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2024 NFL Division 4 Discussion thread

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Replying To joeman123:  "It was a foul and I think all the furore about it is a little over the top from people who weren't there.

The disallowed goal for Leitrim was very debatable.

Anyway it is time to focus on the next round.


Wexford are a strong team and we wish them well."
Every single neutral I've heard and read giving an opinion on it said it wasn't anywhere near a penalty, I wasn't at the game itself so won't give any opinion on the remainder of the officiating.

TerribleFootwork (Wexford) - Posts: 1760 - 21/02/2024 10:19:45    2527334

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Assume Laois top the group. Carlow and Longford have 100 % control for second place. Leitrim and Wexford both have 2 of last 3 away, and for Leitrim that includes Laois.


Carlow: 3 games left = v Wex, @ Lgf v Lon
Win all 3 guaranteed promotion

Longford: 3 games left = v Lei, v Car @ Wex
Win all 3 guaranteed promotion

Leitrim 3 games left = @ Lgf @ Lao v Tipp
Win all 3 - need Carlow to drop 1 point

Wexford 3 games left = @ Car @ Tipp vs Lgf
Win all 3 - need Leitrim to drop 3 points, or Leitrim drop 2 and ahead of Car/Lei on points difference

Might be a situation where Tipp get through but looks unlikely ( didnt try to figure out if possible) but well able to beat any of the above - and will be playing quite freely.

Solo_Run (Leitrim) - Posts: 211 - 25/02/2024 20:40:27    2528114

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Wide open could go any way yet. Laois will top the division but 2nd very much up for grabs. Interesting few weeks ahead

carlo (Carlow) - Posts: 219 - 25/02/2024 20:44:54    2528117

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Replying To Solo_Run:  "Assume Laois top the group. Carlow and Longford have 100 % control for second place. Leitrim and Wexford both have 2 of last 3 away, and for Leitrim that includes Laois.


Carlow: 3 games left = v Wex, @ Lgf v Lon
Win all 3 guaranteed promotion

Longford: 3 games left = v Lei, v Car @ Wex
Win all 3 guaranteed promotion

Leitrim 3 games left = @ Lgf @ Lao v Tipp
Win all 3 - need Carlow to drop 1 point

Wexford 3 games left = @ Car @ Tipp vs Lgf
Win all 3 - need Leitrim to drop 3 points, or Leitrim drop 2 and ahead of Car/Lei on points difference

Might be a situation where Tipp get through but looks unlikely ( didnt try to figure out if possible) but well able to beat any of the above - and will be playing quite freely."
Thanks for having already figured out something I was going to try figure out myself!

Long shot for our Wexford lads all right. And while we beat Waterford by 11 last night, we didn't do our points difference all the good we could have done. We could have had three or four goals in the second half, and the goal we gave them in injury time was from the goalkeeper giving the ball away about 60 yards out of his goal. So, instead of potentially winning by 20 points or more, we "only" won by 11.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2282 - 25/02/2024 21:13:51    2528127

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Replying To Solo_Run:  "Assume Laois top the group. Carlow and Longford have 100 % control for second place. Leitrim and Wexford both have 2 of last 3 away, and for Leitrim that includes Laois.


Carlow: 3 games left = v Wex, @ Lgf v Lon
Win all 3 guaranteed promotion

Longford: 3 games left = v Lei, v Car @ Wex
Win all 3 guaranteed promotion

Leitrim 3 games left = @ Lgf @ Lao v Tipp
Win all 3 - need Carlow to drop 1 point

Wexford 3 games left = @ Car @ Tipp vs Lgf
Win all 3 - need Leitrim to drop 3 points, or Leitrim drop 2 and ahead of Car/Lei on points difference

Might be a situation where Tipp get through but looks unlikely ( didnt try to figure out if possible) but well able to beat any of the above - and will be playing quite freely."
Carlow aren't guaranteed promotion if they win their 3 remaining games, and we don't necessarily need Carlow to drop at least one point. Would be nice if they did though.

