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Football Format Changes Discussion

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Replying To Rolo2010:  "Right idea but they messed it up by having Div 3 and 4 teams qualifying. Even they revised version still had it. I think you could have gotten it over the line if lets say 5 Div 1 teams qualified plus 2 or 3 from Div 1B. Still not ideal but at least it would be something like the Joe McDonagh."
5 teams from Division 1 would not get it over the line. If the provincial championships move to before the league, simply allow the 4 provincial winners to qualify for the All-Ireland series and possibly offer the incentive of an extra home game. The league would similarly need a carrot for winning the league than just settling for the top 4. The winners of the 4 divisions should be rewarded with an extra home game in the All-Ireland or Tailteann.
Counties outside the provincial winners and division winners could receive an extra home game by luck of the draw. For obvious reasons there can only be two teams in a group with the reward of an extra home game.
The All-Ireland series being 11 league qualifiers, 4 provincial winners from the spring and 1 Tailteann winner. All seeding in the All-Ireland and Tailteann should be based on league ranking. No need for league finals. Bring in a Tier 3 if Division 4 counties want an accessible route to Croke Park. Job done!

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7943 - 11/04/2024 21:17:36    2537426

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Replying To legendzxix:  "5 teams from Division 1 would not get it over the line. If the provincial championships move to before the league, simply allow the 4 provincial winners to qualify for the All-Ireland series and possibly offer the incentive of an extra home game. The league would similarly need a carrot for winning the league than just settling for the top 4. The winners of the 4 divisions should be rewarded with an extra home game in the All-Ireland or Tailteann.
Counties outside the provincial winners and division winners could receive an extra home game by luck of the draw. For obvious reasons there can only be two teams in a group with the reward of an extra home game.
The All-Ireland series being 11 league qualifiers, 4 provincial winners from the spring and 1 Tailteann winner. All seeding in the All-Ireland and Tailteann should be based on league ranking. No need for league finals. Bring in a Tier 3 if Division 4 counties want an accessible route to Croke Park. Job done!"
More chance than any of the stuff you post on here.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 739 - 11/04/2024 21:34:41    2537430

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Replying To legendzxix:  "5 teams from Division 1 would not get it over the line. If the provincial championships move to before the league, simply allow the 4 provincial winners to qualify for the All-Ireland series and possibly offer the incentive of an extra home game. The league would similarly need a carrot for winning the league than just settling for the top 4. The winners of the 4 divisions should be rewarded with an extra home game in the All-Ireland or Tailteann.
Counties outside the provincial winners and division winners could receive an extra home game by luck of the draw. For obvious reasons there can only be two teams in a group with the reward of an extra home game.
The All-Ireland series being 11 league qualifiers, 4 provincial winners from the spring and 1 Tailteann winner. All seeding in the All-Ireland and Tailteann should be based on league ranking. No need for league finals. Bring in a Tier 3 if Division 4 counties want an accessible route to Croke Park. Job done!"
You could offer a carrot to the Spring Prov Champs - get to the Summer League top 11 and earn a bye as well.

Separately - how about a 3-tier league leading to a 3-tier AIC - 16-8-8 (Divs 1A/1B, 2 & 3) - after 7 league games, AIC Tier 1 has top 4 from each group to Playoffs (best 2 from each group get a "double chance"); Tier 2 KO 12, with Div 2 top 4 plus bottom 8 from tier above (best 2 from each div get byes, QF 8 earn or stay in Div 1); Tier 3 Playoffs, with Div 3 top 4 and bottom 4 from tier above (best 2 from each div get a "double chance", SF 4 earn to stay in Div 2).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2664 - 12/04/2024 01:17:30    2537446

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Replying To Rolo2010:  "Right idea but they messed it up by having Div 3 and 4 teams qualifying. Even they revised version still had it. I think you could have gotten it over the line if lets say 5 Div 1 teams qualified plus 2 or 3 from Div 1B. Still not ideal but at least it would be something like the Joe McDonagh."
Decoupled provincials followed by 2 tiers of 2 groups of 8.

