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Replying To bdbuddah: "Saying scorlines being higher is meaningless when in the same games with high scores have no bite to them and involve huge amounts of uncontested handpassing (as the original poster said the stats now for games show it is more like a handpass around rather than a proper match with the amount of uncontested hansldpassing)
To me you've delusional. You said the game is in a good state but also said the team you managed to county title had 2 decent games and the rest were blanket/ keep ball type games. This championship should involve teams of similar standard (all intermediate teams) so this shows the games has huge issues even when similar standard teams meet." Great highlight my one example where in my instance the team i coached just happened to be a higher standard then the others and the draw was lopsided as the strongest teams were all on one side. Amazing how you ignored all that despite me posting it.
I am not here claiming our game is class all the time. Some matches are poor but not as many as people are claiming. Sort out the structures and i have already posted on that many, many times and there will be less mismatches and games that don't matter.
TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 8155 - 10/04/2024 22:28:05
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Replying To TheFlaker: "Great highlight my one example where in my instance the team i coached just happened to be a higher standard then the others and the draw was lopsided as the strongest teams were all on one side. Amazing how you ignored all that despite me posting it.
I am not here claiming our game is class all the time. Some matches are poor but not as many as people are claiming. Sort out the structures and i have already posted on that many, many times and there will be less mismatches and games that don't matter." The problem is as you imply that the negativity is not in the rules but in the attitude of teams who go out to frustrate more positive opponents.
Nearly all of the proposed rule changes here and elsewhere seem to me to encourage that by penalising the attacking team. Default of proposals on hand passes etc is that at some stage the attacking team ought to be obliged to kick Hail Marys and effectively surrender possession to lads content to camp inside their own 45 or even 21.
When positive teams meet - any of those who have made up the contenders in inter county or club over past ten years or more often provide excellent displays when they meet. As evidenced this year by club finals and semi finals and by recent league finals.
BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 3120 - 11/04/2024 12:27:17
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Replying To BarneyGrant: "The problem is as you imply that the negativity is not in the rules but in the attitude of teams who go out to frustrate more positive opponents.
Nearly all of the proposed rule changes here and elsewhere seem to me to encourage that by penalising the attacking team. Default of proposals on hand passes etc is that at some stage the attacking team ought to be obliged to kick Hail Marys and effectively surrender possession to lads content to camp inside their own 45 or even 21.
When positive teams meet - any of those who have made up the contenders in inter county or club over past ten years or more often provide excellent displays when they meet. As evidenced this year by club finals and semi finals and by recent league finals." With the fitness of modern teams THERE IS a problem with the rules in that playing keepball/ blanket is an effective way of playing.
Keeping possession using uncontested handpassing is easy and blocking off space is a more effective way of stopping attacks rather than letting a defender put in a tackle one on one.
For me something has to be done about this regarding the rule book.
For me limiting handpassing wouldn't be my first option for a rule change trial to combat keep ball/ blanket tactics but it is far preferable than leaving the game as is.
People who have put forward ideas of restricting handpassing, there is a logic behind it.
Restricting handpassing would make current keep ball tactics less effective as it would be impossible just keep handpassing and wait for a gap to eventually appear.
Teams would inevitably end up having to kick the ball in and you would logically have to leave players up there to kick the ball in to and also then would mean less players available to the blanket.
bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1400 - 11/04/2024 14:21:35
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Replying To bdbuddah: "With the fitness of modern teams THERE IS a problem with the rules in that playing keepball/ blanket is an effective way of playing.
Keeping possession using uncontested handpassing is easy and blocking off space is a more effective way of stopping attacks rather than letting a defender put in a tackle one on one.
For me something has to be done about this regarding the rule book.
For me limiting handpassing wouldn't be my first option for a rule change trial to combat keep ball/ blanket tactics but it is far preferable than leaving the game as is.
People who have put forward ideas of restricting handpassing, there is a logic behind it.
Restricting handpassing would make current keep ball tactics less effective as it would be impossible just keep handpassing and wait for a gap to eventually appear.
Teams would inevitably end up having to kick the ball in and you would logically have to leave players up there to kick the ball in to and also then would mean less players available to the blanket." Good teams do not play that way, and there is increasing effective use of long ball.
Waiting for a gap is necessary unfortunately when the opposition just packs back. All teams do of course but some are barely even interested in making a quick break. When two of them meet then its wallpaper drying time, but they can also drag the good teams down.
BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 3120 - 11/04/2024 14:39:58
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Replying To bdbuddah: "With the fitness of modern teams THERE IS a problem with the rules in that playing keepball/ blanket is an effective way of playing.
