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Football Format Changes Discussion

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Replying To Whammo86:  "But why the league to determine championship qualification. Why not just simplify and go Provincials followed by a National Championship which is more league based and also where there's fewer but better fixtures and they are given a chance to breath."
Because your solution is not complicated enough!

On a more serious note, the provincial councils don't like this idea for fear the provincial. Championship would be treated similar to the pre season cups. It always goes back to the people who's position exist to support the game, but they are more interested in their own importance.

I like your proposal btw. It could be something great. Would live to see it in my lifetime

Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1440 - 16/04/2024 18:25:18    2538394

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Replying To Whammo86:  "But why the league to determine championship qualification. Why not just simplify and go Provincials followed by a National Championship which is more league based and also where there's fewer but better fixtures and they are given a chance to breath."
The current league is a good and balanced format. 4 balanced enough divisions of 8. I wouldn't rush away from that format. If the league moves to after the provincial championships, the key component is the reward for winning your respective divisions. 3 home games for all division winners is the standout option that I can see.
The All-Ireland groups of 4 is also a reasonably good format. I know some aren't happy about the preliminary quarter-finals but is a fair format with the intention of avoiding dead rubbers as much as possible. If Round 1 winners are given flexibility in the scheduling to meet in Round 3, dead rubbers are completely avoided.
The 3 group games as well gives everyone an opportunity to be road tested. A Tailteann winner coming from Division 3 or 4 will benefit from that as well.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8000 - 16/04/2024 18:45:57    2538402

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The current league is a good and balanced format. 4 balanced enough divisions of 8. I wouldn't rush away from that format. If the league moves to after the provincial championships, the key component is the reward for winning your respective divisions. 3 home games for all division winners is the standout option that I can see.
The All-Ireland groups of 4 is also a reasonably good format. I know some aren't happy about the preliminary quarter-finals but is a fair format with the intention of avoiding dead rubbers as much as possible. If Round 1 winners are given flexibility in the scheduling to meet in Round 3, dead rubbers are completely avoided.
The 3 group games as well gives everyone an opportunity to be road tested. A Tailteann winner coming from Division 3 or 4 will benefit from that as well."
It's a wasted opportunity.

Splitting the field in 4 limits the games between teams at each other's level.

Having a tiered competition and promotion and relegation is an opportunity to play more matches but have them interesting.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4265 - 16/04/2024 19:22:31    2538410

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Replying To Ciaran359:  "Would there be merit in changing the format to match the hurling championship?

Keep Ulster almost as is (Demote Antrim, as the lowest ranked team based on league), and have a combined group of the best 8 teams based on previous years' league position (Dublin, Kerry, Mayo, Galway, Roscommon, Cork, Meath, Louth)

It would keep the tradition of the Ulster championship, and give the other teams competition at their own level.

Bottom team in Ulster is replaced by Antrim, bottom of other group is replaced by second tier competition winner.

Moving into the All-Ireland series, provincial champion goes straight to semi-final, provincial loser goes to quarter final, 3rd and 4th placed teams cross-play in Preliminary QF to play provincial loser.

It probably has no extra benefits over a league-based championship, bar keeping the Ulster championship."
There's some merit to that, but I don't like the 2nd worst Ulster team guaranteed a top berth, a privilege the 9th highest non-Ulster doesn't have.

Working with your plan, I would tweak as follows:
Top 16 should be in Tier 1.
Split Ulster & Non-Ulster teams into groups of 4.
Put any Non-Ulster teams in excess of 8 with Ulster.
Two Provincial Championships - with each team playing 3 own group round robin games - 4 group winners to Provincial Finals.
In lieu of league - teams play all 8 from the other "province" instead - top 8 of 16 to AIC QFs - if either or both Provincial Champs are in the 8, they get a bye instead.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2701 - 16/04/2024 21:54:49    2538444

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I think it'd only kind of work in year 1 and sorts of falls apart quickly after that.

Antrim just get into the Ulster championship every other year.

What if it becomes the case that Ulster gets a lot weaker. Even now is it actually good enough to warrant being half the competition.

We had 4 teams in Tailteann last year for instance.