It being tied to 4 divisions of 8 was the downfall of the proposal, it's very tough to have an open enough field without ending up with stupid things like lower league teams qualifying at the expense of higher placed teams. I don't like the McDonagh arrangement in hurling. It takes away some of the jeopardy of getting relegated/getting relegated could even be an advantage for a team that's unlikely to progress in the current year.

4 divisions of 8 works really well for a secondary competition because there's that high bar to get to division 1 and the rewards all along the grades is to get better quality games to prep for later in the year.

The old style league of 2 tiers of 2 groups of 8 didn't really have that intensity so much because it was much easier to retain division 1 status and maybe some teams could have different priorities for the league and go for it a bit less.

That wouldn't be an issue for a championship based on a format like that.

The beauty of the format is its simplicity and also it's relatable in terms of the history of the GAA where for the most part the NFL has been some form of groups of 8 tiered in some manner.

The big issue with a 2 tier 2 groups of 8 All Ireland would be to how to keep the competition exciting for the very weakest teams unlikely to be in the promotion picture.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4256 - 12/04/2024 10:04:13    2537472

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I mean, the 8 months of action has to be fit into 6 months though because even with that club county championships are still only being given 3 months.

That's the big issue in the structure for me. There are too many games. The season needs to be simplified.

League, league finals, Provincial championships, All Ireland group stages moving to a 12 team knockout round is all too much.

You can tell it's a season designed by committee where zero sacrifice is being made to any individual stakeholder.

It's like when Homer Simpson designed a car for his long lost brother and just kept adding bits to it."
I think you're right here. We've forced more games into less time.

For what its worth - I think you can play an 8 month club season (Aug - March) and an 8 month inter-county season (Jan - Aug) in 12 months with little overlap between both (limited to All Ireland County Finalists (60 players) and Provincial Club winners (120 players)).

We can have certainty of fixtures for Clubs by introducing a rule that if your county qualifies for the All Ireland final your Club champions will get a bye to the Provincial Semi Finals. The impact to the Club would be 2 counties needing to postpone round one of their county championship to support their county team in an All Ireland final.

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 295 - 12/04/2024 11:38:29    2537499

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Replying To brianb:  "I think you're right here. We've forced more games into less time.

For what its worth - I think you can play an 8 month club season (Aug - March) and an 8 month inter-county season (Jan - Aug) in 12 months with little overlap between both (limited to All Ireland County Finalists (60 players) and Provincial Club winners (120 players)).

We can have certainty of fixtures for Clubs by introducing a rule that if your county qualifies for the All Ireland final your Club champions will get a bye to the Provincial Semi Finals. The impact to the Club would be 2 counties needing to postpone round one of their county championship to support their county team in an All Ireland final."
I've said on here that I think the split season is too rigid and whilst it helps the club game compared to what had come before, it is kind of the case that the club game has gotten the short end of the stick.

Intercounty has 27 weekends in its window, Club I guess 22/23 if we have just 2/3 dead weekends around Christmas.

Interprovincial and All Ireland club is played by a small percentage of the people any given year as you point out.

Long story short Its really not a good season that's being provided for most club players.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4256 - 12/04/2024 12:36:34    2537513

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Replying To omahant:  "Bring back your AIC KO:
Rd 1 - lowest 16 "non-Prov Final" teams.
Rd 2 - next lowest 8 "non-Prov Champ" teams v 8 Rd 1 winners.
Rd of 16- remaining 8 "top" teams v 8 Rd 2 winners.
QFs, SFs, Final."
Yeah I think if we want a more knockout type championship something like this would make sense.

I personally would like more big games in championship between the top teams and a league phase that had more tension/jeopardy.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4256 - 12/04/2024 13:06:18    2537518

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I've said on here that I think the split season is too rigid and whilst it helps the club game compared to what had come before, it is kind of the case that the club game has gotten the short end of the stick.