Keeping possession using uncontested handpassing is easy and blocking off space is a more effective way of stopping attacks rather than letting a defender put in a tackle one on one.
For me something has to be done about this regarding the rule book.
For me limiting handpassing wouldn't be my first option for a rule change trial to combat keep ball/ blanket tactics but it is far preferable than leaving the game as is.
People who have put forward ideas of restricting handpassing, there is a logic behind it.
Restricting handpassing would make current keep ball tactics less effective as it would be impossible just keep handpassing and wait for a gap to eventually appear.
Teams would inevitably end up having to kick the ball in and you would logically have to leave players up there to kick the ball in to and also then would mean less players available to the blanket." In lieu of a hand pass restriction, why not have a "kick ball at distance" requirement, something like this:
"TWO-ZONE FORWARD KICK PASS RULE"
Use the 'two 45s and two 65s' line markings to divide the middle 'third' of the field (approx. 55 of 145 metres, between the 45s) into "THREE distinct ZONES" (2, 3 & 4).
In lieu of a hand pass limitation, teams in possession in their defensive portion of the pitch, are required to execute a "two-zone forward kick pass" across their 'defensive 65'. To do so, the team can optionally kick FROM Zone 1 (behind their defensive 45) OR Zone 2 (behind their defensive 65) TO Zone 3 (between the 65s) OR Zone 4 (beyond the attacking 65), respectively (i.e. Z1 to Z3, or Z2 to Z4). A violation results in a free kick to the opposing team at midfield.
This required kick could be dubbed the "45/65 rule", as it was inspired by the relatively new and effective "50/22 rule" in rugby union.
Would it be worth a trial?
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2891 - 11/04/2024 14:50:53
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Replying To bdbuddah: "With the fitness of modern teams THERE IS a problem with the rules in that playing keepball/ blanket is an effective way of playing.
Keeping possession using uncontested handpassing is easy and blocking off space is a more effective way of stopping attacks rather than letting a defender put in a tackle one on one.
For me something has to be done about this regarding the rule book.
For me limiting handpassing wouldn't be my first option for a rule change trial to combat keep ball/ blanket tactics but it is far preferable than leaving the game as is.
People who have put forward ideas of restricting handpassing, there is a logic behind it.
Restricting handpassing would make current keep ball tactics less effective as it would be impossible just keep handpassing and wait for a gap to eventually appear.
Teams would inevitably end up having to kick the ball in and you would logically have to leave players up there to kick the ball in to and also then would mean less players available to the blanket." Your logic is assuming that teams will leave players upfront to kick the ball into, well to put it crudely is b****x.
Limited handpass rule will encourage the defensive minded teams to remain so as it will make it more difficult for their opponents to create an opening to score.
They will sit back with even more confidence that the game will remain tight and that they will get more turnovers and break into space.
sligo joe (Dublin) - Posts: 795 - 11/04/2024 14:58:04
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Replying To sligo joe: "Your logic is assuming that teams will leave players upfront to kick the ball into, well to put it crudely is b****x.
Limited handpass rule will encourage the defensive minded teams to remain so as it will make it more difficult for their opponents to create an opening to score.
They will sit back with even more confidence that the game will remain tight and that they will get more turnovers and break into space." In this scenario teams would nearly have to leave players up for a lot of the game as a game plan without any realistic chance of scoring would not be effective.
Anyway as per my previous posts I'd prefer a rule trial where teams would be forced to leave a certain number of players forward for kickouts to a rule trial involving limiting handpassing.
The main thing for me is that this committee suggest meaningful rule trials rather than minor changes that will have little impact.
If they go for minor changes the committee will be little more than a talking shop.
bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1400 - 11/04/2024 17:29:56
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The problem with Gaelic football is that there is too many calls for changing the rules… I would drop some of the silly rules they brought in especially the forward mark and the black card… they serve no purpose and only add to confusion and frustration… I would also get rid of players taking free kicks out of their hands when going for a score… but leave it in place for all other frees to speed up the game… the art of free taking of the ground for scores is a bad miss from our game in my view.. I would ban goalkeepers from passing their own 45 in all circumstances thus doing away with this nonsense of them taking 45's and other such distance frees and joining up with attacks… The law around the advantage rule needs looking at as referees are constantly running around with their arm up in the air for the slightest of infringements which more times than not leads to penalising the attacker rather than the offender… they can't seem to wait long enough for play to develop which might benefit the attacker… blowing too quickly leading to frustration amongst players and supporters …. Let's get back to basics… The game isn't the problem it's the way it's coached is the issue…
ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 3029 - 11/04/2024 19:39:32
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Replying To bdbuddah: "In this scenario teams would nearly have to leave players up for a lot of the game as a game plan without any realistic chance of scoring would not be effective.
