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Football Format Changes Discussion

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The Munster hurling championship seems to have the magic formula. 5 competitive teams battling it out for 3 places. Big crowds. Cork and Clare looking at knockout hurling already heading into Round 2.
The Dublin championship still seems to have the template for football. Two Round 1 winners playing in Round 2. Round 3 possibly a battle between two teams on 1 win each for a place in the quarter-finals.
SCENARIO-1:
Round 1: Galway beat Tyrone and Armagh beat Westmeath.
Round 2: Galway beat Armagh and Tyrone beat Westmeath.
Round 3: Armagh (2) v Tyrone (2), Galway (4) v Westmeath (0). Galway are already through and Westmeath are already eliminated. The media can focus on Armagh v Tyrone which is a quarter-final playoff. Both games throw in at the same time. TV can only show one.
SCENARIO-2:
Round 1: Galway beat Tyrone and Armagh beat Westmeath.
Round 2: Armagh beat Galway and Tyrone beat Westmeath.
Round 3: Armagh (4) v Tyrone (2), Galway (2) v Westmeath (0). Galway and Tyrone can still get to two wins to knockout Armagh. Westmeath can get to one win to knockout Tyrone and Galway. All to play for."
Although, that Galway (4) v Westmeath (0) is a "dead, dead, DEAD rubber" and could be used as an argument for having 3 advance. Then, we are back to your other 'wonderful' idea - with 3 of 4 advancing, have the Rd 1 winners play in "Rd 3" instead, with the winner getting the sole QF berth and the other two teams likely in a 'KO tie' for a Prelim QF berth, with the loser out.

But yes - Munster SHC with 3 of 5 almost seems like the sweet spot in having both enough incentive and jeopardy in equal measure.

Imagine an 'Ulster top 5' (Derry, Donegal, Armagh, Monaghan & Down) and a 'Connacht 5' (Mayo, Galway, Roscommon, Dublin & Kerry) with 3 advancing from each - WOW !

As....for the league....they could then play the 'other' group only. So, over the season, each team plays a 9-game round robin, with two of 10 down (but with two coming up, both could be Ulster, or neither, hmmm).

Have the next "two fives" in tier 2 - with again, 4 group games in AIC and 5 inter-group in the league - again, two of 10 up, two of 10 down.

Tier 3, with "two sixes" could play a similar 4+5 schedule (to keep the same length), if teams avoid one opponent in each competition.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2701 - 26/04/2024 02:09:21    2540695

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Replying To omahant:  "Yeah, I am inspired by URC, UEFA-W & AFL structures.

In particular, I like UEFA-W where they use a similar format for all three qualifying competitions - Euros, World Cup & National League - by just applying promotion & relegation, the tiers are reset for the next qualifiers and the structure becomes easy to understand through continued repetitive cycles. It's a bit like your 'double league' season, one of which is the AIC.

Separately, like hurling, AIC group points for Provincial Championship results would go someway towards making the latter more valuable. Even if there are still some mismatches, these could be more evenly spread for a more equitable national competition."
I don't really think the Women's UEFA qualifiers are a great structure.

The play off aspect of them at least anyway. It makes sense for them given there's varying levels of maturity of the sport across regions and they want to not be exclusionary of the lower level teams but it would be a waste of time to put them up against the established teams.

There's an element of that in the GAA but I don't know, I don't really think it's the sort of level of competitive integrity that you'd want from top level sport.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4265 - 26/04/2024 12:46:28    2540744

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Replying To Whammo86:  "A 12-10-10 where everyone plays everyone once could make sense. I don't think inter-tier knockout phases are a good idea.

I think it's good just to have the champions be crowned at the given tier based on those entered at the outset.

Maybe promotion places could be at stake for the losing finalist or something to make the final more valuable.

In your other proposal the knockout stages do feel over engineered and that seems to be the follow on from having too many group phase games.

