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Replying To legendzxix: "Basically 4 of 11 is the top third of places available in Leinster. The top third across all provinces is the only way to solve the imbalance of numbers.
Connacht plus London 2 of 6.
Munster 2 of 6.
Ulster 3 of 9.
Leinster 4 of 11.
Tailteann winner 1 of the remainder.
12 teams in total.
ALL-IRELAND PRELIMINARY QUARTER-FINALS
4 provincial runners-up versus 4 non-finalists.
ALL-IRELAND QUARTER-FINALS
4 provincial winners versus 4 Pre-QF winners." Thankfully anyone with sense would know this is a non runner.
Some of the Provincial results could be interesting but in terms of being a fair way to determine a national champion and for teams to judge where they are actually at in the pecking order it is absolutely terrible.
On the line idea that the All Ireland group stage isn't getting the numbers going to it relative to the Provinces, I think it is important to note 2 things.
The 3 from 4 qualifying makes these games way less of a must see.
There are 120 possible combinations of fixtures (not including home and away) that you get from 16 teams.
The 24 fixtures that get played are literally the worst subset of 24 fixtures that you could pick (granted the imperfect seeding mitigates that a touch). The top teams are kept apart, the bottom teams are less likely to play against teams that they can get a result against.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4326 - 12/07/2024 12:09:06
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Replying To Whammo86: "Thankfully anyone with sense would know this is a non runner.
Some of the Provincial results could be interesting but in terms of being a fair way to determine a national champion and for teams to judge where they are actually at in the pecking order it is absolutely terrible.
On the line idea that the All Ireland group stage isn't getting the numbers going to it relative to the Provinces, I think it is important to note 2 things.
The 3 from 4 qualifying makes these games way less of a must see.
There are 120 possible combinations of fixtures (not including home and away) that you get from 16 teams.
The 24 fixtures that get played are literally the worst subset of 24 fixtures that you could pick (granted the imperfect seeding mitigates that a touch). The top teams are kept apart, the bottom teams are less likely to play against teams that they can get a result against." It is a hard sell. Especially with Leinster football being poor at the minute. Leinster football needs a bit of watering and nurturing too though. Leinster has 11 football counties. It is not entirely unreasonable for the top third from their province and all provinces to qualify for the All-Ireland series. Treating all provinces as equally as possible.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8161 - 12/07/2024 13:13:55
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Having being against it for ages, I'm starting to come around to the idea of provincials at the start of the year, followed by a league-based championship.
As it stands, the Division 1 league is the poisoned chalice.
2023 finalists Galway and Mayo both didn't make quarter finals, and 2024 finalists Dublin and Derry also didn't.
It seems that coming out too hot at the start of the year leads to burnout with the new longer season.
I think we would be better off with the season being shortened into a knockout provincial championship, same as it is currently, but moved to the start of the year, when the current league starts. (Would also scrap the pre-season comps)
Then lead into Sam Maguire and Tailteann Cup.
Each would have 2 groups of 8, where everyone plays each other once, (Same as current league) with a game every second week.
League positions would then lead into playoffs/knockout.
This could either be top 6, with top of each group going to semis, and 2nd and 3rd crossplaying with other group in quarterfinal. Or could be top 8, with 1st to 4th crossplaying in quarterfinals.
(My preference on knockouts would be option 1 for Sam to have a more cutthroat championship and option 2 for Tailteann to give teams more games to develop)
Thoughts?
Is there merit in having the league as a less serious competition to get lads warmed up?
Or would this shorter season work?
Obviously the GAA would be resistant to this, as it reduces the number of games and therefore the number of paydays.
Ciaran359 (Galway) - Posts: 15 - 12/07/2024 13:25:49
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Replying To Ciaran359: "Having being against it for ages, I'm starting to come around to the idea of provincials at the start of the year, followed by a league-based championship.
As it stands, the Division 1 league is the poisoned chalice.
2023 finalists Galway and Mayo both didn't make quarter finals, and 2024 finalists Dublin and Derry also didn't.
It seems that coming out too hot at the start of the year leads to burnout with the new longer season.
I think we would be better off with the season being shortened into a knockout provincial championship, same as it is currently, but moved to the start of the year, when the current league starts. (Would also scrap the pre-season comps)
Then lead into Sam Maguire and Tailteann Cup.
Each would have 2 groups of 8, where everyone plays each other once, (Same as current league) with a game every second week.
League positions would then lead into playoffs/knockout.
This could either be top 6, with top of each group going to semis, and 2nd and 3rd crossplaying with other group in quarterfinal. Or could be top 8, with 1st to 4th crossplaying in quarterfinals.
(My preference on knockouts would be option 1 for Sam to have a more cutthroat championship and option 2 for Tailteann to give teams more games to develop)
Thoughts?