The weakest part of the hurling format is that it's provincial based and also does bring in some awkward features. Munster is harder to qualify from, promotion and relegation isn't actually fair/purely merit based/decided on the pitch."
I'd like if hurling made groups diverse - 3 Lein & 3 Muns teams in one group and the remaining 5 (or 6) in the other.

After the round robin, the top Munster & Leinster team in each group play Prov Finals and one highest non-Finalist from each to AIC QFs to play Prov losing Finalists.

I'm ok with the current relegation arrangement as I've bought into "legendzxix" point that the top 5 in each retain their status, with the extra "11th" team being replaced each year.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2701 - 16/04/2024 22:08:53    2538449

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Replying To Whammo86:  "It's a wasted opportunity.

Splitting the field in 4 limits the games between teams at each other's level.

Having a tiered competition and promotion and relegation is an opportunity to play more matches but have them interesting."
How is your tiered suggestion going to have four quarter-finals in Croke Park? I don't see the GAA wanting lose those. The league can be completed after the provincial championships if that's what's decided. The league would either fit in the current format, or in time it might merge with the championship if that is considered the direction to take on assessment.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8000 - 17/04/2024 17:14:59    2538669

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Replying To legendzxix:  "How is your tiered suggestion going to have four quarter-finals in Croke Park? I don't see the GAA wanting lose those. The league can be completed after the provincial championships if that's what's decided. The league would either fit in the current format, or in time it might merge with the championship if that is considered the direction to take on assessment."
It's not and even worrying about this is the sort of thinking that's holding the GAA back. We shouldn't worry about preserving the individual elements of the season and should make it a better season as a whole.

Retaining the Croke Park quarterfinals would be at the expense of having more and better (in terms of intensity and impactful) championship league section games.

Maintaining the National league in its current form rather than modifying it to be used as the basis for the championship also reduces the number and impact of the championship games before the knockout stages.

If you really need Croke Park games to fulfill ticketing commitments, you could have tier 1 neutral games in Croke Park (although Dublin's neutral game shouldn't be in Croke Park).

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4265 - 17/04/2024 19:40:34    2538704

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Replying To omahant:  "I'd like if hurling made groups diverse - 3 Lein & 3 Muns teams in one group and the remaining 5 (or 6) in the other.

After the round robin, the top Munster & Leinster team in each group play Prov Finals and one highest non-Finalist from each to AIC QFs to play Prov losing Finalists.

I'm ok with the current relegation arrangement as I've bought into "legendzxix" point that the top 5 in each retain their status, with the extra "11th" team being replaced each year."
That only works until Kerry are in Munster and then would it be fair for them. There's a much easier route to staying up in the other section.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4265 - 17/04/2024 20:05:33    2538708

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ALTERNATIVE SCHEDULING:
Within the current scheduling, the provincial championships have lost their jeopardy or reward. Fitzmaurice and O'Rourke are probably right about moving the provincials before the league.
CURRENT SCHEDULING
If the current schedule is to remain, there needs to be more of a carrot to make finals and to win them. Suggestions for the current scheduled format:
1. Use league for seeding.
2. 8 provincial finalists and 1 Tailteann winner qualifying directly to the group stage.
3. Provincial winners rewarded with 3 home games.
4. 14 counties based on league ranking contesting a playoff round. Top 7 v lower 7 from a seeded draw. 7 winners qualifying for the All-Ireland series. 7 losers off to the Tailteann Cup. The playoffs could be held on the same weekend as the Leinster and Ulster finals.
5. Tier 3 championship for the remaining 9 teams.
Advantages: Now while there are many merited format suggestions, if GAA HQ persist with the provincial format, there has to be reward for making provincial finals. There has to be a carrot for winning provincial finals. There has to be jeopardy e.g. the knockout playoffs for missing out on the provincial finals.
Example playoff contenders: 1. Tyrone, 2. Donegal, 3. Roscommon, 4. Monaghan, 5. Cavan, 6. Cork, 7. Westmeath, 8. Down, 9. Fermanagh, 10. Kildare, 11. Sligo, 12. Antrim, 13. Offaly, 14. Laois.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8000 - 17/04/2024 21:53:36    2538729