Intercounty has 27 weekends in its window, Club I guess 22/23 if we have just 2/3 dead weekends around Christmas.

Interprovincial and All Ireland club is played by a small percentage of the people any given year as you point out.

Long story short Its really not a good season that's being provided for most club players."
I do agree. I'd add that the majority of Club football played here in Kildare anyway is part of the "unimportant" league - and played without the county players. Its not as if there is no club football played while the inter-county season is going on.

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 295 - 12/04/2024 14:36:43    2537539

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Replying To brianb:  "I do agree. I'd add that the majority of Club football played here in Kildare anyway is part of the "unimportant" league - and played without the county players. Its not as if there is no club football played while the inter-county season is going on."
Even in the counties that treat their leagues with some prestige it isn't the same. In some counties their league have almost no prestige.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4256 - 12/04/2024 15:07:56    2537546

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Yeah I think if we want a more knockout type championship something like this would make sense.

I personally would like more big games in championship between the top teams and a league phase that had more tension/jeopardy."
The 4 divs of 8 prior to that KO, with AIC seeding decided post promotion/relegation would be good - could also have Rd 1 losers to Tier 3 & Rd 2 losers to Tier 2, with those Tier Champs guaranteed Div 3 & 2 berths for the next League-Championship divisions, respectively.

Or maybe 16-8-8, divs 1A/1B, 2 & 3.

I like inter-linking divisions one rank apart for the AIC - say, with 16-8-8, top half of each division advance to own AIC tier, with the lower half of the division above merging into the AIC tier below.
So 16-8-8, becomes 8-12-8 (div 3 bottom 4 are out).

With top 5 of each group/div advancing, this becomes
10-11-8 (div 3 bottom 3 are out).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2664 - 12/04/2024 15:43:30    2537548

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One problem with provincial championships is that there is no qualifying standard. If they solved that, the provincial championships would be easily completed over 5 weekends with all counties playing every second weekend in the four provincial championships.
ULSTER 8
Derry, Tyrone, Donegal, Armagh.
Monaghan, Cavan, Down, Fermanagh.
LEINSTER 8
Dublin, Meath, Louth, Westmeath.
Kildare, Offaly, Laois, Wicklow.
MUNSTER 4
Kerry, Cork.
Clare, Limerick.
CONNACHT 4
Mayo, Galway.
Roscommon, Sligo.
PROVINCIAL TIER 2 - Remaining 9
Antrim, Leitrim, Wexford, Longford.
Carlow, Tipperary, London, Waterford, New York.
BASIC QUALIFYING STANDARD
Limit Ulster to 8, Leinster to 8, Munster to 4 and Connacht to 4. The other 9 compete in Provincial Tier 2. The 4 provincial winners and Provincial Tier 2 winner should be guaranteed a place in their provincial championship of the following year. Everyone else qualifying through the next year's league placing.
ALL-IRELAND QUALIFYING
The 4 provincial winners should be rewarded 3 home games. Everyone else 1 home game. Only the 2 provincial runners-up from Leinster and Ulster should qualify as they have to get bye two rounds to make the final. Similar to the Tailteann winner, the provincial runners-up should be seeded on league placing. The remaining 9 All-Ireland places through league ranking.
TAILTEANN AND TIER 3
The Tailteann and Tier 3 should be 2 groups of 4. These can run parallel to the All-Ireland series with the finals as curtain raisers to All-Ireland semi-finals.
FREE WEEKEND CREATED AFTER LEAGUE FINALS
-1. League finals.
0. Weekend off.
1. Leinster and Ulster quarter-finals. Provincial Tier 2 quarter-finals involving London and New York, and one preliminary round.
2. Connacht and Munster semi-finals. Remaining Provincial Tier 2 quarter-finals.
3. Leinster, Ulster and Provincial Tier 2 semi-finals.
4. Connacht and Munster finals .
5. Leinster, Ulster and Provincial Tier 2 finals.
6. Weekend off.
7. All-Ireland, Tailteann and Tier 3 Group Stage Round 1.
8. All-Ireland, Tailteann and Tier 3 Group Stage Round 2.
9. Weekend off.
10. All-Ireland, Tailteann and Tier 3 Group Stage Round 3.
11. All-Ireland Preliminary quarter-finals. Tailteann and Tier 3 quarter-finals.
12. All-Ireland quarter-finals. Tailteann and Tier 3 semi-finals.
13. Weekend off.
14. All-Ireland semi-finals. Tailteann and Tier 3 finals.
15. Weekend off.
16. All-Ireland Senior Final. (All-Ireland Junior final as curtain raiser.)

