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World Cups and European Championships seemed to work ok when only the top 2 advanced to the knockout stages. The top 2 only in football could go through to the quarter-finals. These 8 could also be "automatic qualifiers" for an All-Ireland placed in the following year. The 3rd placed teams could playoff for 9 to 12. 9 to 11 guaranteed their All-Ireland placed for the following year. The 4th placed teams could playoff for 13 to 16. 12 to 15 would essentially be wildcard spots 1 to 4. If a lower ranked county won a provincial title, the 15th placed team would be the first to lose out. The All-Ireland 16 would then have the top 11, Tailteann winner and 4 provincial winners. Provincial winners can still be the top seeds for the group stage. All other counties ranked on league placing. Job done! Not perfect but allows for jeopardy in the group stage and works with the reality of provincial championships and provincial councils. Third placed teams scrambling to secure top 11. Fourth placed teams scrambling to avoid 16th at worst. legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8282 - 15/11/2024 17:06:19 2579774 Link 0 |
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A team getting a bye to the Semi Finals in Connacht or Munster and losing and then losing in the Qualifiers would be out of the Championship after just 2 games[providing they are not eligible for the Tailteann Cup] Under the current structure all teams are guaranteed a minimum of 4 Championship games. In fact 75 p.c of teams will get 5 Championship games. In Hurling all teams [level 1 down to level 5] have a guaranteed 5 Championship games apart from Munster which have 4. 4 Championship games is the bare minimum that football teams should be guaranteed considering all the time and effort that players and management put into their preparation. edu (Mayo) - Posts: 62 - 15/11/2024 20:44:47 2579805 Link 0 |
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Under the current structure all teams are guaranteed a minimum of 4 Championship games. In fact 75 p.c of teams will get 5 Championship games. In Hurling all teams [level 1 down to level 5] have a guaranteed 5 Championship games apart from Munster which have 4. 4 Championship games is the bare minimum that football teams should be guaranteed considering all the time and effort that players and management put into their preparation."]Derry lost to Donegal in Ulster, lost to Galway in R1 and lost to Armagh in R2. The general consensus was lose 3 and you should be out. legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8282 - 15/11/2024 22:22:17 2579820 Link 0 |
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Meath 2023 missed out on the All-Ireland series because Sligo benefitted from a lopsided Connacht draw. Down 2024 missed out on the All-Ireland series because Clare benefitted from a lopsided Munster draw. Meath and Down both dusted themselves down to win the Tailteann Cup but would they be tempted to bring a motion for balanced provincial draws? legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8282 - 16/11/2024 08:50:00 2579844 Link 0 |
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Under the current structure all teams are guaranteed a minimum of 4 Championship games. In fact 75 p.c of teams will get 5 Championship games. In Hurling all teams [level 1 down to level 5] have a guaranteed 5 Championship games apart from Munster which have 4. 4 Championship games is the bare minimum that football teams should be guaranteed considering all the time and effort that players and management put into their preparation."]I do give everyone "3 games", so at worst, it's "3 strikes and you're out" - not like in 2024 - some got a 4th chance - from above: ✓ Prov SF 16 (2nd chance after loss in SF 16, F 8 or new 'Champs 4' round) + Rd 1 Qual 16 (3rd chance after loss in 'Rd 1' only, then KO starting in Rd 2) So, 1st 8 drop out in Qual Rd 2 (leaving "Last 24"); 10 more out in Rd 3 (leaving "Last 14", incl Prov Champs); and 6 more out in Rd 4 (leaving AIC QFs etc). omahant (USA) - Posts: 2886 - 17/11/2024 02:01:12 2579926 Link 0 |
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The GAA were looking for feedback from Division 3 and 4 counties on the possibility of a third tier championship during the summer. There's no indication that it is on the cards yet. It'll be inevitable at some stage. Just a matter of when.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8282 - 17/11/2024 09:11:25 2579938 Link 0 |
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My Swiss System/URC-style idea has a 3-tier AIC after a 2-tier league: - 2 league tiers of 16, incl Prov SFC match results - teams ranked 1-16 & 17-32 - top 8 to AIC Sam - next 12 (9-20) to AI Shield (2nd grade AIC) - next 8 (21-28) to AI Plate (3rd grade AIC) It has everything - League, Prov SFCs, AIC with a 3rd grade added - enough to keep everyone happy. But they're not.... omahant (USA) - Posts: 2886 - 17/11/2024 14:50:47 2579971 Link 0 |
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I do not agree with doubling up provincial and league fixtures. I think that happened during covid and the lack of enthusiasm for that was answered. Do the AI Shield (Tailteann Cup) winners qualify for the All-Ireland championship of the following year? Do the AI Plate (essentially a future third tier if counties agreed) qualify for the Tailteann Cup in the following year? legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8282 - 17/11/2024 16:45:46 2579995 Link 0 |