The format seems to draw inspiration from the URC, Women's International Football Euros qualifiers and the AFL. I think for various reasons they are really particularly good frameworks for meeting the needs of Gaelic football."
Inter-tier: As it is, Tier 1 & Tier 2 AIC group stage are a mix of league div 2 & 3 teams.

KO Cutoff: if set at mid-table for 'own tier' AIC, I think that should keep most teams incentivised, even over 12 games.

Prior/Over-engineered: Yeah, maybe - could streamline a bit - say, bottom half 1A/1B & top two 2A/2B to a 12-team Tier 2 field - SF4 to next tier 1, 8 others drop down to join 3rd/4th/5th 2A/2B in 14-team Tier 3 - SF4 to next tier 1.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2701 - 26/04/2024 19:27:46    2540809

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People like the league because it pits teams at a similar level against eachother but there is also a demand for knockout games. I do think the LGFA have it right by having each competition be its own thing. Groups of 4 would be fine if you had a relegation built in as it would add jeopardy. You can seed based on league performance.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 739 - 26/04/2024 21:36:23    2540815

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Replying To Rolo2010:  "People like the league because it pits teams at a similar level against eachother but there is also a demand for knockout games. I do think the LGFA have it right by having each competition be its own thing. Groups of 4 would be fine if you had a relegation built in as it would add jeopardy. You can seed based on league performance."
Are you saying the 4 Tailteann group winners could go up and replace the 4 Sam group bottom teams for the following year's AIC. Interesting - then the league is separate, used for AIC seeding only.

I'd say instead of having a separate league of 7 games, teams could play 2 of 3 other groups in their own tier as well instead - so 11 games over a combined league/AIC season - leading into the 12-team AIC KO (or less) in each tier.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2701 - 27/04/2024 02:47:14    2540832

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If the 12:10:10 format is brought in, the provincial championships could be played first with the 4 provincial winners guaranteed a place in the following year's All-Ireland 12. The Tailteann 10 winner would also qualify. All counties in the All-Ireland 12 would know what they would have to do for the remaining 7 places. No county could entirely dismiss the provincial championships as they would offer the first tickets for qualifying in the following year.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7999 - 27/04/2024 09:06:11    2540850

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I don't really think the Women's UEFA qualifiers are a great structure.

The play off aspect of them at least anyway. It makes sense for them given there's varying levels of maturity of the sport across regions and they want to not be exclusionary of the lower level teams but it would be a waste of time to put them up against the established teams.

There's an element of that in the GAA but I don't know, I don't really think it's the sort of level of competitive integrity that you'd want from top level sport."
Congrats on Antrim's SHC win over Wexford, just finished - how about targetting Lein 3rd now?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2701 - 27/04/2024 16:38:03    2540933

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Replying To legendzxix:  "If the 12:10:10 format is brought in, the provincial championships could be played first with the 4 provincial winners guaranteed a place in the following year's All-Ireland 12. The Tailteann 10 winner would also qualify. All counties in the All-Ireland 12 would know what they would have to do for the remaining 7 places. No county could entirely dismiss the provincial championships as they would offer the first tickets for qualifying in the following year."
Looks good but how does this work? - with 5 from prior year, is the next 7 simply 7 from 7 - are these all the remainders in the 12? - I'm obviously lost.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2701 - 27/04/2024 17:29:50    2540965

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Replying To omahant:  "Looks good but how does this work? - with 5 from prior year, is the next 7 simply 7 from 7 - are these all the remainders in the 12? - I'm obviously lost."
The best 7 from 12 outside of the 4 provincial winners. I don't think the league needs to merge with championship either. The three 12:10:10 championship groups can take over from the league. The traditional league can move to January but in 2 groups of 4. Group winners into division finals, with winners promoted. 4th placed teams into relegation finals, with losers relegated.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7999 - 27/04/2024 17:41:40    2540967