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Replying To legendzxix:  "ALTERNATIVE SCHEDULING:
Within the current scheduling, the provincial championships have lost their jeopardy or reward. Fitzmaurice and O'Rourke are probably right about moving the provincials before the league.
CURRENT SCHEDULING
If the current schedule is to remain, there needs to be more of a carrot to make finals and to win them. Suggestions for the current scheduled format:
1. Use league for seeding.
2. 8 provincial finalists and 1 Tailteann winner qualifying directly to the group stage.
3. Provincial winners rewarded with 3 home games.
4. 14 counties based on league ranking contesting a playoff round. Top 7 v lower 7 from a seeded draw. 7 winners qualifying for the All-Ireland series. 7 losers off to the Tailteann Cup. The playoffs could be held on the same weekend as the Leinster and Ulster finals.
5. Tier 3 championship for the remaining 9 teams.
Advantages: Now while there are many merited format suggestions, if GAA HQ persist with the provincial format, there has to be reward for making provincial finals. There has to be a carrot for winning provincial finals. There has to be jeopardy e.g. the knockout playoffs for missing out on the provincial finals.
Example playoff contenders: 1. Tyrone, 2. Donegal, 3. Roscommon, 4. Monaghan, 5. Cavan, 6. Cork, 7. Westmeath, 8. Down, 9. Fermanagh, 10. Kildare, 11. Sligo, 12. Antrim, 13. Offaly, 14. Laois."
Why Tailteann 7 and Tier 3 with 9 - and not 8 in each? - Tier 3 Champ to next year Tailteann minimum?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2701 - 18/04/2024 00:42:29    2538756

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Replying To Whammo86:  "It's not and even worrying about this is the sort of thinking that's holding the GAA back. We shouldn't worry about preserving the individual elements of the season and should make it a better season as a whole.

Retaining the Croke Park quarterfinals would be at the expense of having more and better (in terms of intensity and impactful) championship league section games.

Maintaining the National league in its current form rather than modifying it to be used as the basis for the championship also reduces the number and impact of the championship games before the knockout stages.

If you really need Croke Park games to fulfill ticketing commitments, you could have tier 1 neutral games in Croke Park (although Dublin's neutral game shouldn't be in Croke Park)."
If you want a more knockout championship and the AI finals in September and a better overall season something like this would be sensible.

AI club finals 17th March
30th March NFL1
6th April NFL2
13th April Club
20th April Club
27th April NFL3
4th May NFL4
11th May Provincial Round 1
18th May Club
25th May Club
1st June NFL5
8th June Provincial Quarterfinals
15th June Club
22nd June Club
29th June NFL6
6th July Provincial Semifinals
13th July Club
20th July Club
27th July NFL7
3rd August Provincial Finals and All Ireland Round 1
10th August Break
17th August All Ireland Round 2
24th August All Ireland Round 3
31st August Break
7th September All Ireland Quarterfinals
14th September All Ireland Semifinals
21st September Hurling Final
28th September All Ireland Football Final

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4265 - 18/04/2024 09:36:41    2538773

