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Football Format Changes Discussion

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Lads take a break till the New Year !

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1975 - 25/11/2024 09:24:42    2581114

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Replying To omahant:  "My understanding is Leitrim and Cavan have an open draw after each subsequent round. Without 'seeding pots', those draws are too luck dependent. UEFA CL has pots, so each team 'theoretically' plays a similar mixed quality schedule."
Luck dependent alright if it is an open draw. Clubs agree to it at the end of the day. Offaly has a group stage where all clubs advance to the knockout stage!

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8323 - 25/11/2024 13:17:48    2581165

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Luck dependent alright if it is an open draw. Clubs agree to it at the end of the day. Offaly has a group stage where all clubs advance to the knockout stage!"
KK hurling too, I think.

In my Swiss System, I have all 16-team Tier 1 advancing, albeit a 'Sam top 8' and 'Shield bottom 8' ('3rd 4' retaining Tier 1 status and avoiding the Prelim QFs; '4th 4' away to 'Tier 2 top 4') - so sufficient jeopardy, "I think".

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2908 - 25/11/2024 14:24:57    2581182

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Replying To omahant:  "KK hurling too, I think.

In my Swiss System, I have all 16-team Tier 1 advancing, albeit a 'Sam top 8' and 'Shield bottom 8' ('3rd 4' retaining Tier 1 status and avoiding the Prelim QFs; '4th 4' away to 'Tier 2 top 4') - so sufficient jeopardy, "I think"."
If the All-Ireland 16 took on the Swiss model format, the jeopardy should be that at least 5 of the 16 could be replaced by 4 provincial winners and 1 Tailteann winner in the following year.
In your example, top 8 going on to quarter finals and qualifying automatically for the next year. The lower 8 playing off for championship ranking 9 to 16. 9 to 11 qualifying automatically. 12 to 15 next in line for qualification if a higher county wins their provincial championship.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8323 - 25/11/2024 17:02:09    2581212

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Replying To legendzxix:  "If the All-Ireland 16 took on the Swiss model format, the jeopardy should be that at least 5 of the 16 could be replaced by 4 provincial winners and 1 Tailteann winner in the following year.
In your example, top 8 going on to quarter finals and qualifying automatically for the next year. The lower 8 playing off for championship ranking 9 to 16. 9 to 11 qualifying automatically. 12 to 15 next in line for qualification if a higher county wins their provincial championship."
Initially, I gave automatic berths to Prov Champs - but then felt, there would be no jeopardy to losing all its league games. So, I went full circle - teams have to earn qualification to the Sam AIC via overall league performance, aided by pts earned from Prov ties (doubling up as league ties).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2908 - 25/11/2024 22:54:49    2581258

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Replying To omahant:  "Initially, I gave automatic berths to Prov Champs - but then felt, there would be no jeopardy to losing all its league games. So, I went full circle - teams have to earn qualification to the Sam AIC via overall league performance, aided by pts earned from Prov ties (doubling up as league ties)."
I cannot see provincial councils voting in favour of doubling up as league. I cannot see provincial councils voting in favour of decoupling their championships from the all Ireland also. If it's your preference that's fine but in a vote, unlikely to gain traction.
If the league was decoupled from the championship, the club championships could return to completion while the league is on going. Some club players could take a break from intercounty without an impact on championship.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8323 - 26/11/2024 13:55:18    2581310

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Replying To legendzxix:  "I cannot see provincial councils voting in favour of doubling up as league. I cannot see provincial councils voting in favour of decoupling their championships from the all Ireland also. If it's your preference that's fine but in a vote, unlikely to gain traction.
If the league was decoupled from the championship, the club championships could return to completion while the league is on going. Some club players could take a break from intercounty without an impact on championship."
I agree to both your points - on "doubling up" and "decoupling". I don't consider the GAA political winds when offering my preferred solutions - they are just what I'd like to see implemented.

The current "hodge-podge" comes from the dual (and separate) link from Provs and League to the AIC Series - if it was one (either) of the two, it would be much cleaner - like my merit-based, League only.

