would be, but an actual knockout Championship?"
Do all these extra group games, prelim quarter finals exist merely to justify the amount of training and preparation that goes into county teams nowadays? If we go back to knockout (which would admittedly result in more exciting games), players could end up training for months for potentially only two championship games, e.g. if they lost in their province and then also lost their first AI Championship knock out game.

Lockjaw (Donegal) - Posts: 9518 - 01/05/2024 13:23:03    2542242

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Replying To Lockjaw:  "Do all these extra group games, prelim quarter finals exist merely to justify the amount of training and preparation that goes into county teams nowadays? If we go back to knockout (which would admittedly result in more exciting games), players could end up training for months for potentially only two championship games, e.g. if they lost in their province and then also lost their first AI Championship knock out game."
I actually think the new system begets itself. We've turned amateur players into pro players essentially as they do need to be training all year for all these games we are now creating for them. Is it games for the sake of games at this stage?

The point is, do they need to be training for many months for 2 games? I really think we're looking at this the wrong way round here. I think we're losing control of this overall. Many counties spending well over a million on county team prep, and it's only going up, and we're getting more and more games, but fewer good ones so fans are disengaging. Instead of shoehorning in more games, why not reduce the games in the truncated calendar so there doesn't need to be so much training?

And 2 games can be fine. Have the League, and then if you lose your 2 matches, isn't that Championship so tough luck? Better than this joke of a group stage over 5 weeks to knock out 4 teams...

Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2450 - 01/05/2024 13:58:48    2542256

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Replying To Loughduff Lad:  "I actually think the new system begets itself. We've turned amateur players into pro players essentially as they do need to be training all year for all these games we are now creating for them. Is it games for the sake of games at this stage?

The point is, do they need to be training for many months for 2 games? I really think we're looking at this the wrong way round here. I think we're losing control of this overall. Many counties spending well over a million on county team prep, and it's only going up, and we're getting more and more games, but fewer good ones so fans are disengaging. Instead of shoehorning in more games, why not reduce the games in the truncated calendar so there doesn't need to be so much training?

And 2 games can be fine. Have the League, and then if you lose your 2 matches, isn't that Championship so tough luck? Better than this joke of a group stage over 5 weeks to knock out 4 teams..."
You are preaching to the converted lad. I agree on that completely. Crowds aren't going to all these extra games. People can't afford it for a start I'd say, never mind about the quality of them.

Keep the leagues as they are as they are currently the best competitions.
After the league play the provincials, but spread the games out.
Then seed the provincial winners in whatever kind of knock-out championship draw, using the league placings to determine who plays in SM or TC.

Lockjaw (Donegal) - Posts: 9518 - 01/05/2024 15:45:16    2542283

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Replying To Lockjaw:  "You are preaching to the converted lad. I agree on that completely. Crowds aren't going to all these extra games. People can't afford it for a start I'd say, never mind about the quality of them.

Keep the leagues as they are as they are currently the best competitions.
After the league play the provincials, but spread the games out.
Then seed the provincial winners in whatever kind of knock-out championship draw, using the league placings to determine who plays in SM or TC."
Exactly this. The system can work as it is currently in the calendar, but remove the pointless games that only suits the bigger teams with multiple chances. Make it knockout in All Ireland Series and all of a sudden games mean something, they don't become missable, have them during the early summer when not competing with other sports, and the crowds and anticipation will return. We're apathetic to all these games, let's change that instead of putting even more games in and diluting it

Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2450 - 01/05/2024 15:57:05    2542290

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Replying To Loughduff Lad:  "Exactly this. The system can work as it is currently in the calendar, but remove the pointless games that only suits the bigger teams with multiple chances. Make it knockout in All Ireland Series and all of a sudden games mean something, they don't become missable, have them during the early summer when not competing with other sports, and the crowds and anticipation will return. We're apathetic to all these games, let's change that instead of putting even more games in and diluting it"
Yeah I'm picturing a scenario where say Dublin win Leinster (shocker I know!)
Then in the last 16 draw they get a home game against lowest seed based on league standings. Grand they win that.
But from the quarters on, all bets are off, it's open draw.