As far as I make it out:

If Leitrim win their three remaining games then that includes beating Laois in the process, meaning that Laois will have lost one game. Leitrim will have lost one game. If Carlow win their three remaining games then they will also finish the campaign with one game lost.

In this scenario then Laois, Leitrim and Carlow all finish the league having lost one game and winning the rest. The three teams all finish on 12 points and scoring difference decides who goes up.

Just saying - a lot of football to be played yet.

Leitrim just have to win the next three games now for us … sounds easy doesn't it ….

leitrim4sam (Leitrim) - Posts: 645 - 25/02/2024 21:30:48    2528132

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Ya I think there could be a few twists and turns yet, Tipp nearly got a result against Laois except for a last minute free, so they mite cough up a few points yet. That will be the defining game for Leitrim, you would expect they have enough to see off Longford the next outing

Bainisteoir (National) - Posts: 541 - 25/02/2024 22:27:59    2528144

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Div 4 predictions - here's my tuppence worth :

Round 5
Wx bt Cw
LS bt Lon
T bt Wd
Ld bt Lm

Ls 10
Cw 6
Ld 6
Lm 6
Wx 6
T 5

Round 6
Lon bt Wd
Ls bt Lm
T bt Wx
Ld bt Cw

Ls 12
Ld 8
T 7
Lm 6
Wx 6
Cw 6

Round 7
Cw bt Lon
Ls bt Wd
Wx bt Ld
T bt Lm

Ls 14
T 9
Wx 8
Cw 8
Lm 6


Promoted : Laois & Tipperary

saorkick (Dublin) - Posts: 13 - 26/02/2024 00:02:02    2528159

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Replying To saorkick:  "Div 4 predictions - here's my tuppence worth :

Round 5
Wx bt Cw
LS bt Lon
T bt Wd
Ld bt Lm

Ls 10
Cw 6
Ld 6
Lm 6
Wx 6
T 5

Round 6
Lon bt Wd
Ls bt Lm
T bt Wx
Ld bt Cw

Ls 12
Ld 8
T 7
Lm 6
Wx 6
Cw 6

Round 7
Cw bt Lon
Ls bt Wd
Wx bt Ld
T bt Lm

Ls 14
T 9
Wx 8
Cw 8
Lm 6


Promoted : Laois & Tipperary"
.....forgot to include Longford in final table

Round 7
Cw bt Lon
Ls bt Wd
Wx bt Ld
T bt Lm

Ls 14
T 9
Ld 8
Wx 8
Cw 8
Lm 6

saorkick (Dublin) - Posts: 13 - 26/02/2024 00:14:34    2528162

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Replying To saorkick:  "
Replying To saorkick:  "Div 4 predictions - here's my tuppence worth :

Round 5
Wx bt Cw
LS bt Lon
T bt Wd
Ld bt Lm

Ls 10
Cw 6
Ld 6
Lm 6
Wx 6
T 5

Round 6
Lon bt Wd
Ls bt Lm
T bt Wx
Ld bt Cw

Ls 12
Ld 8
T 7
Lm 6
Wx 6
Cw 6

Round 7
Cw bt Lon
Ls bt Wd
Wx bt Ld
T bt Lm

Ls 14
T 9
Wx 8
Cw 8
Lm 6


Promoted : Laois & Tipperary"
.....forgot to include Longford in final table

Round 7
Cw bt Lon
Ls bt Wd
Wx bt Ld
T bt Lm

Ls 14
T 9
Ld 8
Wx 8
Cw 8
Lm 6"
That's a very positive projection for us. If theres one change to it and we win all 3 remaining games we will be promoted!

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12385 - 26/02/2024 06:48:24    2528174

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Laois start slowly again, and it almost cost us, fair play to the lads for digging out that final score.

Great to have Paul Kingston back and after playing injured most of last year, good to see Lillis getting some minutes in the legs and contributing, we'll need his experience.