Is there merit in having the league as a less serious competition to get lads warmed up?
Or would this shorter season work?
Obviously the GAA would be resistant to this, as it reduces the number of games and therefore the number of paydays." There is merit in having provincial championships before league. Getting provincial councils on board is a different matter. Provincial champions and Tailteann winner can be guaranteed their All-Ireland place. 11 places up for grabs then from the league.
The All-Ireland 16 and the Tailteann 16 can both be the double elimination format.
Some counties might have a 5 week wait between provincial knockout and league. A secondary provincial cup might be the stop gap solution.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8161 - 12/07/2024 14:13:46
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Replying To Ciaran359: "Having being against it for ages, I'm starting to come around to the idea of provincials at the start of the year, followed by a league-based championship.
As it stands, the Division 1 league is the poisoned chalice.
2023 finalists Galway and Mayo both didn't make quarter finals, and 2024 finalists Dublin and Derry also didn't.
It seems that coming out too hot at the start of the year leads to burnout with the new longer season.
I think we would be better off with the season being shortened into a knockout provincial championship, same as it is currently, but moved to the start of the year, when the current league starts. (Would also scrap the pre-season comps)
Then lead into Sam Maguire and Tailteann Cup.
Each would have 2 groups of 8, where everyone plays each other once, (Same as current league) with a game every second week.
League positions would then lead into playoffs/knockout.
This could either be top 6, with top of each group going to semis, and 2nd and 3rd crossplaying with other group in quarterfinal. Or could be top 8, with 1st to 4th crossplaying in quarterfinals.
(My preference on knockouts would be option 1 for Sam to have a more cutthroat championship and option 2 for Tailteann to give teams more games to develop)
Thoughts?
Is there merit in having the league as a less serious competition to get lads warmed up?
Or would this shorter season work?
Obviously the GAA would be resistant to this, as it reduces the number of games and therefore the number of paydays." I think moving provincial competitions to be played off at start of year will be death of them
If you want to keep them as stand alone competitions play them in between rounds of the league based main competitions you have.
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3624 - 12/07/2024 14:32:29
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Replying To legendzxix: "There is merit in having provincial championships before league. Getting provincial councils on board is a different matter. Provincial champions and Tailteann winner can be guaranteed their All-Ireland place. 11 places up for grabs then from the league.
The All-Ireland 16 and the Tailteann 16 can both be the double elimination format.
Some counties might have a 5 week wait between provincial knockout and league. A secondary provincial cup might be the stop gap solution." The format I mentioned above would have the league-based rounds as part of the championship, not a seperate competition that just decides who gets a place in Sam or Tailteann.
Ciaran359 (Galway) - Posts: 15 - 12/07/2024 14:51:07
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Replying To legendzxix: "It is a hard sell. Especially with Leinster football being poor at the minute. Leinster football needs a bit of watering and nurturing too though. Leinster has 11 football counties. It is not entirely unreasonable for the top third from their province and all provinces to qualify for the All-Ireland series. Treating all provinces as equally as possible." You are most passionate about ignoring the quality imbalance - starting with the lowest 16 "non Prov Finalists" in Rd 1 is a very fair option (they are the weakest, regardless of geography, no argument).
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2810 - 12/07/2024 15:07:50
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Replying To legendzxix: "It is a hard sell. Especially with Leinster football being poor at the minute. Leinster football needs a bit of watering and nurturing too though. Leinster has 11 football counties. It is not entirely unreasonable for the top third from their province and all provinces to qualify for the All-Ireland series. Treating all provinces as equally as possible." I just think the qualifiers would be a better system.
An issue that I think has hurt Leinster is that 7 of their 11 teams needed 4 qualifiers rounds to get through to the quarter finals and a further 2 needed to win 3 qualifiers rounds.
You could have a modified qualifier system.
12 teams reaching Munster and Connacht finals and Ulster and Leinster semifinals avoid round 1.
20 other teams play off.
10 through, 6 other teams losing in the Provinces play round 2
Provincial champions play a champions round winners through to quarterfinals.
Qualifiers round 3 (last 14):Round 2 winners, champions round losers, Ulster and Leinster semifinalists.
Flattens the qualifiers, reduces the significance of the Provincials compared to the old system and makes the entry points to the qualifiers more balanced between provinces in a pro-rated manner.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4326 - 12/07/2024 15:08:26
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Replying To legendzxix: "There is merit in having provincial championships before league. Getting provincial councils on board is a different matter. Provincial champions and Tailteann winner can be guaranteed their All-Ireland place. 11 places up for grabs then from the league.
The All-Ireland 16 and the Tailteann 16 can both be the double elimination format.
Some counties might have a 5 week wait between provincial knockout and league. A secondary provincial cup might be the stop gap solution." A compromise on playing the Prov Champps early could be to play only the less attractive Prelims & QFs then and defer the SFs & Finals to later during the league (or its reformed version as 8- or 10-team AIC groups).