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Looking at the overall inter county calendar-the season is now broken down into 4 distinct stages/phases.
2023 looked like this.
Phase 1- Provincial leagues/cups [3 weeks]
Phase 2-N.F.L [10 weeks including rest weeks]
Phase 3-Provincial Championships [6 weeks]
Phase 4-All Ireland Championship / Tailteann Cup[11 weeks]
From start to finish there was 30 match days. Potentially a team could play a maximum of 23 games and a minimum of 12 games. So basically there are 2 provincial competitions and 2 national competitions .Could these be reduced to say one provincial and one national competition ?
The match schedule can be rather hectic and irregular for some teams .Take Mayo as an example-played 11 games in 13 weeks-then no games in 6 weeks-then 5 games in 6 weeks.Monaghan this year have a break of 5/6 weeks after losing to Cavan in Ulster.
The All Ireland Championship[the one that really matters ] started on May 20. That was nearly 5 months after the start of the inter county football season.Then for most teams it is all over in 4/5 weeks.There surely has to be a better/alternative way of organizing the season.
One thing holding things back are not the provincial championships as such but the need in having them linked to the A.I.C. Until a couple years ago there was no link between the League and Championship. Did that the affect the attendances or the interest? I dont think so. A lot of talk are about getting rid of the provincials but that would not be the way to go and would not happen anyways. A suggestion would be to merge the provincial cups and championships and to start the season with them. Organize them so that teams would be guaranteed a minimum of 3 games Groups of 3 would be ideal with the top 2 teams advancing to the respective championship knock out stages and the bottom teams in the groups playing off for the Dr. Mckenna Cup/O Byrne Cup/Mcgrath Cup/F.B.D Cup.These secondary cup finals could ideally be played as curtain raisers to the senior final.What about New York in Connacht?-possibly they are given a bye to the F.B.D Cup final. There is always a great appetite for inter county football at the start of the year as it has been 5/6 months since teams have played.So thats the provincials-no link to All Ireland. They have to stand on their own 2 feet.
As regards the A.I.C- There is a structure that already exists within the G.A.A and works fantastically well- that is tiered championships[ Senior Intermediate and Junior] with promotion and relegation between the tiers. It operates in county club championships inter county hurling and Ladies football and camoige. I dont understand why inter county football is such an outlier. Probably tradition and sure look thats always the way it has been.
A idea would be for the N.F.L to be absorbed into the A.I.C. Currently a team is guaranteed 10 games between N.F.L and A.I.C/Tailteann Cup [7+3].The A.I.C would consist of 3 tiers [12--12--8]. Each team would be guaranteed 10 championship games. This would be followed by the knock out stages in each in each tier culminating in 3 All Ireland champions being crowned.
The maximum number of games a team could play[provincials + A.I.C] a team is 19 down from 23 under the current format. The minimum is 13 up from 12. This structure would allow more breathing space in the season as opposed to the current situation.
As it happens Proposal B a few years ago was the provincials at the start of season followed by a league based championship with no link between them. It got about 50% of the vote but didnt get the required amount. It was said at the time that it was the lack of support from the provincial council delegates that prevented the plan from being passed.. Under the current format the provincials have a greatly reduced relevance. All the top teams have a guaranteed place in the A.I.C. In fact looking at last season just 2 teams qualified through the provincials [Clare and Sligo] that hadnt already qualified through their league position. So much for the current relevance of the provincials as regards the A.I.C. The provincials were great in their day[pre qualifier era] as that was the only way of progressing to A.I.C semi finals. That day has long passed.

edu (Mayo) - Posts: 39 - 18/04/2024 14:26:16    2538857

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Replying To edu:  "Looking at the overall inter county calendar-the season is now broken down into 4 distinct stages/phases.
2023 looked like this.
Phase 1- Provincial leagues/cups [3 weeks