Purely hypothetical...

Dublin v Derry (Clones)
Kerry v Mayo (Limerick)
Donegal v Galway (Sligo)
Tyrone v Armagh (Cavan)

Open draw semi finals - Croke Park

Lockjaw (Donegal) - Posts: 9518 - 01/05/2024 16:17:12    2542292

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Replying To Lockjaw:  "Yeah I'm picturing a scenario where say Dublin win Leinster (shocker I know!)
Then in the last 16 draw they get a home game against lowest seed based on league standings. Grand they win that.
But from the quarters on, all bets are off, it's open draw.

Purely hypothetical...

Dublin v Derry (Clones)
Kerry v Mayo (Limerick)
Donegal v Galway (Sligo)
Tyrone v Armagh (Cavan)

Open draw semi finals - Croke Park"
I like that. And done and dusted in 4 game weeks. You could push Championship to start later into summer too, as you don't need the 7 game weeks as currently needed after provincials. Gives that break after League and allows a build up to the Championship and start on better weather

You could also put provincial winners to the quarters. Then the week of the provincial finals have the remaining 8 teams play each other in open draw. 4 winners play the 4 provincial losers, then open draw the provincial winners vs the qualifiers. Is it very like the old system? Yes, but with reduced numbers and Tailteann teams not in it. That's workable too. Do like your one though and no bloated system with loads of games for the craic of it

Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2450 - 01/05/2024 21:22:20    2542347

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I'd like to see us go back to the system we had from 01 - 17,, the only difference being provincial champions get home advantage in the quarter finals.

Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1942 - 01/05/2024 22:38:00    2542354

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I think it's a good system we have now just needs some minor tweaks.

TheMackAttack (Cavan) - Posts: 6 - 01/05/2024 23:20:09    2542358

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Another thread that has turned to championship structures.

To answer the title of the thread, the answer is yes.
The competitive nature of the championship brings improves team to a point.
That point is good enough to keep a lot of them in the top two divisions of the league.
Winning it can be a big boost to confidence to push on for SAM.
The only place it fails is if you want to consistently challenge for SAM year on year, you need to ease up on Ulster and are often better off not winning it (like Tyrone)

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1197 - 02/05/2024 04:45:43    2542378

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Replying To TheMackAttack:  "I think it's a good system we have now just needs some minor tweaks."
Yout think the group stage in a Championship to get rid of 4 teams is good?

Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2450 - 02/05/2024 08:36:49    2542391

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Replying To Loughduff Lad:  "Yout think the group stage in a Championship to get rid of 4 teams is good?"
I think if they're intent on keeping these groups at least make it that only the top two prevail so that there is more jeopardy.

Without going all nostalgic on it, and God knows the qualifiers had their critics, but heading to a random neutral ground on a warm summer's evening to play a knockout match had its merits.

Lockjaw (Donegal) - Posts: 9518 - 02/05/2024 09:06:24    2542393

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Replying To Lockjaw:  "I think if they're intent on keeping these groups at least make it that only the top two prevail so that there is more jeopardy.

Without going all nostalgic on it, and God knows the qualifiers had their critics, but heading to a random neutral ground on a warm summer's evening to play a knockout match had its merits."
They really do seem to be intent on it for some reason. Started with that Super 8s, but does anyone actually really want this? Like you say, heading to a game in summer knowing it was win or bust meant something. You know it was all on the line, you couldn't miss it. Now fans know games are missable and stay away until the actual jeopardy exists

Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2450 - 02/05/2024 09:42:02    2542402

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I missed it because I spent the summer in NY, but I know from speaking to other Donegal supporters that one of the great days following Donegal was in a qualfier in 2003 against Galway. We drew the first game in Crole Park and the replay was fixed for Castlebar. We ended up beating them on a lovely summer's evening and the craic was unreal so I'm told.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/donegal-turn-the-tide-of-fashion-1.369193

Lockjaw (Donegal) - Posts: 9518 - 02/05/2024 10:44:33    2542416

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