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2810 - 12/07/2024 15:15:30
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What are the STRONG challenges to the structure below (league needs to be separate? - as Prov KO remains unchanged apart from mostly "doubling up"):
In football, 12 matches per team in each of two 16-team AI League-Championship Tiers (AILC 1 & 2) - each modelled on rugby's URC 'four groups of four' 18-match schedule, less the six intra-group ties - with all Provincial SFC intra-tier results "doubling up" for inclusion in the 12-match set (similar to the Triple Crown ties in Rugby Union's "Six Nations Championship").
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2810 - 12/07/2024 15:26:25
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Replying To Whammo86: "I just think the qualifiers would be a better system.
An issue that I think has hurt Leinster is that 7 of their 11 teams needed 4 qualifiers rounds to get through to the quarter finals and a further 2 needed to win 3 qualifiers rounds.
You could have a modified qualifier system.
12 teams reaching Munster and Connacht finals and Ulster and Leinster semifinals avoid round 1.
20 other teams play off.
10 through, 6 other teams losing in the Provinces play round 2
Provincial champions play a champions round winners through to quarterfinals.
Qualifiers round 3 (last 14):Round 2 winners, champions round losers, Ulster and Leinster semifinalists.
Flattens the qualifiers, reduces the significance of the Provincials compared to the old system and makes the entry points to the qualifiers more balanced between provinces in a pro-rated manner." I don't see the need to scrap the Tailteann Cup for the reintroduction of the qualifiers. Both can coexist. The GAA aren't the only sporting organisation to have a secondary tournament that rewards the winner with a place in the top tier tournament. It took UEFA long enough to reward the Europa League winners! ;-)
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8161 - 12/07/2024 16:18:50
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Replying To omahant: "What are the STRONG challenges to the structure below (league needs to be separate? - as Prov KO remains unchanged apart from mostly "doubling up"):
In football, 12 matches per team in each of two 16-team AI League-Championship Tiers (AILC 1 & 2) - each modelled on rugby's URC 'four groups of four' 18-match schedule, less the six intra-group ties - with all Provincial SFC intra-tier results "doubling up" for inclusion in the 12-match set (similar to the Triple Crown ties in Rugby Union's "Six Nations Championship")." "Strong challenge" is that no one in the GAA is considering your many proposals here, or the Kerry buck's either.
Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1795 - 12/07/2024 17:15:05
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Replying To Seanfanbocht: ""Strong challenge" is that no one in the GAA is considering your many proposals here, or the Kerry buck's either." I'll take the hit again like any forward bearing down on goal shrugging off a hefty challenge! ;-)
The ideal is to have three balanced qualifying rounds. 24 teams maximum can enter the qualifiers when New York are accounted for, with 8 provincial finalists and 1 Tailteann winner qualified.
Q1: 6 losers from provincial rounds 1. (Connacht and Munster quarter-finals. Leinster and Ulster preliminary round.)
Q2: 3 Q1 winners. 11 provincial round 1 and 2 losers. (Leinster and Ulster semi-finals being provincial round 3.)
Q3: 7 Q2 winners. 7 provincial round 2 and 3 losers.
If the Tailteann winner makes a provincial final, two provincial round 3 losers with the higher ranking can receive a bye. High probability in that scenario of two Ulster semi-finalists going through.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8161 - 12/07/2024 17:50:06
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Replying To legendzxix: "I don't see the need to scrap the Tailteann Cup for the reintroduction of the qualifiers. Both can coexist. The GAA aren't the only sporting organisation to have a secondary tournament that rewards the winner with a place in the top tier tournament. It took UEFA long enough to reward the Europa League winners! ;-)" That's taking a spot from a team who can come through Champions League qualification. It's designed to keep the rich clubs richer, gives them two routes to new Champions League. Thankfully they've scrapped allowing 3rd place in Champions League teams into the Europa League knockouts under the new format.
GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7564 - 12/07/2024 18:27:33
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Flattens the qualifiers, reduces the significance of the Provincials compared to the old system and makes the entry points to the qualifiers more balanced between provinces in a pro-rated manner.
@Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4307 - 12/07/2024 15:08:26 2558579
Good alternative to the your other one I like (lowest 16 league "non Prov Finalists" to Rd 1 etc).
However, something is off above (I think).
7 Rd 3 winners join 2 Champs Rd winners?
You have Prov Last 6 + 8 Rd 2 winners.
14 teams works with 2 Champs Rd winners + 12 in Final Qual Rd - but I don't see how the Uls & Lein Finals are already decided for the Champs Rd to take place.
