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Football Format Changes Discussion

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Replying To shaggykev:  "Are you having a chucking giraffe.

Kerrys route to All Ireland quarter final ......Cork, Clare, Louth, Monaghan, Meath.

The Kew Tours alright. Rip this garbage up and put it in the bin.

Convinced now that a variation of the hurling with Ulster on one side and the rest on the other is the best way to remodel the championship. Maybe two groups of six. Top two go through to final. Thirds playoff each other and the other quarter finalist comes from Tier 2 championship


Ulster
Derry
Tyrone
Monaghan
Donegal
Armagh
Cavan

Connacht/Munster/Leinster
Dublin
Kerry
Mayo
Galway
Roscommon
Cork

All play each other in five games. Sure thats a great championship right there and keeps the Ulster final and maybe improves it.

Equal amount of games and any smart alec that reckons the Connacht/Munster/Leinster is much tougher, get over yourselves. Kerry are getting away with murder for too long. About time they played some tough championship games outside Croker with it on the line."
The non Ulster section is definitely way stronger. You've Cavan getting in there for a start. They couldn't even win the Tailteann last year. They are Dublin and Kerry are still the 2 best teams. You have a cluster of teams then close to one another but these are the 3rd-5th best teams in the Non Ulster. You switch a Mayo into Ulster and they go from being marginal for 3rd place to challenging for top. That makes a huge difference.

I don't see why what you suggest is better Gh just getting all 12 of the best teams regardless of Province just playing for the All Ireland with non of the Provincial rubbish. The hurling works in spite of the Provincial rubbish.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4265 - 30/04/2024 16:14:10    2541935

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ULSTER CHAMPIONSHIP
Derry
Tyrone
Monaghan
Donegal
Armagh
Cavan

SOUTHERN CHAMPIONSHIP
Dublin
Kerry
Mayo
Galway
Roscommon
Cork

TAILTEANN CUP
2 groups of 5.

TIER 3
2 groups of 5.

The above is a very fair shout. The Tailteann and Tier 3 could be played out in two groups of five. The Tailteann winner promoted to their province and the last placed team in their province relegated.
From my calculations it allows league games every two weeks, with a rest weekend after every two rounds.
The provincial groups of 6 can allow rest weekends after rounds 2, 3 and 5. Similar to the rugby Six Nations.
The All-Ireland knockout would be similar to hurling. Two quarter-finals two weeks after the provincial finals. Two weeks to the semi-finals and two weeks to the final.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8000 - 30/04/2024 17:24:53    2541997

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Replying To legendzxix:  "ULSTER CHAMPIONSHIP
Derry
Tyrone
Monaghan
Donegal
Armagh
Cavan

SOUTHERN CHAMPIONSHIP
Dublin
Kerry
Mayo
Galway
Roscommon
Cork

TAILTEANN CUP
2 groups of 5.

TIER 3
2 groups of 5.

The above is a very fair shout. The Tailteann and Tier 3 could be played out in two groups of five. The Tailteann winner promoted to their province and the last placed team in their province relegated.
From my calculations it allows league games every two weeks, with a rest weekend after every two rounds.
The provincial groups of 6 can allow rest weekends after rounds 2, 3 and 5. Similar to the rugby Six Nations.
The All-Ireland knockout would be similar to hurling. Two quarter-finals two weeks after the provincial finals. Two weeks to the semi-finals and two weeks to the final."
It's way worse than 2 tiers of 2 groups of 8 nationally organised.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4265 - 30/04/2024 17:34:28    2542004

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Replying To legendzxix:  "ULSTER CHAMPIONSHIP
Derry
Tyrone
Monaghan
Donegal
Armagh
Cavan

SOUTHERN CHAMPIONSHIP
Dublin
Kerry
Mayo
Galway
Roscommon
Cork

TAILTEANN CUP
2 groups of 5.

TIER 3
2 groups of 5.