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7943 - 12/04/2024 15:49:38    2537550

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Replying To legendzxix:  "One problem with provincial championships is that there is no qualifying standard. If they solved that, the provincial championships would be easily completed over 5 weekends with all counties playing every second weekend in the four provincial championships.
ULSTER 8
Derry, Tyrone, Donegal, Armagh.
Monaghan, Cavan, Down, Fermanagh.
LEINSTER 8
Dublin, Meath, Louth, Westmeath.
Kildare, Offaly, Laois, Wicklow.
MUNSTER 4
Kerry, Cork.
Clare, Limerick.
CONNACHT 4
Mayo, Galway.
Roscommon, Sligo.
PROVINCIAL TIER 2 - Remaining 9
Antrim, Leitrim, Wexford, Longford.
Carlow, Tipperary, London, Waterford, New York.
BASIC QUALIFYING STANDARD
Limit Ulster to 8, Leinster to 8, Munster to 4 and Connacht to 4. The other 9 compete in Provincial Tier 2. The 4 provincial winners and Provincial Tier 2 winner should be guaranteed a place in their provincial championship of the following year. Everyone else qualifying through the next year's league placing.
ALL-IRELAND QUALIFYING
The 4 provincial winners should be rewarded 3 home games. Everyone else 1 home game. Only the 2 provincial runners-up from Leinster and Ulster should qualify as they have to get bye two rounds to make the final. Similar to the Tailteann winner, the provincial runners-up should be seeded on league placing. The remaining 9 All-Ireland places through league ranking.
TAILTEANN AND TIER 3
The Tailteann and Tier 3 should be 2 groups of 4. These can run parallel to the All-Ireland series with the finals as curtain raisers to All-Ireland semi-finals.
FREE WEEKEND CREATED AFTER LEAGUE FINALS
-1. League finals.
0. Weekend off.
1. Leinster and Ulster quarter-finals. Provincial Tier 2 quarter-finals involving London and New York, and one preliminary round.
2. Connacht and Munster semi-finals. Remaining Provincial Tier 2 quarter-finals.
3. Leinster, Ulster and Provincial Tier 2 semi-finals.
4. Connacht and Munster finals .
5. Leinster, Ulster and Provincial Tier 2 finals.
6. Weekend off.
7. All-Ireland, Tailteann and Tier 3 Group Stage Round 1.
8. All-Ireland, Tailteann and Tier 3 Group Stage Round 2.
9. Weekend off.
10. All-Ireland, Tailteann and Tier 3 Group Stage Round 3.
11. All-Ireland Preliminary quarter-finals. Tailteann and Tier 3 quarter-finals.
12. All-Ireland quarter-finals. Tailteann and Tier 3 semi-finals.
13. Weekend off.
14. All-Ireland semi-finals. Tailteann and Tier 3 finals.
15. Weekend off.
16. All-Ireland Senior Final. (All-Ireland Junior final as curtain raiser.)"
You're as bad as me for cutting/pasting, repeating, trying to convince your audience of your magic formulae, only to realise there is no spring board and the Emperor has no clothes :)

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2664 - 12/04/2024 16:08:21    2537555

