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Replying To alwaysasub: "Anyone able to explain the Shels motion that was passed about being able to regrade players after two rounds of championship to a second team? Is it that if a player plays in the first team in one of there two games, he can be regraded to the second team?
Sounds a bit ridiculous if that was the case? It would be very hard if your first team, was lets say Junior and a senior team can regrade a couple of players to play junior even if they have played senior? Maybe i'm reading it wrong, just that it wasnt very clear last night on what it meant." Good motion. Means lads won't be stuck with no hurling or football when they can't make the first team. Every year there are lads who get stuck in limbo.
icehonesty (Wexford) - Posts: 2559 - 13/12/2023 13:12:51
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Replying To Paull: "18s motion defeated 2 to 1.
No minors playing adult for 2024 at least." Absolute madness, a terrible result. Some people really have no clue.
icehonesty (Wexford) - Posts: 2559 - 13/12/2023 13:13:29
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Replying To icehonesty: "Absolute madness, a terrible result. Some people really have no clue." Not madness at all. Great move
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3674 - 13/12/2023 13:33:07
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Replying To alwaysasub: "This is my point? Like how will this be policed, its too open to be abused. As stated above, a player could play two full matches for a senior club, win those two games, then lets say there third match is against a team at the bottom of the table who they should beat easily and there second team needs a win, so they will say lets regrade three players and give the second team a win they need that might get them through. I cant understand how anyone cant see anything wrong with the above. If your first team are at lower levels, it now makes it even harder to win. Of course Shels are going to be in favour of it, gives there second and third teams a great advantage." It means analysis of team sheets etc to see who started. Who came on in games etc
It's policed by refs and county/divisional boards. Nothing too complicated.
Been this system in use in rugby for years.
You can't simply regrade any players. If they've played too much for the more senior team in their club then they can't drop back to 2nd or 3rd team.
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3674 - 13/12/2023 13:47:14
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Replying To icehonesty: "Absolute madness, a terrible result. Some people really have no clue." I presume you mean it was madness and a terrible result that 56 people were still crazy enough to vote for the motion even in spite of being told of the problems it would bring and the massive impact it would have on probably 90% of minor players in the county.
You're right. They really don't have a clue.
I'm still glad that 115 people saw sense and voted against it.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2622 - 13/12/2023 13:57:03
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Just catching up I think shels motion is a great step forward. I ve seen on countless occasions where a player starts comes on to first team management realise that he's possibly not up to it or ready . And doesn't get another chance unless winning hand or being beaten well .
May have deserved his chance through effort or performance but as everyone knows championship is a different animal .
No 1st team manager is going to agree to let fella step down to 2nd team if he is part of his plans going forward either for momentum point of view or needing to win . After 2 rounds no one is sure or guaranteed a 1/4 final spot normally .
He ll need a panel of 20 most days to get through games . So maybe clubs won't actually use the regrading at all . As players may not be available for regrading .
It's only after first 2 rounds and before 3rd rond as far as I can tell (open to correction ). Then window closes.
Most 1st teams have one two at most that would be affected . No self respecting player would go to play with 2nd team if they were a regular with 1st team and had ambition its for lads on the borderline .
I think it's good step . Can't see it being abused widely by any team . Fir above reasons
Formertownie (Wexford) - Posts: 301 - 13/12/2023 14:25:17
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I also think a manager might just use a player that he may have not used as not convinced on him . But can now use him and see without destroying his hole year . Down to man management then if the difficult decision is made to regrade him after the 1st 2 rounds . No point winning games with 2nd team if its a false position of where they are at realistically . .
Formertownie (Wexford) - Posts: 301 - 13/12/2023 14:29:07
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Replying To alwaysasub: "This is my point? Like how will this be policed, its too open to be abused. As stated above, a player could play two full matches for a senior club, win those two games, then lets say there third match is against a team at the bottom of the table who they should beat easily and there second team needs a win, so they will say lets regrade three players and give the second team a win they need that might get them through. I cant understand how anyone cant see anything wrong with the above. If your first team are at lower levels, it now makes it even harder to win. Of course Shels are going to be in favour of it, gives there second and third teams a great advantage." Have actually been talking to somebody "in the know" over lunchtime, and he points out that some of the key words in the motion that it seems are being overlooked are that regradings can happen subject to approval of CCC.
It means you can't just nominate any three you want, and automatically have them eligible to play for your second team in Round 3. So Gorey (to use an example already given) couldn't regrade Conor Mac, Cathal Dunbar and Charlie McGuckin, to allow them play for their Juniors in Round 3.
CCC wouldn't approve those regradings as they'd be an obvious attempt to give the Juniors an unfair advantage.