That's surely promotion in the bag with London at home and Waterford to come, which should make the home game against Leitrim meaningless, other than owing them one from the thumping they gave us last year!

Laoisvillian (Laois) - Posts: 82 - 26/02/2024 07:45:11    2528181

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Replying To Laoisvillian:  "Laois start slowly again, and it almost cost us, fair play to the lads for digging out that final score.

Great to have Paul Kingston back and after playing injured most of last year, good to see Lillis getting some minutes in the legs and contributing, we'll need his experience.

That's surely promotion in the bag with London at home and Waterford to come, which should make the home game against Leitrim meaningless, other than owing them one from the thumping they gave us last year!"
Ye should really rest your first 15 against Leitrim to be ready for the league final.Wink wink.

masseyferguson (Leitrim) - Posts: 97 - 26/02/2024 10:46:45    2528250

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Replying To leitrim4sam:  "
Replying To Solo_Run:  "Assume Laois top the group. Carlow and Longford have 100 % control for second place. Leitrim and Wexford both have 2 of last 3 away, and for Leitrim that includes Laois.


Carlow: 3 games left = v Wex, @ Lgf v Lon
Win all 3 guaranteed promotion

Longford: 3 games left = v Lei, v Car @ Wex
Win all 3 guaranteed promotion

Leitrim 3 games left = @ Lgf @ Lao v Tipp
Win all 3 - need Carlow to drop 1 point

Wexford 3 games left = @ Car @ Tipp vs Lgf
Win all 3 - need Leitrim to drop 3 points, or Leitrim drop 2 and ahead of Car/Lei on points difference

Might be a situation where Tipp get through but looks unlikely ( didnt try to figure out if possible) but well able to beat any of the above - and will be playing quite freely."
Carlow aren't guaranteed promotion if they win their 3 remaining games, and we don't necessarily need Carlow to drop at least one point. Would be nice if they did though.

As far as I make it out:

If Leitrim win their three remaining games then that includes beating Laois in the process, meaning that Laois will have lost one game. Leitrim will have lost one game. If Carlow win their three remaining games then they will also finish the campaign with one game lost.

In this scenario then Laois, Leitrim and Carlow all finish the league having lost one game and winning the rest. The three teams all finish on 12 points and scoring difference decides who goes up.

Just saying - a lot of football to be played yet.

Leitrim just have to win the next three games now for us … sounds easy doesn't it …."
Yes - you're right. I left Laois out of the picture - made it a 4 team competition. Whereas Leitrim win all 3 would very very likely make it , Laois would be in a 3 way play-off with Leitrim and Carlow ( if carlow also won out). Plus Tipp are still in it - knew they were but didn't work it out.

Plus its hard to see anyone except Laois winning all three - seems to me all these teams can beat each other on the day - and at least half the teams in Division 3.

Next week you'd have to think Carlow v Wexford ; Longford v Leitrim 'are close to must win games. Tough division to get out of.

Solo_Run (Leitrim) - Posts: 211 - 26/02/2024 11:52:07    2528289

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Question on a three-way tie. Is still overall scoring difference, or did they change it a year ago to be the scoring difference between just the three teams?

Tacaí Liatroma (Leitrim) - Posts: 1064 - 26/02/2024 15:56:29    2528382

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Replying To Tacaí Liatroma:  "Question on a three-way tie. Is still overall scoring difference, or did they change it a year ago to be the scoring difference between just the three teams?"
It's a good question, and it's something I hadn't actually thought of. Have done a bit of digging in the Rule Book, and looks to me like it's still just overall score difference that counts in inter-county competitions.

There was a change last year all right, such that if three or more teams finish level on points, the first deciding factor is the number of points earned in just the matches between those teams (i.e. a sort of 'mini League'). If that doesn't separate them, the next deciding factor is the scoring difference in just those matches, and it's only if they're then still level that it goes to overall scoring difference.