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Replying To omahant:  "You're as bad as me for cutting/pasting, repeating, trying to convince your audience of your magic formulae, only to realise there is no spring board and the Emperor has no clothes :)"
Maybe! ;-)
The provincial first rounds last week didn't bring much crowds nor generate much interest. Just seems like the current provincial first rounds should be for the chop. The current fixture calendar would then flow much better.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7943 - 12/04/2024 16:54:31    2537562

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Provincials before league, winners advance to All-Ireland series.
The top 16 and bottom 16 play a knock-out championship in Summer,
win or go home. No need for groups after the league.

suckvalleypaddy (Galway) - Posts: 1682 - 12/04/2024 21:24:13    2537579

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Replying To suckvalleypaddy:  "Provincials before league, winners advance to All-Ireland series.
The top 16 and bottom 16 play a knock-out championship in Summer,
win or go home. No need for groups after the league."
If the league is after provincial championships, just as provincial councils want a carrot for winning the provincial championships, there has to be a carrot for winning the league than just settling for a top 4 position. If the All-Ireland and Tailteann were knockout as you suggest, possibly each division winner should have guarantee of home advantage, with the others my luck of the draw.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7943 - 12/04/2024 23:31:59    2537594

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Replying To suckvalleypaddy:  "Provincials before league, winners advance to All-Ireland series.
The top 16 and bottom 16 play a knock-out championship in Summer,
win or go home. No need for groups after the league."
AIC Tier 1
3 League winners Divs 1, 2, 3
4 Prov Champs
1 Prior Year Tailteann Cup Champ
8 Other top League places

Tailteann Cup winner also promoted to Div 2, if not a Div 3 Finalist (possible 3 down from Div 2).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2664 - 13/04/2024 00:53:09    2537599

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Just revert to a straight knockout Championship and cut out all the nonsense…. GAA just upping the amount of games to get fools to pay in ( even they are starting to wise up ). The same teams will end up in the semi finals or final each year in any case… People are just fed up with the lack of jeopardy in the Championship….all just suits the strongest teams…!

ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 2013 - 13/04/2024 08:29:28    2537612

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Replying To omahant:  "AIC Tier 1
3 League winners Divs 1, 2, 3
4 Prov Champs
1 Prior Year Tailteann Cup Champ
8 Other top League places

Tailteann Cup winner also promoted to Div 2, if not a Div 3 Finalist (possible 3 down from Div 2)."
I don't think the GAA are going to rush away from the group stage and preliminary quarter-finals. If they can allow for the flexibility I mentioned in the scheduling, Round 1 winners wouldn't meet until Round 3. That would setup the Round 3 drama of two teams potentially in a quarter-final playoff and two teams in an elimination playoff last chance saloon to make the preliminary quarter-final.
The GAA's obsession with neutral venues is a bit bewildering. Players have said the same. It would be fair enough to reward division winners and provincial winners with an extra home game.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7943 - 13/04/2024 09:19:13    2537613

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Replying To ForeverBlue2:  "Just revert to a straight knockout Championship and cut out all the nonsense…. GAA just upping the amount of games to get fools to pay in ( even they are starting to wise up ). The same teams will end up in the semi finals or final each year in any case… People are just fed up with the lack of jeopardy in the Championship….all just suits the strongest teams…!"
95% of Congress voted for the current system.
They wont be going back to 16 teams training for 9 months for 1 game.

Maybe they should go back to 17 aside and AI Finals running 2 years behind schedule?!!

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1496 - 13/04/2024 11:30:58    2537621

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Replying To ForeverBlue2:  "Just revert to a straight knockout Championship and cut out all the nonsense…. GAA just upping the amount of games to get fools to pay in ( even they are starting to wise up ). The same teams will end up in the semi finals or final each year in any case… People are just fed up with the lack of jeopardy in the Championship….all just suits the strongest teams…!"
Players wanted more games. They have got the games they wanted.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7943 - 13/04/2024 11:51:44    2537624

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