CCC would have to be satisfied that the regrading applications are genuine ones - i.e. the sort of player who isn't guaranteed any further extended playing time with the first team, so that he can go back to playing with the second team, instead of having to sit everything out for the rest of the year.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2622 - 13/12/2023 14:50:58
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Replying To Formertownie: "I also think a manager might just use a player that he may have not used as not convinced on him . But can now use him and see without destroying his hole year . Down to man management then if the difficult decision is made to regrade him after the 1st 2 rounds . No point winning games with 2nd team if its a false position of where they are at realistically . ." Exactly. Gives the manager a chance to try somebody, without ruining his whole year if he ends up not needing or deciding not to use that player again for whatever reason.
If the same sort of thing applied between senior & U20 at inter-county, then an obvious beneficiary in 2022 would have been Oisín Pepper - got a run for a few minutes in first senior championship match v Galway due largely to an injury crisis, which meant he lost his U20 status, but then got little or no further game time with the seniors either.
In this sort of scenario, would have been possible to regrade him back to the U20s, so that he could play at his own level instead of having to sit everything out.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2622 - 13/12/2023 15:38:27
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Replying To Pikeman96: "Exactly. Gives the manager a chance to try somebody, without ruining his whole year if he ends up not needing or deciding not to use that player again for whatever reason.
If the same sort of thing applied between senior & U20 at inter-county, then an obvious beneficiary in 2022 would have been Oisín Pepper - got a run for a few minutes in first senior championship match v Galway due largely to an injury crisis, which meant he lost his U20 status, but then got little or no further game time with the seniors either.
In this sort of scenario, would have been possible to regrade him back to the U20s, so that he could play at his own level instead of having to sit everything out." Would make sense for intercounty u20s for sure. I suppose we will know how it works in practice in less than a year. Not too long to wait.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13884 - 13/12/2023 15:55:37
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Replying To Pikeman96: "Have actually been talking to somebody "in the know" over lunchtime, and he points out that some of the key words in the motion that it seems are being overlooked are that regradings can happen subject to approval of CCC.
It means you can't just nominate any three you want, and automatically have them eligible to play for your second team in Round 3. So Gorey (to use an example already given) couldn't regrade Conor Mac, Cathal Dunbar and Charlie McGuckin, to allow them play for their Juniors in Round 3.
CCC wouldn't approve those regradings as they'd be an obvious attempt to give the Juniors an unfair advantage.
CCC would have to be satisfied that the regrading applications are genuine ones - i.e. the sort of player who isn't guaranteed any further extended playing time with the first team, so that he can go back to playing with the second team, instead of having to sit everything out for the rest of the year." This was the point I made yesterday. Just say a club did do this, regrade a player (or three) after round 2 but those players came back and played round 3 of senior and subsequent games, then you will see that club in the following year under greater scrutiny and more likely to not be approved this mid season regrading. I dont see why clubs would bother putting themselves in bother for the sake of one round of a lower grade league phase.
james2011 (Wexford) - Posts: 615 - 13/12/2023 16:08:42
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Replying To Pikeman96: "I presume you mean it was madness and a terrible result that 56 people were still crazy enough to vote for the motion even in spite of being told of the problems it would bring and the massive impact it would have on probably 90% of minor players in the county.
You're right. They really don't have a clue.
I'm still glad that 115 people saw sense and voted against it." Not allowing lads 17 or who've even turned 18 to play adult hurling and football is idiotic, sorry.
icehonesty (Wexford) - Posts: 2559 - 22/12/2023 09:50:41
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Replying To icehonesty: "Not allowing lads 17 or who've even turned 18 to play adult hurling and football is idiotic, sorry." (Rolls eyes and takes a deep breath......)
Ah, this old argument again, just in time for Christmas.
Nobody doubts that some 17- or 18-year-olds would be well able to play in the adult grades. The problem remains how and when you'd then be able to run the minor championships themselves, for the benefit of not only these lads who'd also be playing adult, but also (and more importantly) for the probably 90% of minors who wouldn't be playing adult.
All the complications and considerations have been outlined here already by myself and others. If you can have a think about it all and come up with an acceptable solution, then I'm genuinely all ears and eager to learn, because nobody else has managed that yet.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2622 - 22/12/2023 14:49:14
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See latest post by Wexford GAA regarding structures for the year. Interesting one for football in 2025. Not sure how much support this would get along with 1 point extra for winning the league. I also definately agree with the leagues back to playing other teams not in your championship group.
League & Championship Proposals 2024
Coiste Bainistí reviewed the submissions from clubs regarding league and championship proposals for 2024 that are to be voted upon at the County Committee meeting on 18 January. In respect of the championship calendar, there was no proposal received to continue the split season approach that has been used in the past few years. Various proposals in respect of the championship structure were received, including expanded league/championship structures, four groups of 3, three groups of 4 and two groups of 6.