The above is a very fair shout. The Tailteann and Tier 3 could be played out in two groups of five. The Tailteann winner promoted to their province and the last placed team in their province relegated.
From my calculations it allows league games every two weeks, with a rest weekend after every two rounds.
The provincial groups of 6 can allow rest weekends after rounds 2, 3 and 5. Similar to the rugby Six Nations.
The All-Ireland knockout would be similar to hurling. Two quarter-finals two weeks after the provincial finals. Two weeks to the semi-finals and two weeks to the final."
Thanks legendzxix, someone bring it to central council and get Jim Gavin to give it the rubber stamp of approval and have it voted in.

This would genuinely be a top class product and still keeps rivalries going strong and works for fans commuting to games.

Dublin in Killarney in June bank holiday weekend in a championship game played at full intensity. Mayo, Galway & Rossies getting a crack at each other. It would be class.

shaggykev (Donegal) - Posts: 228 - 30/04/2024 17:36:55    2542006

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Replying To shaggykev:  "Spot on. Ulster is hampered again. But we cannot be rewarding Kerry and Dublin with points for challenge matches against lower tier teams.

In fact this whole new system is a total joke the more you think about it. 9-11 matches tough now to win an All Ireland for Ulster teams with matches every 1-2 weeks. Injuries probability through the roof so you'd need a massive strong squad with loads of resources….who benefits again…..Dublin of course, who get three bounce games before they play their six games to win an Ireland including against opponents that will be struggling with injuries and freshness."
They wouldn't get points for wins against lower tier teams, only those in the top championship.

A win against Cork could count but it's fine because all the other teams would get their go at Cork also.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4265 - 30/04/2024 17:38:38    2542008

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Replying To Whammo86:  "It's way worse than 2 tiers of 2 groups of 8 nationally organised."
It is a GAA solution to a GAA problem. Would be the way to go before considering 2 groups of 8 in 2 tiers. I don't see the harm in trialling it.
The Munster, Leinster and Connacht championships could be played out in January before the regular league, and the the two groups of six outlined.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8000 - 30/04/2024 18:12:49    2542023

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Replying To legendzxix:  "ULSTER CHAMPIONSHIP
Derry
Tyrone
Monaghan
Donegal
Armagh
Cavan

SOUTHERN CHAMPIONSHIP
Dublin
Kerry
Mayo
Galway
Roscommon
Cork

TAILTEANN CUP
2 groups of 5.

TIER 3
2 groups of 5.

The above is a very fair shout. The Tailteann and Tier 3 could be played out in two groups of five. The Tailteann winner promoted to their province and the last placed team in their province relegated.
From my calculations it allows league games every two weeks, with a rest weekend after every two rounds.
The provincial groups of 6 can allow rest weekends after rounds 2, 3 and 5. Similar to the rugby Six Nations.
The All-Ireland knockout would be similar to hurling. Two quarter-finals two weeks after the provincial finals. Two weeks to the semi-finals and two weeks to the final."
Would there be any relegation from Ulster, or would it be a closed shop like the Munster hurling championship?

Tacaí Liatroma (Leitrim) - Posts: 1081 - 30/04/2024 18:12:59    2542024

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Replying To Tacaí Liatroma:  "Would there be any relegation from Ulster, or would it be a closed shop like the Munster hurling championship?"
Or would the other Ulster teams go into the Southern Championship instead?

Tacaí Liatroma (Leitrim) - Posts: 1081 - 30/04/2024 18:23:44    2542033

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Replying To Tacaí Liatroma:  "Would there be any relegation from Ulster, or would it be a closed shop like the Munster hurling championship?"
It would depend on the Tailteann winner. The Tailteann winner would be promoted to their provincial championship, with the 6th placed team in that province relegated.
(Munster hurling isn't an exact closed shop any more. The McDonagh winner determines the province with 6 teams. If Kerry by some shock ever win the McDonagh, Munster will have six teams for a year, with five competing in Leinster.)
The other option similar to hurling is that one championship would have five teams. The Tailteann winner would determine the provincial championship with six teams. The Tailteann could then have two groups of six, relegation final between 6th placed teams. The Third Tier would have 9 remaining counties plus New York, however New York can be included!!