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In rugby, the Triple Crown results double up toward the Six Nations (Calcutta Cup triples up). It's debatable how satisfying a Triple Crown title is when not winning the Six Nations as well - let's just say, "it's in the eye of the beholder" - maybe akin to Armagh's thrill winning Ulster, versus Dublin's blah winning Leinster. As I write, the US NBA is playing the second annual installment of the "NBA Cup" (groups of 5, then KO) - all games (maybe except Final) also count towards the more-important "regular season" - it remains to be seen if this subset Cup tournament will catch on with the US public, or is too much of a gimmick. To address your questions, re: my Swiss/URC-style: AI Shield 12 teams (9th-20th) - Tier 1 '3rd 4' (9-12) earn Prelim QF (PQF) byes and retain following year Tier 1 status; Tier 2 'top 4' play Tier 1 'last 4' in PQFs, and 4 winners 'earn or retain' Tier 1 status as well. So, there are 0-4 'win your way up' promotion berths - I have been stating this as the 'Shield QF 8' (as a whole) earn or retain Tier 1 status the next year. Only the Top 16 are eligible for Sam by advancing from a 'top 8' to Sam Playoffs (Tier 2 to Shield at best, or Plate). So like a Triple Crown winner needing to win sufficient points for the Six Nations title - I also have Prov Champs needing to make the 'top 8' (only guaranteed to contest the AI Shield). AI Plate 8 teams (21st-28th) - I reserve the "Tailteann Cup" name as an alternative for this new third-grade AIC - fitting I think, as essentially, the weakest 12 teams are competing for the 8 QF berths. Given the 'QF 8' are Tier 2 mid-table, there is no promotion to Tier 1 - BUT all Tier 2 teams strive to compete for the Shield each year via a 'top 4 berth' (17th-20th). I cull the 'bottom 4' (29-32) to give some incentive to advance to the Plate/Tailteann. Add your critique please - e.g. you don't like Sam limited to the 'Tier 1/Top 16' each year?....and Prov Champs get no Sam guarantee (although like to advance - Ulster Champ earns 6-8 pts for those games, if 'intra-tier')?....etc omahant (USA) - Posts: 2886 - 17/11/2024 20:34:17 2580042 Link 0 |
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You wrote: "I think that happened during covid and the lack of enthusiasm for THAT was answered." I agree - THAT being covid :) omahant (USA) - Posts: 2886 - 17/11/2024 21:06:54 2580051 Link 0 |
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Time to close this thread till next August. Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1949 - 17/11/2024 23:24:58 2580068 Link 0 |
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For all the talk of rule changes; having a better championship structure would make a much bigger difference. You're probably right - there's always next year! brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 351 - 18/11/2024 10:36:29 2580108 Link 0 |
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Both are needed. The new rules to encourage more attacking football than all this safe lateral passing. The championship needs to have jeopardy. That bit of bite. A lot of counties have no real jeopardy in the provincial championship. The group stage then has no real jeopardy either.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8282 - 18/11/2024 17:41:40 2580191 Link 0 |
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Despite all my structural ideas - as you think I should have done more - I do believe getting the rules and spectacle right is of most importance. omahant (USA) - Posts: 2886 - 19/11/2024 00:07:22 2580233 Link 0 |
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Over the last 2 years 3 teams have qualified for the A.I.C. group stage through the Provincial route only. Clare [2023 +2024] and Sligo [2023]. They qualified as being Provincial runners up. Their record in the group stage is as follows. Played--9 Won----0 Drew-- 1 Lost----8 P.F---111 P.A.---201 S.D. minus 90 Pts.---- 1 Not a great argument for Provincial runners up qualifying is it? There really should be seeded Provincial draws if the runners up are to qualify and League 3 Winners should have a guaranteed place. With 3 teams qualifying out of the groups u really need the best possible 16 teams competing. Having 1 weak team in a group only adds to the lack of jeopardy in qualifying for the K.O. stage. Anyways as it is most Provincial runners up qualify through their League positions. edu (Mayo) - Posts: 62 - 19/11/2024 16:21:34 2580333 Link 1 |
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and Sligo [2023]. They qualified as being Provincial runners up. Their record in the group stage is as follows. Played--9 Won----0 Drew-- 1 Lost----8 P.F---111 P.A.---201 S.D. minus 90 Pts.---- 1 Not a great argument for Provincial runners up qualifying is it? There really should be seeded Provincial draws if the runners up are to qualify and League 3 Winners should have a guaranteed place. With 3 teams qualifying out of the groups u really need the best possible 16 teams competing. Having 1 weak team in a group only adds to the lack of jeopardy in qualifying for the K.O. stage. Anyways as it is most Provincial runners up qualify through their League positions."]Clare beat Cork in 2023 to be fair. Full credit to them on that one. Cork retained their Division 2 status this year. Clare finished 3rd in Division 3. Clare only had to beat Division 4 Tipperary or Waterford to make the Munster final. They beat Waterford. Division 3 runners-up Down were consigned to the Tailteann Cup. If Clare had one of the top two Munster teams from league ranking on their side of the draw, it would be fair enough. One has to ask though: why do Down and Meath not raise a motion to Congress? If all counties had to win at least two provincial rounds to qualify via the provinces, only the provincial runners-up from Leinster and Ulster would be allowed. legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8282 - 19/11/2024 17:38:07 2580346 Link 0 |
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From above.... omahant (USA) - Posts: 2886 - 20/11/2024 14:19:10 2580452 Link 0 |
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If Meath and Down aren't complaining, what can be done? Is there any need to change anything? legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8282 - 20/11/2024 17:17:11 2580482 Link 0 |
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If Meath and Down aren't complaining, what can be done? Is there any need to change anything? legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8282 - 20/11/2024 18:20:21 2580487 Link 0 |
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omahant (USA) - Posts: 2886 - 21/11/2024 03:26:04 2580515 Link 0 |