Hurling awards match points for Prov matches - football could be a lot fairer if it did the same. Ulster Champ could earn 6-8 pts (assuming all Tier 1 opponents) and would likely make my "top 8" as they'd only need another 4-6 pts from 8 or 9 other 'league-only' matches (some against 'pot 4' opposition). This would a Prov and League link, working in tandem, towards a tier-specific AIC Series.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2908 - 26/11/2024 16:07:48    2581334

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Hurling has a better championship structure that hurling counties didn't want! A funny one!! Took football counties to vote it through!
Provincial councils don't seem enthused by using league seeding. It is what it is unless the likes of Meath and Down push for change.
They'll be less enthused on doubling up league and championship fixtures.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8323 - 26/11/2024 17:22:09    2581347

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Replying To legendzxix:  "I cannot see provincial councils voting in favour of doubling up as league. I cannot see provincial councils voting in favour of decoupling their championships from the all Ireland also. If it's your preference that's fine but in a vote, unlikely to gain traction.
If the league was decoupled from the championship, the club championships could return to completion while the league is on going. Some club players could take a break from intercounty without an impact on championship."
Under the current structure the Provincial Championships are more or less decoupled from the A.I.C. as far as the big hitters are concerned[All Division 1 teams and the top 6 or so in Division 2 qualify directly]

Out of the 16 slots available for the Provincial Finalists in the A.I.C group stage in 2023 and 2024 only 3 teams qualified through that route that had not already qualified through their League position. Clare and Sligo in 2023 and Clare in 2024. In some years there may be no team qualifying through the Provincial route.

In Ulster Armagh Donegal Tyrone Derry Monaghan and Cavan had secured their spots in the A.I.C before the commencement of the Ulster Championship. I do not think that their aim of winning a Provincial title was in anyway diluted by already being guaranteed a place in the A.I.C group stage. Similarly in Connacht Mayo Roscommon and Galway were already qualified also.

What this seems to show is the Provincial Championships do not require a connection [Which is currently rather tentative at best] to the A.I.C to be relevant and important.

edu (Mayo) - Posts: 65 - 26/11/2024 22:16:31    2581396

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Agreed with Edu. A lot of the big hitters are qualifying through the league and are still performing in the provincial championships. Provincial championships should be able to stand on their own two feet.
The old preseason competitions could be secondary competitions for those knocked out of provincial championships, so that they have more game time before the All Ireland or Tailteann. The All Ireland and Tailteann then could exist with promotion & relegation as in any county championship. Trialling for three years has been a popular method before. If it is a hit, great. If not, revert!

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8323 - 27/11/2024 10:37:35    2581432

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@edu (Mayo) - Posts: 63 - 26/11/2024 22:16:31

You make some great points.

Question - Given the importance of qualification to the AIC via the League, why not award match points via 'doubling up' of Prov KO games as well?

It would make the Prov ties more valuable, reduce matches played so the schedule is less tight and preserve all competitions (League, Prov KO & AIC).

There is nothing wrong with "Russian Doll" competitions within competitions (e.g. Calcutta Cup within Triple Crown within Six Nations Rugby; or the newish NBA Cup within the NBA regular season).
Importance of subsidiary competitions could be in the "eye of the beholder" (e.g. Armagh could cherish a desired Ulster title, while Dublin remains blah with another Leinster one). Either way, match pts are important on the road to the major prize.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2908 - 27/11/2024 13:55:49    2581473

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omahant, some 7up might quench your DoubleUp thirst! :-D
Edu has put forward a fair argument for decoupling provincial championships from the All-Ireland.
If provincial councils had to vote on the following 3 options, I'd be interested to know which they would prefer:
1. Provincial winners only qualifying through the provinces, regardless of seeding or not as preferred by the respective provincial councils.
2. League ranking used for balanced provincial draws. Provincial finalists advancing to the All-Ireland.
3. Provincial championships decoupled from the All-Ireland series.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8323 - 27/11/2024 17:05:14    2581501

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@legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8300 - 27/11/2024 17:05:14

7up on side with a CabSauv, yes.
Well, I'd say "2" is best, which means the GAA would pick something different and regressive.

Q - maybe, I'm not thinking straight - but what is the difference between "1" & "3"?

re: AIC w/Prov Direct Link v Decoupling -
Is my awarding match pts for Prov ties a halfway house?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2908 - 27/11/2024 18:22:39    2581505

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Replying To omahant:  "@legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8300 - 27/11/2024 17:05:14

7up on side with a CabSauv, yes.
Well, I'd say "2" is best, which means the GAA would pick something different and regressive.