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A prior idea I had:
Prov SF 16 + Qual Rd 1/ 16
Each Qual Rd 1 pair drawn with SF loser (8 groups x3)
Prov F 8 + Qual Groups 24 (top 2 of 3 from each group advance to Qual Rd 2)
PChamps 4 + Qual Rd 2/ 20 (Prov F 4 + Groups 16)
Qual Rd 3/ 12 (PChamps losers 2 + QRd 2 winners 10)
AI QFs (PChamps winners 2 + QRd 3 winners 6)
SFs
F
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Other idea:
Pre-2018 Qualifiers with a "twist" to counterbalance Prov inequity:
Prov SF 16 + Qual Rd 1/ 16
Qual Rd 2A = Prov SF 8 losers pair up
Qual Rd 2B = Qual Rd 1/ 8 losers pair up
Prov F 8
PChamps 4 + Qual Rd 3/ 20 (PF4 losers+Rds 1&2 wins)
Qual Rd 4/ 12 (PChamps 2 losers + 10 Rd 3 winners)
AI QFs (2 PChamps winners + 6 Qual Rd 4 winners)
SFs
F
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2810 - 12/07/2024 19:00:18
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Replying To legendzxix: "I don't see the need to scrap the Tailteann Cup for the reintroduction of the qualifiers. Both can coexist. The GAA aren't the only sporting organisation to have a secondary tournament that rewards the winner with a place in the top tier tournament. It took UEFA long enough to reward the Europa League winners! ;-)" I just think that once you have qualifiers there's not a whole lot of point to the 2nd tier championship. It's one or the other in my mind. I just don't see a team like Fermanagh or Down exiting the championship in the qualifiers really engaging in the Tailteann when there's going to be a lot of qualifiers spots available to the the following year.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4326 - 13/07/2024 05:13:54
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Replying To Whammo86: "I just think that once you have qualifiers there's not a whole lot of point to the 2nd tier championship. It's one or the other in my mind. I just don't see a team like Fermanagh or Down exiting the championship in the qualifiers really engaging in the Tailteann when there's going to be a lot of qualifiers spots available to the the following year." It would seem a bit rich for any county to turn their noses up at winning the Tailteann Cup if they have failed to qualify in the current year.
Tipperary lose a Munster quarter-final. Tipperary then lose a qualifying round. Two losses. If their third loss is in a straight knockout Tailteann Cup, their summer is over and fair enough after 3 losses.
The qualifiers and a straight knockout Tailteann coexisting means all counties are guaranteed at least 3 games. Strike 3 and you are out!!! Winter well and enjoy the club championships.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8161 - 13/07/2024 11:38:25
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Replying To legendzxix: "It would seem a bit rich for any county to turn their noses up at winning the Tailteann Cup if they have failed to qualify in the current year.
Tipperary lose a Munster quarter-final. Tipperary then lose a qualifying round. Two losses. If their third loss is in a straight knockout Tailteann Cup, their summer is over and fair enough after 3 losses.
The qualifiers and a straight knockout Tailteann coexisting means all counties are guaranteed at least 3 games. Strike 3 and you are out!!! Winter well and enjoy the club championships." I mean it'd depend a bit on the format of the top championship but I don't know, unless that involves a good program of matches I don't know if it's realistic to think there'd be lots of buy in for the 2nd tier. You're talking about needing to win it to get 1 place in the following season's competition but there's going to be potentially an easier opportunity the following season. I think it'd be particularly unattractive for a team that was shocked in their qualifier contest, if there's been something that has led to the success of this version of the Tailteann cup it's that by and large the strongest teams in the competition have bought into it. I just really struggle to see that happening to the same extent in your proposed construction.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4326 - 13/07/2024 13:23:49
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Replying To Whammo86: "I mean it'd depend a bit on the format of the top championship but I don't know, unless that involves a good program of matches I don't know if it's realistic to think there'd be lots of buy in for the 2nd tier. You're talking about needing to win it to get 1 place in the following season's competition but there's going to be potentially an easier opportunity the following season. I think it'd be particularly unattractive for a team that was shocked in their qualifier contest, if there's been something that has led to the success of this version of the Tailteann cup it's that by and large the strongest teams in the competition have bought into it. I just really struggle to see that happening to the same extent in your proposed construction." The All-Ireland 16 would most likely be the double elimination format. The Tailteann 16 will suit a straight knockout if all have qualifier shot at the All-Ireland.
It was a bit of a surprise for Meath to be in the Tailteann but that was their lot after Cork lost to Clare in '23. If Meath were knocked in a qualifier by Cork, why would they then struggle to accept that they have fallen short and the Tailteann can offer them a route back?
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8161 - 13/07/2024 15:58:10
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Scrap Hawkeye
It was wrong against Armagh but thankfully it didn't decide game
suckvalleypaddy (Galway) - Posts: 1706 - 13/07/2024 19:50:36
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