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8000 - 30/04/2024 18:38:16    2542037

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Yeah I do think that would be possible and preferable.

There is a competitive integrity issue at the minute where if top teams aren't incentivised to do well in the Province maybe a lesser team can pull of a shock that displaces a team from another province from the All Ireland.

If you were using a system of 12,10,10 you could have the Provincial championship results getting carried forward to the All Ireland.

Derry for instance would be qualified but they'd be starting now with 0 wins and 1 loss with 10 games to play.

I'd have it that you have 12 teams provisionally qualified, 10 from the Previous year's tier 1 plus tier 2 finalists. a team from outside the 12 can qualify by winning their province and there are playoffs to decide the team that drops out."
"....If you were using a system of 12,10,10 you could have the Provincial championship results getting carried forward to the All Ireland...."

Coming around to my "doubling up" I see.
But what would you do with inter-div Prov results? - 1) play separately; or 2) allow all teams one/two inter-div games count in group table to balance schedule/have same game count? Prov draws could be restricted to limit these.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2701 - 30/04/2024 18:47:19    2542044

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Replying To shaggykev:  "Are you having a chucking giraffe.

Kerrys route to All Ireland quarter final ......Cork, Clare, Louth, Monaghan, Meath.

The Kew Tours alright. Rip this garbage up and put it in the bin.

Convinced now that a variation of the hurling with Ulster on one side and the rest on the other is the best way to remodel the championship. Maybe two groups of six. Top two go through to final. Thirds playoff each other and the other quarter finalist comes from Tier 2 championship


Ulster
Derry
Tyrone
Monaghan
Donegal
Armagh
Cavan

Connacht/Munster/Leinster
Dublin
Kerry
Mayo
Galway
Roscommon
Cork

All play each other in five games. Sure thats a great championship right there and keeps the Ulster final and maybe improves it.

Equal amount of games and any smart alec that reckons the Connacht/Munster/Leinster is much tougher, get over yourselves. Kerry are getting away with murder for too long. About time they played some tough championship games outside Croker with it on the line."
Kerry route to all Ireland Q final
Beat Cork at home
05/05 - Clare
19/05 - home v Meath
02/06 - away v Monaghan
16/06 - v Louth (probably in Tullamore)
30/06 - Q final


Armagh route to qfinal
Beat Fermanagh
Beat Down
12/05 - v Donegal
26/05 - home v Cork (if win)
02/06 - away v Tyrone
16/06 - v Clare (Hyde Park)
30/06 - qfinal

Not that much tougher in reality

Donegal route to qfinal
Beat Derry
Beat Tyrone
12/05 - v Armagh
Then it's Cork, Tyrone, Clare

Mayo route to qfinals
Best New York
Beat Roscommon
05/05 - v Galway (away)
19/05 - v Derry (home)
02/06 - v Westmeath (away)
16/06 - v Donegal/Armagh

Meath route to a qfinal
Lose to Dublin
26/05 - away v Louth
02/06 - home v Kerry
16/06 - v Monaghan (in Armagh)




So in effect
Mayo have to beat 4 div 1 teams and 1 div 2 team
Donegal have to beat 4 div 1 teams and 1 div 2 team
Armagh have to beat 2 div 1 team and 3 div 2 team
Dublin have to beat 2 div 1 teams and 3 div 2 teams (only 1 away from home)
Kerry have to beat 1 div 1 team and 3 div 2 teams


Yes the whole system is set up for Kerry and Dublin, sometimes an Ulster or Connacht team can get a good draw but generally not.

You get an easier draw if your a div 2 team in Leinster than that majority of Connacht and Ulster teams

Amalgamation of Leinster and Munster is the answer.
Leinster/Munster A championship - Kerry, Dublin, Cork, Meath, Louth, Kildare, Westmeath, Clare
Leinster/Munster B championship - other 6 counties

All Ireland group stages then have the 3 provincial champions and the league winners as top seeds and all other seedings based on league placing

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1157 - 01/05/2024 05:28:16    2542131

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A lot of posters here are focusing on the competitive nature of Ulster and Connaught - but lets put some historical context around this. Dublin have won 31 All-Irelands; Kerry have won 38 - between them they have won around 1/2 ever completed. They are competitive because they don't have a "big fish".