Phase 2-N.F.L [10 weeks including rest weeks]
Phase 3-Provincial Championships [6 weeks]
Phase 4-All Ireland Championship / Tailteann Cup[11 weeks]
From start to finish there was 30 match days. Potentially a team could play a maximum of 23 games and a minimum of 12 games. So basically there are 2 provincial competitions and 2 national competitions .Could these be reduced to say one provincial and one national competition ?
The match schedule can be rather hectic and irregular for some teams .Take Mayo as an example-played 11 games in 13 weeks-then no games in 6 weeks-then 5 games in 6 weeks.Monaghan this year have a break of 5/6 weeks after losing to Cavan in Ulster.
The All Ireland Championship[the one that really matters ] started on May 20. That was nearly 5 months after the start of the inter county football season.Then for most teams it is all over in 4/5 weeks.There surely has to be a better/alternative way of organizing the season.
One thing holding things back are not the provincial championships as such but the need in having them linked to the A.I.C. Until a couple years ago there was no link between the League and Championship. Did that the affect the attendances or the interest? I dont think so. A lot of talk are about getting rid of the provincials but that would not be the way to go and would not happen anyways. A suggestion would be to merge the provincial cups and championships and to start the season with them. Organize them so that teams would be guaranteed a minimum of 3 games Groups of 3 would be ideal with the top 2 teams advancing to the respective championship knock out stages and the bottom teams in the groups playing off for the Dr. Mckenna Cup/O Byrne Cup/Mcgrath Cup/F.B.D Cup.These secondary cup finals could ideally be played as curtain raisers to the senior final.What about New York in Connacht?-possibly they are given a bye to the F.B.D Cup final. There is always a great appetite for inter county football at the start of the year as it has been 5/6 months since teams have played.So thats the provincials-no link to All Ireland. They have to stand on their own 2 feet.
As regards the A.I.C- There is a structure that already exists within the G.A.A and works fantastically well- that is tiered championships[ Senior Intermediate and Junior] with promotion and relegation between the tiers. It operates in county club championships inter county hurling and Ladies football and camoige. I dont understand why inter county football is such an outlier. Probably tradition and sure look thats always the way it has been.
A idea would be for the N.F.L to be absorbed into the A.I.C. Currently a team is guaranteed 10 games between N.F.L and A.I.C/Tailteann Cup [7+3].The A.I.C would consist of 3 tiers [12--12--8]. Each team would be guaranteed 10 championship games. This would be followed by the knock out stages in each in each tier culminating in 3 All Ireland champions being crowned.
The maximum number of games a team could play[provincials + A.I.C] a team is 19 down from 23 under the current format. The minimum is 13 up from 12. This structure would allow more breathing space in the season as opposed to the current situation.
As it happens Proposal B a few years ago was the provincials at the start of season followed by a league based championship with no link between them. It got about 50% of the vote but didnt get the required amount. It was said at the time that it was the lack of support from the provincial council delegates that prevented the plan from being passed.. Under the current format the provincials have a greatly reduced relevance. All the top teams have a guaranteed place in the A.I.C. In fact looking at last season just 2 teams qualified through the provincials [Clare and Sligo] that hadnt already qualified through their league position. So much for the current relevance of the provincials as regards the A.I.C. The provincials were great in their day[pre qualifier era] as that was the only way of progressing to A.I.C semi finals. That day has long passed."]Excellent post, I'd be very aligned with your mindset.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4265 - 18/04/2024 14:37:49    2538862

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Replying To omahant:  "Why Tailteann 7 and Tier 3 with 9 - and not 8 in each? - Tier 3 Champ to next year Tailteann minimum?"
Tier 3 winner to Tailteann. 16 in All-Ireland, 8 in Tailteann and 9 in Tier 3 (including New York).

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8000 - 18/04/2024 17:06:12    2538887

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Replying To Whammo86:  "If you want a more knockout championship and the AI finals in September and a better overall season something like this would be sensible.

AI club finals 17th March
30th March NFL1
6th April NFL2
13th April Club
20th April Club
27th April NFL3
4th May NFL4
11th May Provincial Round 1
18th May Club
25th May Club
1st June NFL5
8th June Provincial Quarterfinals
15th June Club
22nd June Club
29th June NFL6
6th July Provincial Semifinals
13th July Club
20th July Club
27th July NFL7
3rd August Provincial Finals and All Ireland Round 1
10th August Break
17th August All Ireland Round 2
24th August All Ireland Round 3
31st August Break
7th September All Ireland Quarterfinals
14th September All Ireland Semifinals
21st September Hurling Final
28th September All Ireland Football Final"
Your going back in time there.

Seeded provincials run at same time as league
League changed to 1A, 1B (6 teams in each), div 2 - 7 teams, div 3A, 3B - 7 teams
semis and finals in div 1 and 3 -