Q - maybe, I'm not thinking straight - but what is the difference between "1" & "3"?

re: AIC w/Prov Direct Link v Decoupling -
Is my awarding match pts for Prov ties a halfway house?"
Is "1" the Pre-Qualifiers AIC à la the 90s (most regressive) and "3" is Provs stand alone?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2908 - 27/11/2024 19:23:24    2581512

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Replying To omahant:  "Is "1" the Pre-Qualifiers AIC à la the 90s (most regressive) and "3" is Provs stand alone?"
1. Provincial winners only qualifying through the provinces. All the rest made up by league qualification and Tailteann winner.
3. Provincial championships as standalone tournaments as suggested by Edu. Completely separate All-Ireland championship then as you'd see in many counties. The 4th placed teams from the groups of 4 can enter relegation semi-finals. Tailteann winner promoted.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8323 - 27/11/2024 21:14:28    2581518

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Alternative proposal (not to confuse thing even further…

Play the leagues as they are. Bottom two divisions are in Taliteann cup, top two in Sam Maguire. Top four in top division (D1 for Sam Maguire, D3 for Tailteann Cup) qualify for QF. Bottom four in top division and top four in lower division go into Preliminary QF. Bottom four in lower division are eliminated. PQF to be seeded based on league positions.

Provincial championship to be doubled up with league matches (as suggested above) until only one team from each province remain in each division. Then at that stage, play the provincial semi finals (D1 qualifier v D3 qualifier & D2 qualifier v D4 qualifier) and finals. To keep the provincial matches relevant at this point, you can still win league points as follows, beat a team two divisions above to earn two league points, beat a team one division above or any division below to earn one point.

Then finish out the leagues to confirm knockout qualification.

This way, you can't qualify to QF/PQF directly through the province, but you can boost your chances by earning extra league points, which keeps value in doing well in your province…

New&Improved (Leitrim) - Posts: 35 - 27/11/2024 22:09:40    2581529

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The footballers of Clare, Limerick, Tipperary and Waterford have ruined the Munster championship with their insistence on an open draw. They are not bringing the support and are not gaining the respect of their own people by getting through a lopsided draw.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8323 - 28/11/2024 13:22:43    2581590

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The footballers of Clare, Limerick, Tipperary and Waterford have ruined the Munster championship with their insistence on an open draw. They are not bringing the support and are not gaining the respect of their own people by getting through a lopsided draw."
As all four of those teams are 'lower 16' right now, a lopsided Munster draw guarantees that ALL ties between them 'double-up' as Tier 2 league ties.
Should I start a new conspiracy theory? :)

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2908 - 28/11/2024 22:02:12    2581667

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Replying To omahant:  "As all four of those teams are 'lower 16' right now, a lopsided Munster draw guarantees that ALL ties between them 'double-up' as Tier 2 league ties.
Should I start a new conspiracy theory? :)"
There's no jeopardy at the moment for the top counties knocked out of provinces. Ideally at least 14 counties would enter a playoff to join the 8 provincial finalists and previous year's Tailteann winner in the All-Ireland series.
EXAMPLE FROM 2024
Seeded: Derry, Tyrone, Roscommon, Monaghan, Cavan, Cork and Westmeath.
Unseeded: Down, Fermanagh, Kildare, Sligo, Antrim, Offaly and Laois.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8323 - 29/11/2024 10:47:38    2581685

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ALTERNATIVE 16 TEAM CHAMPIONSHIP SET UP

This is just an alternative way of scheduling the fixtures for the 16 teams that currently qualify for the A.I.C. It is based on how UEFA are now organizing their 3 club competitions

Rather than running it on 4 groups of 4 [as is the case currently]it is run on one single League of 16 teams with each team having 4 games [up from 3 in the groups]. Each team will have 2 home and 2 away games.

Currently for the group stage draw the teams are put into 4 pots of 4 as follows-It wud be the same in 16 Team League
POT 1--------- 4 Provincial Champions
POT 2----------4 Provincial Runners Up
POT 3----------4 Highest League
POT 4-----------Next 4 Highest League

For the 4 game schedule each team is drawn to play one team from each pot.
In Round 1 each team would play a team from their own pot followed by 1 team from the other 3 pots in the subsequent in 3 rounds

When the Provincial Champions are meeting in Round 1- a rotational pairing could be in place as used to be in place for the A.I.C Semi Finals in the pre qualifier days. In the 140 year history of the G.A.A there has never being a meeting of Kerry and Dublin in the A.I.C in Kerry.

How many teams to qualify for the K.O stages?
12 -------Too many
8 ------- Too few
10 ------- just about right

Top 6 in 16 Team Table------- Directly to Q.F
7 to 10 in 16 Team Table------ Into P.Q.F ------- 7 home v 10 and 8 home v 9

From Q.F onwards highest ranked team from 16 Team Table plays the remaining lowest ranked team and so on.
It means the teams finishing First and Second in Table can not meet until the Final.

It would also be very beneficial if the 4 Q.F rather than being played in Croke Park were home games for the teams finishing in the top 4 positions in the Table. Probably be one Q.F game in Croke Park anyways.[If Dublin finish in Top 4]

edu (Mayo) - Posts: 65 - 29/11/2024 11:34:05    2581691

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