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The best 7 from 12 outside of the 4 provincial winners. I don't think the league needs to merge with championship either. The three 12:10:10 championship groups can take over from the league. The traditional league can move to January but in 2 groups of 4. Group winners into division finals, with winners promoted. 4th placed teams into relegation finals, with losers relegated."
But if 4 Prov Champs and Tailteann winner are now likely Tier 1 teams, isn't it 7 of other 7 then? - or are you assuming say, 3 of other 7 to AI QFs, with prior 5 qualifiers? - You are keeping the league separate / independent, correct?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2701 - 27/04/2024 18:21:49    2540981

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Replying To omahant:  "But if 4 Prov Champs and Tailteann winner are now likely Tier 1 teams, isn't it 7 of other 7 then? - or are you assuming say, 3 of other 7 to AI QFs, with prior 5 qualifiers? - You are keeping the league separate / independent, correct?"
No. The Tailteann winner are qualifying from the second Tier group. At least 1 of the 12 teams in the All-Ireland group will be in the Tailteann group of the following year. If 1 provincial winner of the current year are in the Tailteann group or the Tier 3 group, it means 2 of the 12 teams in the All-Ireland group will be in the Tailteann group of the following year. If by some shock the 4 provincial winners are all in the Tailteann group or lower, only 7 of the 12 teams in the All-Ireland group will be in the Tailteann group of the following year.
For as long as the provincial link is to remain, I'd keep the 12:10:10 groups separate from the league.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7999 - 27/04/2024 19:13:42    2540991

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Replying To legendzxix:  "No. The Tailteann winner are qualifying from the second Tier group. At least 1 of the 12 teams in the All-Ireland group will be in the Tailteann group of the following year. If 1 provincial winner of the current year are in the Tailteann group or the Tier 3 group, it means 2 of the 12 teams in the All-Ireland group will be in the Tailteann group of the following year. If by some shock the 4 provincial winners are all in the Tailteann group or lower, only 7 of the 12 teams in the All-Ireland group will be in the Tailteann group of the following year.
For as long as the provincial link is to remain, I'd keep the 12:10:10 groups separate from the league."
"....only 7 of the 12 teams in the All-Ireland group will be in the TAILTEANN group of the following year...."

Just double checking the accuracy of this - as I am still lost, I don't follow at all. If there are 4 lower tier Prov Champs this year, they all get Sam berths next year (along with current year Tailteann Champ), so it's like 5 up to Sam, 5 down to Tailteann for next year (7 play Sam BOTH years by staying up).

Given that this is hypothetical, I am MOST willing to let this go if continuing to not get it :)

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2701 - 28/04/2024 21:27:39    2541298

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Replying To omahant:  ""....only 7 of the 12 teams in the All-Ireland group will be in the TAILTEANN group of the following year...."

Just double checking the accuracy of this - as I am still lost, I don't follow at all. If there are 4 lower tier Prov Champs this year, they all get Sam berths next year (along with current year Tailteann Champ), so it's like 5 up to Sam, 5 down to Tailteann for next year (7 play Sam BOTH years by staying up).

Given that this is hypothetical, I am MOST willing to let this go if continuing to not get it :)"
No lower tier provincial championships.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7999 - 28/04/2024 22:32:23    2541323

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Replying To legendzxix:  "No lower tier provincial championships."
Let me withdraw.

What I meant was 4 Prov winners and the Tier 2 winner from the '10s' in the 12-10-10 in Year 1 will play in the '12' (Tier 1) in Year 2. So how are the 'other 7' (Tier 1, Year 2) determined if there is, as you say, no link to the league?

Does anyone else get this and could chime in?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2701 - 29/04/2024 13:18:17    2541473

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In the SHC, Limerick have 4 pts from their Prov wins over Clare & Tipp.

In the SFC, after hard-won Prov victories over Derry & Tyrone, Donegal will have 0 pts when the groups are formed on Tuesday.
Should there be a better reward for Prov results on the road to Sam?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2701 - 29/04/2024 14:17:01    2541500

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Replying To omahant:  "Let me withdraw.