14th Jan - sigerson semis & U20 hurling semi
21 st Jan - All Ireland U20 football semi & Fitzgibbon
28th Jan - sigerson cup/Fitzgibbon weekend
4th Feb Bank holiday weekend - U20 all Ireland finals
11th Feb - league first round (hurling and football)
17th Feb - provincial championships prelim rd
24th Feb - football & hurling league Rd 2
2nd March - football league Rd 3 - break in hurling
9th March - break in football - hurling Rd 4
16th March - provincial q finals (over St Patrick's weekend)
23rd March - football league Rd 4 and hurling break
30th March - football break and hurling Rd 5
6th April - Provincial football semifinals (over Easter weekend)
13th April - football League Rd 5 and hurling league semi-finals
20th April - league Rd 6 + div 1 semi and relegation play off - hurling break
27th April - div 3 semi finals + div 3 relegation playoff - hurling league finals
4th May - provincial football finals (over bank holiday weekend) + div 4 final (before Leinster final)
11th May - div 1, 2 & 3 football finals
18th May - football break and hurling championship first rd
25th May - tailteann cup and and Sam Maguire groups Rd 1
1st June - tailteann and Sam Maguire Rd 2 (neutral venues across bank holiday weekend)
8th June - football break and hurling Rd 2
15th June - final group stage matches and hurling Rd 3
22nd June - football pre lim q finals and hurling break
29th June - football break and hurling round 4
6th July - Sam maguire and tailteann q finals
13th July - hurling round 5
20th July - all Ireland and tailteann semi finals - hurling q finals
27th July - club championship Rd 1 in first 8 counties
3rd August - all Ireland finals (Sam Maguire and tailteann)
10th August - hurling semis + club football championship
17th August - hurling finals + club football championship
24th August - club football championship
31st August - club football championships
7th September - club football championships
14th September - club hurling championships
21st September - club hurling championships
28th September - county finals in football championship plus club hurling championship
05th October - provincial club prelim rounds (football) plus club hurling championship
12th September - club hurling championship
19th September - football provincial club q finals plus huing club county finals
26th September - provincial hurling prelim rd
03rd October - provincial hurling q finals
10th October - provincial club semi finals
17th October - provincial club hurling semis
24th October - start of U20 football intercounty championships (provincial prelim round)
31st October - all Ireland club finals
7th November - U20 hurling prelim Rd
14th November - U20 football & Fitzgibbon cup
21st November - U20 hurling & sigerson
28th November - U20 football & fitzgibbon
05th December - U20 hurling & sigerson
12th December - U20 football prov finals & Fitzgibbon
19th December - U20 hurling prov finals & Sigerson

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1157 - 18/04/2024 19:43:45    2538913

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While there are a lot of games currently, the big gripe is about the lack of a rest weekend after the league finals. Fitzmaurice and Murphy, who are on the Football Review Committee, are advocates for provincial championships before the league. That rest weekend is still the conundrum to be solved.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8000 - 18/04/2024 20:34:56    2538918

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Replying To legendzxix:  "While there are a lot of games currently, the big gripe is about the lack of a rest weekend after the league finals. Fitzmaurice and Murphy, who are on the Football Review Committee, are advocates for provincial championships before the league. That rest weekend is still the conundrum to be solved."
Counties wouldn't accept a proposal to abolish League Finals.
How about playing Provincials in the same timeframe as the NFL?
Like Soccer Cup competitions set aside certain weekends for Provincials.

That would eliminate the 6 or 7 weeks some teams have to wait e g Monaghan for the AI series.

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1578 - 19/04/2024 09:20:52    2538960

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "Counties wouldn't accept a proposal to abolish League Finals.
How about playing Provincials in the same timeframe as the NFL?
Like Soccer Cup competitions set aside certain weekends for Provincials.

That would eliminate the 6 or 7 weeks some teams have to wait e g Monaghan for the AI series."
It is a fair shout. O'Rourke is saying though that the provincials should be complete so everyone knows what league position they are chasing to qualify for the All-Ireland.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8000 - 19/04/2024 10:36:41    2538981

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Replying To legendzxix:  "It is a fair shout. O'Rourke is saying though that the provincials should be complete so everyone knows what league position they are chasing to qualify for the All-Ireland."
Some teams would have 4 games in February, some 2 or 3 and half the Counties 1 game.
Are teams to be up to serious fitness and competitive levels in Jan/Feb?
Also what's the weather like in NY last weekend in January?

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1578 - 19/04/2024 11:02:59    2538989

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "Some teams would have 4 games in February, some 2 or 3 and half the Counties 1 game.
Are teams to be up to serious fitness and competitive levels in Jan/Feb?
Also what's the weather like in NY last weekend in January?"
I personally don't think NY should be in the championship at all. It is a drain on limited resources having to go there.

eslinchickenmaryland (Leitrim) - Posts: 78 - 19/04/2024 12:01:45    2539005

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