Coiste Bainistí will propose and support that the championship be played on the basis of:
Alternative blocks of two or three weeks for each code as set out by CCC to best suit our calendar
Two groups of six
Semi-finals and finals in both codes to be played on alternative weeks to allow time between quarter-finals, semi-finals and finals (if a team is not involved in the final stages of both codes)
That the CCC has the flexibility to use any spare weekends available to facilitate a rest weekend for players and to allow for the impact of Fleadh on the County if the calendar allows (it is likely that mid-week games will be played during the period of Fleadh Ceoil na hÉireann)
Following an analysis of results and competitiveness in championships from 2019 to 2023, it is clear that a significant gap has emerged between the top teams in Gaelic football at each grade. In order to increase competitiveness and improve standards, Coiste Bainistí will also bring a proposal to County Committee to reduce the number of teams in each grade of football championship from the existing twelve teams to eight teams for the 2025 championship season, with the championship gradings for 2025 to be based upon results from the 2024 football championship.
From an All-County League perspective, Coiste Bainistí will propose to return to the league structure of 2022, whereby each team played in the league against the teams in the other group in their championship grade. In addition, the winners of the league would each receive one additional point in their respective Championship group.
alwaysasub (Wexford) - Posts: 444 - 05/01/2024 16:52:22
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Replying To alwaysasub: "See latest post by Wexford GAA regarding structures for the year. Interesting one for football in 2025. Not sure how much support this would get along with 1 point extra for winning the league. I also definately agree with the leagues back to playing other teams not in your championship group.
League & Championship Proposals 2024
Coiste Bainistí reviewed the submissions from clubs regarding league and championship proposals for 2024 that are to be voted upon at the County Committee meeting on 18 January. In respect of the championship calendar, there was no proposal received to continue the split season approach that has been used in the past few years. Various proposals in respect of the championship structure were received, including expanded league/championship structures, four groups of 3, three groups of 4 and two groups of 6.
Coiste Bainistí will propose and support that the championship be played on the basis of:
Alternative blocks of two or three weeks for each code as set out by CCC to best suit our calendar
Two groups of six
Semi-finals and finals in both codes to be played on alternative weeks to allow time between quarter-finals, semi-finals and finals (if a team is not involved in the final stages of both codes)
That the CCC has the flexibility to use any spare weekends available to facilitate a rest weekend for players and to allow for the impact of Fleadh on the County if the calendar allows (it is likely that mid-week games will be played during the period of Fleadh Ceoil na hÉireann)
Following an analysis of results and competitiveness in championships from 2019 to 2023, it is clear that a significant gap has emerged between the top teams in Gaelic football at each grade. In order to increase competitiveness and improve standards, Coiste Bainistí will also bring a proposal to County Committee to reduce the number of teams in each grade of football championship from the existing twelve teams to eight teams for the 2025 championship season, with the championship gradings for 2025 to be based upon results from the 2024 football championship.
From an All-County League perspective, Coiste Bainistí will propose to return to the league structure of 2022, whereby each team played in the league against the teams in the other group in their championship grade. In addition, the winners of the league would each receive one additional point in their respective Championship group." Be interesting to see if the gap between teams is as big if it goes back to alternative weeks, my guess it wouldn't be as Shels etc have to concentrate on hurling for two weeks.Also there was a bit of a gap between Shels ,Castletown and Kilanerin in senior, not sure there was big gaps in the other grades, intermediate was wide open anyway.Not sure this will get the backing of clubs.
WexMurph (Wexford) - Posts: 239 - 05/01/2024 17:56:37
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I think getting away from a full block of each code is a good thing, it had positives but the negatives outweighed it. Hard to see the merit in moving to 8 team grades in football, grades are generally competitive, I know a gap devloped between the top 3 and the rest in Senior but think that's a cyclical thing more than anything.
TerribleFootwork (Wexford) - Posts: 1760 - 05/01/2024 22:57:10
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Replying To alwaysasub: "See latest post by Wexford GAA regarding structures for the year. Interesting one for football in 2025. Not sure how much support this would get along with 1 point extra for winning the league. I also definately agree with the leagues back to playing other teams not in your championship group.
League & Championship Proposals 2024
Coiste Bainistí reviewed the submissions from clubs regarding league and championship proposals for 2024 that are to be voted upon at the County Committee meeting on 18 January. In respect of the championship calendar, there was no proposal received to continue the split season approach that has been used in the past few years. Various proposals in respect of the championship structure were received, including expanded league/championship structures, four groups of 3, three groups of 4 and two groups of 6.