But, here's the rub - those rules are set out only in Section 11 of the "Codes" section of the Rule Book, under the heading "Club Championships - County/Provincial/All-Ireland". There are no corresponding rules set out in the sections of other parts of the Rule Book that deal with the National Leagues, the group stages of the Sam Maguire & Tailteann Cup, or the group stages of the various tiers of the hurling championships.

So, looks to me that the "new" way of deciding three-way ties applies only to the group stages of club championships. It wouldn't even apply in a separate club league competition.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2282 - 26/02/2024 16:25:30    2528393

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "It's a good question, and it's something I hadn't actually thought of. Have done a bit of digging in the Rule Book, and looks to me like it's still just overall score difference that counts in inter-county competitions.

There was a change last year all right, such that if three or more teams finish level on points, the first deciding factor is the number of points earned in just the matches between those teams (i.e. a sort of 'mini League'). If that doesn't separate them, the next deciding factor is the scoring difference in just those matches, and it's only if they're then still level that it goes to overall scoring difference.

But, here's the rub - those rules are set out only in Section 11 of the "Codes" section of the Rule Book, under the heading "Club Championships - County/Provincial/All-Ireland". There are no corresponding rules set out in the sections of other parts of the Rule Book that deal with the National Leagues, the group stages of the Sam Maguire & Tailteann Cup, or the group stages of the various tiers of the hurling championships.

So, looks to me that the "new" way of deciding three-way ties applies only to the group stages of club championships. It wouldn't even apply in a separate club league competition."
That's exactly it; just Section 11 of the "Codes" section of the Rule Book, under the heading "Club Championships - County/Provincial/All-Ireland" is all where I could find it too. Have the GAA come out and clarified the tiebreakers? Or are we supposed to just know that the Section 11 tiebreakers do/don't apply to the League as well?

Tacaí Liatroma (Leitrim) - Posts: 1064 - 26/02/2024 18:34:29    2528446

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Not sure if I'm confusing or helping. From Wikipedia ( next question is why is it easier on Wiki than GAA website - though it does quote some "Official GAA Guide"!! ). I have it my head though, its 2 teams equal its head to head, if more than 2 its overall points difference ( not mini league of games or points). Not saying I'm right just throwing it there as I think wiki is easier to understand than any GAA website. ( this applies to all divisions I presume, some are equally as close as Div 4). Dont think after the underline below matters.

Going to the last day no matter what, promotion needs a bit of luck* too. Wearing a Leitrim hat (obviously) should have lost to Wexford and beaten Carlow - so we " are we where we should be". Understand Wexford frustration, as well as our own. Same will happen to others - as I said elsewhere, they can all beat each other on a given day.

* (Last year Sligo beat Leitrim by 1 point to get promoted and bring Wicklow with them, Leitrim win and Leitrim and Laois get promoted instead ( we gave Laois a good beating to get them back in the mix, down side is they probably haven't forgotten !!!! - say they are gunning for us)


Tiebreakers for league ranking
As per the Official GAA Guide - Part 1 - Section 6.21[4] -

If two teams in the same group are equal on points on completion of the league phase, the following tie-breaking criteria are applied:

Where two teams only are involved - the outcome of the meeting of the two teams in the previous game in the Competition;
If three or more teams in the same group are equal on points on completion of the league phase, the following tie-breaking criteria are applied:

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Scoring Difference (subtracting the total scores against from total scores for);
Highest Total Score For;
A Play-Off.
In the event that two teams or more finish with equal points, but have been affected by a disqualification, loss of game on a proven objection, retirement or walkover, the tie shall be decided by the following means:

Score Difference from the games in which only the teams involved, (teams tied on points), have played each other. (subtracting the total Scores Against from total Scores For)
Highest Total Score For, in which only the teams involved, have played each other, and have finished equal in (i)
A Play-Off

Solo_Run (Leitrim) - Posts: 211 - 26/02/2024 19:27:50    2528469

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Ti be clearer I think - didnt copy and paste as well, numbering is mine

Tiebreakers for league ranking
As per the Official GAA Guide - Part 1 - Section 6.21[4] -

If two teams in the same group are equal on points on completion of the league phase, the following tie-breaking criteria are applied:

Where two teams only are involved - the outcome of the meeting of the two teams in the previous game in the Competition;

If three or more teams in the same group are equal on points on completion of the league phase, the following tie-breaking criteria are applied:


(1) Scoring Difference (subtracting the total scores against from total scores for);
(2)Highest Total Score For;
(3 ) A Play-Off.