As a province Connaught are currently undergoing the longest All Ireland drought since Ulster teams went 23 years between Down's wins in 1968 and 1991.

I believe that if we leave the structure alone for a few years the general standards in Leinster and Munster will start to raise as better quality games will be there for all teams. The general competitiveness will get there across the country - albeit with Dublin and Kerry being as tough to beat inside the province as its proving outside the province.

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 303 - 01/05/2024 10:38:03    2542176

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Replying To omahant:  ""....If you were using a system of 12,10,10 you could have the Provincial championship results getting carried forward to the All Ireland...."

Coming around to my "doubling up" I see.
But what would you do with inter-div Prov results? - 1) play separately; or 2) allow all teams one/two inter-div games count in group table to balance schedule/have same game count? Prov draws could be restricted to limit these."
They wouldn't count.

So yeah some teams are playing games that likely don't count but they can't lose them still and run the risk of that team qualifying and the game ends up counting.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4265 - 01/05/2024 15:07:17    2542273

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Replying To Whammo86:  "They wouldn't count.

So yeah some teams are playing games that likely don't count but they can't lose them still and run the risk of that team qualifying and the game ends up counting."
Sorry, I read that last part three times and I didn't get it all - I'm getting old :) - please take another stab at it.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2701 - 01/05/2024 17:24:53    2542306

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Replying To brianb:  "A lot of posters here are focusing on the competitive nature of Ulster and Connaught - but lets put some historical context around this. Dublin have won 31 All-Irelands; Kerry have won 38 - between them they have won around 1/2 ever completed. They are competitive because they don't have a "big fish".

As a province Connaught are currently undergoing the longest All Ireland drought since Ulster teams went 23 years between Down's wins in 1968 and 1991.

I believe that if we leave the structure alone for a few years the general standards in Leinster and Munster will start to raise as better quality games will be there for all teams. The general competitiveness will get there across the country - albeit with Dublin and Kerry being as tough to beat inside the province as its proving outside the province."
Connacht can beat that drought. What about 1966 to 1998?

Pope_Benedict (Galway) - Posts: 3579 - 01/05/2024 17:54:27    2542309

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Replying To tirawleybaron:  "
Replying To shaggykev:  "Are you having a chucking giraffe.

Kerrys route to All Ireland quarter final ......Cork, Clare, Louth, Monaghan, Meath.

The Kew Tours alright. Rip this garbage up and put it in the bin.

Convinced now that a variation of the hurling with Ulster on one side and the rest on the other is the best way to remodel the championship. Maybe two groups of six. Top two go through to final. Thirds playoff each other and the other quarter finalist comes from Tier 2 championship


Ulster
Derry
Tyrone
Monaghan
Donegal
Armagh
Cavan

Connacht/Munster/Leinster
Dublin
Kerry
Mayo
Galway
Roscommon
Cork

All play each other in five games. Sure thats a great championship right there and keeps the Ulster final and maybe improves it.

Equal amount of games and any smart alec that reckons the Connacht/Munster/Leinster is much tougher, get over yourselves. Kerry are getting away with murder for too long. About time they played some tough championship games outside Croker with it on the line."
Kerry route to all Ireland Q final
Beat Cork at home
05/05 - Clare
19/05 - home v Meath
02/06 - away v Monaghan
16/06 - v Louth (probably in Tullamore)
30/06 - Q final


Armagh route to qfinal
Beat Fermanagh
Beat Down
12/05 - v Donegal
26/05 - home v Cork (if win)
02/06 - away v Tyrone
16/06 - v Clare (Hyde Park)
30/06 - qfinal

Not that much tougher in reality

Donegal route to qfinal
Beat Derry
Beat Tyrone
12/05 - v Armagh
Then it's Cork, Tyrone, Clare