Coiste Bainistí will propose and support that the championship be played on the basis of:
Alternative blocks of two or three weeks for each code as set out by CCC to best suit our calendar
Two groups of six
Semi-finals and finals in both codes to be played on alternative weeks to allow time between quarter-finals, semi-finals and finals (if a team is not involved in the final stages of both codes)
That the CCC has the flexibility to use any spare weekends available to facilitate a rest weekend for players and to allow for the impact of Fleadh on the County if the calendar allows (it is likely that mid-week games will be played during the period of Fleadh Ceoil na hÉireann)
Following an analysis of results and competitiveness in championships from 2019 to 2023, it is clear that a significant gap has emerged between the top teams in Gaelic football at each grade. In order to increase competitiveness and improve standards, Coiste Bainistí will also bring a proposal to County Committee to reduce the number of teams in each grade of football championship from the existing twelve teams to eight teams for the 2025 championship season, with the championship gradings for 2025 to be based upon results from the 2024 football championship.
From an All-County League perspective, Coiste Bainistí will propose to return to the league structure of 2022, whereby each team played in the league against the teams in the other group in their championship grade. In addition, the winners of the league would each receive one additional point in their respective Championship group." As usual the proposals however merited on the Football side are bound to fail due to no foresight in how they would be implemented. What they should do is create a Senior B Championship which is made up of the top 4 from Inter and bottom 4 from Senior. There is a massive difference in telling a club that they are being demoted to Intermediate and Senior B. If they are not doing it that way then doing everything in one year is bound to not get passed. If they have their way the bottom two in each group would drop down but in drawing the groups are they graded based on the prior years results - I didn't think they were which means the balance of the groups is a big issue.
I cannot see this getting any support. To me this seems like an attempt to say that we tried to do something about raising the standard of football but the clubs rejected it.
Also in the above if teams are involved in the semi finals in both codes what they are saying is that one code finishes and then the other? If after the QFs there is one team involved in both I assume that the code that played the QF last would have their semi and final first. When they talk about the teams involved is it across all grades? so if a club is in the semi in Senior Football and Semi in Inter Hurling everything is impact - how far down the grades to they go for the first team cross over? Why not just decide now on the format for the semis and finals. So which every code has their QF last finishes to the final - are they hoping that by chance they may save a weekend?
zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 1900 - 06/01/2024 02:08:13
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Replying To zinny: "As usual the proposals however merited on the Football side are bound to fail due to no foresight in how they would be implemented. What they should do is create a Senior B Championship which is made up of the top 4 from Inter and bottom 4 from Senior. There is a massive difference in telling a club that they are being demoted to Intermediate and Senior B. If they are not doing it that way then doing everything in one year is bound to not get passed. If they have their way the bottom two in each group would drop down but in drawing the groups are they graded based on the prior years results - I didn't think they were which means the balance of the groups is a big issue.
I cannot see this getting any support. To me this seems like an attempt to say that we tried to do something about raising the standard of football but the clubs rejected it.
Also in the above if teams are involved in the semi finals in both codes what they are saying is that one code finishes and then the other? If after the QFs there is one team involved in both I assume that the code that played the QF last would have their semi and final first. When they talk about the teams involved is it across all grades? so if a club is in the semi in Senior Football and Semi in Inter Hurling everything is impact - how far down the grades to they go for the first team cross over? Why not just decide now on the format for the semis and finals. So which every code has their QF last finishes to the final - are they hoping that by chance they may save a weekend?" Zinny, the proposal is to create Senior B no?
That's what I took from reading the document sent out before Xmas anyway
wexfordwin (Wexford) - Posts: 186 - 06/01/2024 09:06:31
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Replying To wexfordwin: "Zinny, the proposal is to create Senior B no?
That's what I took from reading the document sent out before Xmas anyway" That's my take on it too - i.e. the top grade of eight teams would be called Senior A, and the new grade of what would be the bottom four senior teams and the top four intermediate teams this year would be called Senior B.
That's really just semantics, though. The four clubs dropping to the second grade might still be in a grade called senior, but they'd know themselves that it's not "real" senior.
Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2622 - 06/01/2024 10:45:10
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Replying To Pikeman96: "That's my take on it too - i.e. the top grade of eight teams would be called Senior A, and the new grade of what would be the bottom four senior teams and the top four intermediate teams this year would be called Senior B.
That's really just semantics, though. The four clubs dropping to the second grade might still be in a grade called senior, but they'd know themselves that it's not "real" senior." Pikeman I take it if none of the proposed championship structure changes win enough votes we will keep the status quo?
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13884 - 06/01/2024 11:36:01
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