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Football Format Changes Discussion

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Players wanted more games. They have got the games they wanted."
What use is having more games if the outcome is the same…. The GAA want more games to generate more revenue but all to the detriment of the game itself.. all becoming very boring… supporters voting with their feet…

ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 2013 - 13/04/2024 12:35:31    2537631

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Replying To ForeverBlue2:  "What use is having more games if the outcome is the same…. The GAA want more games to generate more revenue but all to the detriment of the game itself.. all becoming very boring… supporters voting with their feet…"
17k AI semi Final in 1982.
19k AI semi Final 1985.
Can't bate the good oul days .....

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1496 - 13/04/2024 13:31:40    2537636

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Replying To ForeverBlue2:  "What use is having more games if the outcome is the same…. The GAA want more games to generate more revenue but all to the detriment of the game itself.. all becoming very boring… supporters voting with their feet…"
Supporters are voting on their feet because there's only about 5 good match ups a season because the top teams are kept apart. Get the top teams playing each other more and we'll get more of the good games. A lot of these teams can turn each other over so I don't think the outcome is always the same. It is if it's Dublin v Meath or Kerry v Cork. It's going to be a lot less so if Galway, Mayo, Tyrone, Kerry, Derry are mixing it with one another week in week out and with games in different venues that Croke Park.

Straight knockout isn't good in the long run for weaker teams either, they'll end up averaging like 1.5 games a season with the best teams getting more like 3.5 championship games a season. Yes in a given year they could cause a shock but it gets less and less likely over time and how do they actually really raise their level if they are playing competitive fixtures at the right time of year and with a fair opportunity to progress and build over time. It doesn't happen in a knockout style format, it might in a more league based championship.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4256 - 13/04/2024 14:55:41    2537649

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "17k AI semi Final in 1982.
19k AI semi Final 1985.
Can't bate the good oul days ....."
That's quite remarkable. I looked up a few more years and semi-final attendance ranged from 25-35k. Semi's didn't seem to attract 40k or more until the last few years of the decade with games involving either Meath or Dublin attracting the larger numbers.

MachaireConnacht (Roscommon) - Posts: 837 - 13/04/2024 15:00:09    2537650

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The GAA have a reasonably good system with the groups of 4. Group winners have a weekend off before the quarter-finals. 2nd and 3rd playoff for a quarter-final spot but have to play 3 weeks in a row. The minor wrinkles to be fixed are that weekend off after the league and an enticing carrot for provincial winners.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7943 - 13/04/2024 15:39:21    2537657

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Replying To legendzxix:  "I don't think the GAA are going to rush away from the group stage and preliminary quarter-finals. If they can allow for the flexibility I mentioned in the scheduling, Round 1 winners wouldn't meet until Round 3. That would setup the Round 3 drama of two teams potentially in a quarter-final playoff and two teams in an elimination playoff last chance saloon to make the preliminary quarter-final.
The GAA's obsession with neutral venues is a bit bewildering. Players have said the same. It would be fair enough to reward division winners and provincial winners with an extra home game."
There should be no argument against keeping the two Rd 1 winners apart until Rd 3 - makes a lot of sense - apart from the VERY small issue of not knowing the match sequence before the start.

You could even draw up the desired schedule backwards - you'd want (seeds based solely on league ranking):

Rd 3
1v2 & 3v4

Rd 2
2v3 (probably), so 1v4 as well.

This leaves
Rd1
1v3 & 2v4
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Ultimately, I'd prefer one 12-game league, with a 16-8-8 structure, combining all Prov ties (incl inter-div), leading into a 3-tier AIC. More inter-div games (mostly div 2v3) added to round out 12 games for all.

Top half of each league tier to own tier AIC (1, 2, or 3), with bottom half of divs 1 & 2 entering the AIC one tier below (so for AIC, 8-12-8).

AIC Tier 1 & 3 has QFs, SFs & Final (maybe there should a double chance for 4 teams in each with 4 others in PQFs).

Tier 2 has 4 byes (div 1 9th/10th & div 2 top 2), with other 8 to PQFs, followed by QFs, SFs & Final.