Mayo route to qfinals
Best New York
Beat Roscommon
05/05 - v Galway (away)
19/05 - v Derry (home)
02/06 - v Westmeath (away)
16/06 - v Donegal/Armagh

Meath route to a qfinal
Lose to Dublin
26/05 - away v Louth
02/06 - home v Kerry
16/06 - v Monaghan (in Armagh)




So in effect
Mayo have to beat 4 div 1 teams and 1 div 2 team
Donegal have to beat 4 div 1 teams and 1 div 2 team
Armagh have to beat 2 div 1 team and 3 div 2 team
Dublin have to beat 2 div 1 teams and 3 div 2 teams (only 1 away from home)
Kerry have to beat 1 div 1 team and 3 div 2 teams


Yes the whole system is set up for Kerry and Dublin, sometimes an Ulster or Connacht team can get a good draw but generally not.

You get an easier draw if your a div 2 team in Leinster than that majority of Connacht and Ulster teams

Amalgamation of Leinster and Munster is the answer.
Leinster/Munster A championship - Kerry, Dublin, Cork, Meath, Louth, Kildare, Westmeath, Clare
Leinster/Munster B championship - other 6 counties

All Ireland group stages then have the 3 provincial champions and the league winners as top seeds and all other seedings based on league placing"
I think the answer could just be to decouple the Province from the All Ireland. If a Provincial council wants to play them they can and they can choose when and in whatever format. Maybe a bit more freedom in the schedule for the individual units could be a good thing for the game and allowing for local challenges to be met.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4265 - 01/05/2024 18:05:00    2542312

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Replying To omahant:  "Sorry, I read that last part three times and I didn't get it all - I'm getting old :) - please take another stab at it."
Say you have Kerry v Clare in the Munster final and Clare only qualifies if they win. The result will either not count for Kerry or they will go into the All Ireland with 1 loss versus the now qualified Clare.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4265 - 01/05/2024 18:06:57    2542314

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The Tailteann Cup has near perfect seeding. Four balanced groups from the draw yesterday. If the GAA are to make incremental changes to the current format, provincial winners only qualifying and Seed 2 to 4 on league placing would provide balanced All-Ireland groups as well.
The optics of 3 out of 4 qualifying from the groups looks soft. Lower tier hurling championships have to finish in the top 2 of 6! Four McDonagh counties could finish some year on 3 wins each. Two of the four would be eliminated!

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8000 - 01/05/2024 18:51:39    2542321

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Replying To Whammo86:  "The non Ulster section is definitely way stronger. You've Cavan getting in there for a start. They couldn't even win the Tailteann last year. They are Dublin and Kerry are still the 2 best teams. You have a cluster of teams then close to one another but these are the 3rd-5th best teams in the Non Ulster. You switch a Mayo into Ulster and they go from being marginal for 3rd place to challenging for top. That makes a huge difference.

I don't see why what you suggest is better Gh just getting all 12 of the best teams regardless of Province just playing for the All Ireland with non of the Provincial rubbish. The hurling works in spite of the Provincial rubbish."
To counterbalance any difference in strength between the groups, and in lieu of the league, I'd have 'Ulster v Non Ulster', 6 inter-region games for all.

These games, combined with the 5 "provincial" results could form a 12-team, 11-match complete round robin table.

Top 6 of 12 to the AI QFs, along with 2 "Provincial" Champs - teams advancing twice earn byes.

Provincial results (5 games only) could also determine the top 2 Provincial Finalists in each group, so these 5 games 'double count'.

What could possibly be unfair about this - easier to get the Ulster bye? - give me a break!

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2701 - 01/05/2024 19:09:16    2542325

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Say you have Kerry v Clare in the Munster final and Clare only qualifies if they win. The result will either not count for Kerry or they will go into the All Ireland with 1 loss versus the now qualified Clare."
Oh I see what you mean now - the missing link was I was not allowing for the parachuting of a non-div 1 Prov Champ into the Tier 1 AIC.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2701 - 01/05/2024 19:19:52    2542330

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