Solo_Run (Leitrim) - Posts: 211 - 26/02/2024 19:56:50    2528477

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Oh no! Where did you find that? The version I got on the GAA website is effective from March 18th, 2023 and Chapter 6 only goes as far as 6.17! I think they might have moved a heap of stuff out to this "Codes" document!

Tacaí Liatroma (Leitrim) - Posts: 1064 - 26/02/2024 21:08:40    2528494

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Replying To Tacaí Liatroma:  "Oh no! Where did you find that? The version I got on the GAA website is effective from March 18th, 2023 and Chapter 6 only goes as far as 6.17! I think they might have moved a heap of stuff out to this "Codes" document!"
Yes, that's exactly it.

@Solo_Run - don't shoot the messenger, but your research was in vain, as that Wikipedia article is quoting from an old version of the Rule Book.

It was restructured last year into a new Part 1, Part 2, and Codes, all of which are available here:
https://www.gaa.ie/the-gaa/rules-regulations
link

To be honest, I'm still trying to get my head around certain aspects of them, but here are a few points:
- The only bit that explicitly sets out how to separate three-way ties in the league section of a competition is Section 11.1.5 of "Codes", which - as previously stated - refers to the League stages of club championships only.

- The structure of inter-county championships (Sam Maguire, Tailteann Cup, all five hurling tiers, U20, and U17) is dealt with in Section 6.12 of Part 1 (starts on page 48). Strangely, makes no mention whatsoever of how to separate teams in the event of a three-way tie.

- And then you have to back to the "Codes" for the structure of the National Leagues - see Section 13.3 on page 24. It says all regulations pertaining to the Leagues (presumably including the question of three-way ties) shall be decided by Central Council, on the advice of the CCCC.

So, seems they've left it up to the CCCC to decide, rather than putting it in the Rule Book. Which basically means my research was in vain here too, since the Rule Book doesn't have the answer we're looking for!

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2282 - 26/02/2024 23:37:16    2528519

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "Yes, that's exactly it.

@Solo_Run - don't shoot the messenger, but your research was in vain, as that Wikipedia article is quoting from an old version of the Rule Book.

It was restructured last year into a new Part 1, Part 2, and Codes, all of which are available here:
https://www.gaa.ie/the-gaa/rules-regulations
link

To be honest, I'm still trying to get my head around certain aspects of them, but here are a few points:
- The only bit that explicitly sets out how to separate three-way ties in the league section of a competition is Section 11.1.5 of "Codes", which - as previously stated - refers to the League stages of club championships only.

- The structure of inter-county championships (Sam Maguire, Tailteann Cup, all five hurling tiers, U20, and U17) is dealt with in Section 6.12 of Part 1 (starts on page 48). Strangely, makes no mention whatsoever of how to separate teams in the event of a three-way tie.

- And then you have to back to the "Codes" for the structure of the National Leagues - see Section 13.3 on page 24. It says all regulations pertaining to the Leagues (presumably including the question of three-way ties) shall be decided by Central Council, on the advice of the CCCC.

So, seems they've left it up to the CCCC to decide, rather than putting it in the Rule Book. Which basically means my research was in vain here too, since the Rule Book doesn't have the answer we're looking for!"
So right now, with the League season halfway over, none of the participants actually know exactly what's needed for promotion? That's.....er....bizarre......putting it politely!

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12385 - 27/02/2024 07:07:07    2528530

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