Tier 2 QF8 & Tier 3 SF4 play in the div above in the following league.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2664 - 13/04/2024 20:26:59    2537696

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "17k AI semi Final in 1982.
19k AI semi Final 1985.
Can't bate the good oul days ....."
You wasted your time trying to come up with attendance figures from 50 years ago…. Why.. get in the real world…. Modern day attendances are dropping year on year because of the rubbish on offer…. Don't keep looking back… you will only fall over… good lad

ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 2013 - 14/04/2024 00:23:07    2537712

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Replying To ForeverBlue2:  "You wasted your time trying to come up with attendance figures from 50 years ago…. Why.. get in the real world…. Modern day attendances are dropping year on year because of the rubbish on offer…. Don't keep looking back… you will only fall over… good lad"
Son, you must have fallen over a few times then.

ORIELMAN85 (Monaghan) - Posts: 151 - 14/04/2024 02:59:56    2537713

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12-12-12 is the only way to go.

2 groups of 6. 1st to semi 2nd and 3rd to quarters. Last to relegation playoff.

New York, Kilkenny, British winners and USGAA/Chicago, British runners up can make the 12 up in Junior

skirge7 (UK) - Posts: 254 - 14/04/2024 08:34:21    2537717

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The GAA have a reasonably good system with the groups of 4. Group winners have a weekend off before the quarter-finals. 2nd and 3rd playoff for a quarter-final spot but have to play 3 weeks in a row. The minor wrinkles to be fixed are that weekend off after the league and an enticing carrot for provincial winners."
The current system is 50% correct. Just needs a few glaringly obvious tweaks.
1. Stop giving provincial losing finalists a place in the senior championship if the haven't earned it in the league
2. Hold the provincial championships first so the lopsided nature of them doesn't continue to carry over to the all Ireland series
3. Don't give provincial champions any more advantages, as it keeps the Kerry/Dublin provincial advantages (hand trophy) and gives them an advantage over everyone else, every year.
4. Lengthen the season so the senior final is the last weekend in August, but all the counties who are still playing in August to delay their club championships and enter the provincial club championships later
5. Give counties who get to senior club All Ireland stages, a later entry point into the intercounty provincial championships


If the above applied this year, Derry would have entered the Ulster championship at senior final stage (because of their club success). That match would be the first week in March and the Ulster final would be on St Patrick's weekend.

The league would have 5 rounds played by end of April and be finished by end of May.

The last 16 round robin would take place in June, last 16 and qfinals July and semis and finals in August.

Derry (as All Ireland winners) would run their club season in September and October and their club champions would enter the Ulster club championship at semi final stage in Mid November

All very fair

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1140 - 14/04/2024 08:42:09    2537718

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Replying To ForeverBlue2:  "You wasted your time trying to come up with attendance figures from 50 years ago…. Why.. get in the real world…. Modern day attendances are dropping year on year because of the rubbish on offer…. Don't keep looking back… you will only fall over… good lad"
Don't give up the day job

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1496 - 14/04/2024 10:31:03    2537728

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A curve ball is coming down the tracks from the provincial councils. They are likely to push for a format change that sees provincial champions go straight to the quarter-finals. Within counties then there probably is support growing for placing the provincial championships before the league. The current format is the be given 3 years. This being year 2 of 3. There will be an interesting debate either at the end of this year or over the course of next year.
If the leagues are put after the provincial championships, I'll say it again, there has to be an incentive for winning each division than just settling for the top 2 or 4 depending on promotion or seeding targets. One option is that all division winners get 3 home games each in the group stages. Division winners then would have to be drawn in different groups. If there are one or two groups without a division winner, both Seeds 1 and 2 should get an extra home game each. This can similarly apply in the Tailteann, and a Third Tier of formed for more accessible access for Division 4 counties to Croke Park.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7943 - 14/04/2024 17:39:43    2537771

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Replying To legendzxix:  "A curve ball is coming down the tracks from the provincial councils. They are likely to push for a format change that sees provincial champions go straight to the quarter-finals. Within counties then there probably is support growing for placing the provincial championships before the league. The current format is the be given 3 years. This being year 2 of 3. There will be an interesting debate either at the end of this year or over the course of next year.
If the leagues are put after the provincial championships, I'll say it again, there has to be an incentive for winning each division than just settling for the top 2 or 4 depending on promotion or seeding targets. One option is that all division winners get 3 home games each in the group stages. Division winners then would have to be drawn in different groups. If there are one or two groups without a division winner, both Seeds 1 and 2 should get an extra home game each. This can similarly apply in the Tailteann, and a Third Tier of formed for more accessible access for Division 4 counties to Croke Park."
Why would they.
Kerry and dubs don't get a real match now till after provincials.
Then they get a decent team ag home to blow off cob webs.
Last year
Kerry lost to mayo and
Dubs blew away dirty diesel v ros in a draw.
After that they kicked on and got stronger with the 2 remaining matches like safety blankets.
If they had gone straight to quarters and them results happened it would have been scrap the provincials there worthless to win for prep.