What I meant was 4 Prov winners and the Tier 2 winner from the '10s' in the 12-10-10 in Year 1 will play in the '12' (Tier 1) in Year 2. So how are the 'other 7' (Tier 1, Year 2) determined if there is, as you say, no link to the league?

Does anyone else get this and could chime in?"
The All-Ireland Championship would be a 12 team group. The best 7 after 11 games also qualifying for the following year's All-Ireland group of 12.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7999 - 29/04/2024 17:39:20    2541582

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Replying To omahant:  "In the SHC, Limerick have 4 pts from their Prov wins over Clare & Tipp.

In the SFC, after hard-won Prov victories over Derry & Tyrone, Donegal will have 0 pts when the groups are formed on Tuesday.
Should there be a better reward for Prov results on the road to Sam?"
Yeah I do think that would be possible and preferable.

There is a competitive integrity issue at the minute where if top teams aren't incentivised to do well in the Province maybe a lesser team can pull of a shock that displaces a team from another province from the All Ireland.

If you were using a system of 12,10,10 you could have the Provincial championship results getting carried forward to the All Ireland.

Derry for instance would be qualified but they'd be starting now with 0 wins and 1 loss with 10 games to play.

I'd have it that you have 12 teams provisionally qualified, 10 from the Previous year's tier 1 plus tier 2 finalists. a team from outside the 12 can qualify by winning their province and there are playoffs to decide the team that drops out.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4265 - 30/04/2024 09:26:54    2541690

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Replying To omahant:  "In the SHC, Limerick have 4 pts from their Prov wins over Clare & Tipp.

In the SFC, after hard-won Prov victories over Derry & Tyrone, Donegal will have 0 pts when the groups are formed on Tuesday.
Should there be a better reward for Prov results on the road to Sam?"
Spot on. Ulster is hampered again. But we cannot be rewarding Kerry and Dublin with points for challenge matches against lower tier teams.

In fact this whole new system is a total joke the more you think about it. 9-11 matches tough now to win an All Ireland for Ulster teams with matches every 1-2 weeks. Injuries probability through the roof so you'd need a massive strong squad with loads of resources….who benefits again…..Dublin of course, who get three bounce games before they play their six games to win an Ireland including against opponents that will be struggling with injuries and freshness.

shaggykev (Donegal) - Posts: 228 - 30/04/2024 10:53:34    2541715

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Replying To shaggykev:  "Spot on. Ulster is hampered again. But we cannot be rewarding Kerry and Dublin with points for challenge matches against lower tier teams.

In fact this whole new system is a total joke the more you think about it. 9-11 matches tough now to win an All Ireland for Ulster teams with matches every 1-2 weeks. Injuries probability through the roof so you'd need a massive strong squad with loads of resources….who benefits again…..Dublin of course, who get three bounce games before they play their six games to win an Ireland including against opponents that will be struggling with injuries and freshness."
The simple answer to this issue is to decouple the Provinces from the All Ireland.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4265 - 30/04/2024 13:46:17    2541801

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Are you having a chucking giraffe.

Kerrys route to All Ireland quarter final ......Cork, Clare, Louth, Monaghan, Meath.

The Kew Tours alright. Rip this garbage up and put it in the bin.

Convinced now that a variation of the hurling with Ulster on one side and the rest on the other is the best way to remodel the championship. Maybe two groups of six. Top two go through to final. Thirds playoff each other and the other quarter finalist comes from Tier 2 championship


Ulster
Derry
Tyrone
Monaghan
Donegal
Armagh
Cavan

Connacht/Munster/Leinster
Dublin
Kerry
Mayo
Galway
Roscommon
Cork

All play each other in five games. Sure thats a great championship right there and keeps the Ulster final and maybe improves it.

Equal amount of games and any smart alec that reckons the Connacht/Munster/Leinster is much tougher, get over yourselves. Kerry are getting away with murder for too long. About time they played some tough championship games outside Croker with it on the line.

shaggykev (Donegal) - Posts: 228 - 30/04/2024 15:36:35    2541873

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