OhtobeARossie (Roscommon) - Posts: 1764 - 14/04/2024 18:47:27    2537794

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Replying To OhtobeARossie:  "Why would they.
Kerry and dubs don't get a real match now till after provincials.
Then they get a decent team ag home to blow off cob webs.
Last year
Kerry lost to mayo and
Dubs blew away dirty diesel v ros in a draw.
After that they kicked on and got stronger with the 2 remaining matches like safety blankets.
If they had gone straight to quarters and them results happened it would have been scrap the provincials there worthless to win for prep."
I agree. The way the provincial councils see it, there is no reward for winning the provincial championship. They want a clear reward for winning the province.
Ironically if provincial councils used the league for seeding provincial draws, they would cement the league's position before the provincial championships. The provincial councils don't want to do that however and support for league after the provincial championships is gaining a bit of traction as a result! Talk about shooting themselves in the foot!

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7943 - 14/04/2024 19:49:30    2537812

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Replying To legendzxix:  "I agree. The way the provincial councils see it, there is no reward for winning the provincial championship. They want a clear reward for winning the province.
Ironically if provincial councils used the league for seeding provincial draws, they would cement the league's position before the provincial championships. The provincial councils don't want to do that however and support for league after the provincial championships is gaining a bit of traction as a result! Talk about shooting themselves in the foot!"
Are Provincial Councils needed any more in this internet age?

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1496 - 14/04/2024 21:21:07    2537843

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "Are Provincial Councils needed any more in this internet age?"
Of course
You should be able for 3 competitions during the year.
Some of main issues with inter county season structure is counties playung far too many gàmes too early in year

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3532 - 14/04/2024 22:17:09    2537858

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Would there be merit in changing the format to match the hurling championship?

Keep Ulster almost as is (Demote Antrim, as the lowest ranked team based on league), and have a combined group of the best 8 teams based on previous years' league position (Dublin, Kerry, Mayo, Galway, Roscommon, Cork, Meath, Louth)

It would keep the tradition of the Ulster championship, and give the other teams competition at their own level.

Bottom team in Ulster is replaced by Antrim, bottom of other group is replaced by second tier competition winner.

Moving into the All-Ireland series, provincial champion goes straight to semi-final, provincial loser goes to quarter final, 3rd and 4th placed teams cross-play in Preliminary QF to play provincial loser.

It probably has no extra benefits over a league-based championship, bar keeping the Ulster championship.

Ciaran359 (Galway) - Posts: 9 - 15/04/2024 07:04:58    2537882

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What if we scrap the National League and the remold the Provincial Championships into a League format,

- Top 2 teams in each Province qualify for All Ireland series and contest a Provincial Final.
- Bottom 2 teams in each Province automatically enter Tailteann Cup.
- Remaining 16 teams play one single seeded knock-out round, with 8 winners enter All Ireland series, 8 losers entering Tailteann Cup.

For Ulster, this would mean 9 games for all teams before the All Ireland Championship or Tailteann Cup Championship.
Currently if a Ulster team wins the National League and wins Ulster from Preliminary round, they play 12 games.

This approach would free up time on the Calendar, keeps the Provincial Championship and league finals, and might finally help get the GAA to drive improvements in Leinster and Munster to make them more competitive.

Commodore (Donegal) - Posts: 1123 - 15/04/2024 08:45:37    2537894

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Nearly all other team sports in the world have the same competition format for their main competition. You never hear a word of discontent. I wonder if there's something there to explore?

Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1429 - 15/04/2024 08:52:16    2537897

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Replying To KillingFields:  "Of course
You should be able for 3 competitions during the year.
Some of main issues with inter county season structure is counties playung far too many gàmes too early in year"
I was a traditionalist but I'm losing interest in the provincial championships in the current time window. Fitzmaurice is probably right that the provincial championships should be before the league.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7943 - 15/04/2024 08:56:11    2537899

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