Anyway as per my previous posts I'd prefer a rule trial where teams would be forced to leave a certain number of players forward for kickouts to a rule trial involving limiting handpassing.
The main thing for me is that this committee suggest meaningful rule trials rather than minor changes that will have little impact.
If they go for minor changes the committee will be little more than a talking shop." Respectfully bdbuddah I disagree. I do not want radical rule changes. For me, all I would do is get rid of the fwd mark and possibly restrict the goalie, not allowed outside 20m line.
Also we must accept there is no "rule changes" that will improve games between weak and strong teams, mismatches.
Most games between equally talented teams are not as bad as portrayed and some are great games.
There will always be some negative managers and they will find a negative way to play whatever the rules.
sligo joe (Dublin) - Posts: 795 - 11/04/2024 19:47:33
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Replying To ForeverBlue2: "The problem with Gaelic football is that there is too many calls for changing the rules… I would drop some of the silly rules they brought in especially the forward mark and the black card… they serve no purpose and only add to confusion and frustration… I would also get rid of players taking free kicks out of their hands when going for a score… but leave it in place for all other frees to speed up the game… the art of free taking of the ground for scores is a bad miss from our game in my view.. I would ban goalkeepers from passing their own 45 in all circumstances thus doing away with this nonsense of them taking 45's and other such distance frees and joining up with attacks… The law around the advantage rule needs looking at as referees are constantly running around with their arm up in the air for the slightest of infringements which more times than not leads to penalising the attacker rather than the offender… they can't seem to wait long enough for play to develop which might benefit the attacker… blowing too quickly leading to frustration amongst players and supporters …. Let's get back to basics… The game isn't the problem it's the way it's coached is the issue…" No scores from frees from the hands? You are some craic. Let's get back to basics you say. You sound like some aul lad longing for the good old days.
TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 8155 - 11/04/2024 19:51:57
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Replying To omahant: "In lieu of a hand pass restriction, why not have a "kick ball at distance" requirement, something like this:
"TWO-ZONE FORWARD KICK PASS RULE"
Use the 'two 45s and two 65s' line markings to divide the middle 'third' of the field (approx. 55 of 145 metres, between the 45s) into "THREE distinct ZONES" (2, 3 & 4).
In lieu of a hand pass limitation, teams in possession in their defensive portion of the pitch, are required to execute a "two-zone forward kick pass" across their 'defensive 65'. To do so, the team can optionally kick FROM Zone 1 (behind their defensive 45) OR Zone 2 (behind their defensive 65) TO Zone 3 (between the 65s) OR Zone 4 (beyond the attacking 65), respectively (i.e. Z1 to Z3, or Z2 to Z4). A violation results in a free kick to the opposing team at midfield.
This required kick could be dubbed the "45/65 rule", as it was inspired by the relatively new and effective "50/22 rule" in rugby union.
Would it be worth a trial?" There's no kick pass in rugby. It's illegal.
GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7651 - 11/04/2024 20:38:11
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Whatever about rule changes, (I'd get rid of the forward mark anyway) the GAA have the intercounty season destroyed the way they are rushing through it, up against other sports also as their seasons finish too.
The way it was the GAA had the Summer to themselves to promote the intercounty Championship, now it's all too rushed, no build up to games, no wonder people are losing interest. I suppose it frees up Croker for late Summer concerts, maybe that's the plan?
No reason club and county couldn't be played at the same time, just space it out, bring back the All Ireland final on the 3rd Sunday in September I say.
Tirchonaill1 (Donegal) - Posts: 3030 - 11/04/2024 20:49:00
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Replying To Tirchonaill1: "Whatever about rule changes, (I'd get rid of the forward mark anyway) the GAA have the intercounty season destroyed the way they are rushing through it, up against other sports also as their seasons finish too.
The way it was the GAA had the Summer to themselves to promote the intercounty Championship, now it's all too rushed, no build up to games, no wonder people are losing interest. I suppose it frees up Croker for late Summer concerts, maybe that's the plan?
No reason club and county couldn't be played at the same time, just space it out, bring back the All Ireland final on the 3rd Sunday in September I say." Go díreach.
BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 3120 - 11/04/2024 22:15:51
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Replying To Tirchonaill1: "Whatever about rule changes, (I'd get rid of the forward mark anyway) the GAA have the intercounty season destroyed the way they are rushing through it, up against other sports also as their seasons finish too.
The way it was the GAA had the Summer to themselves to promote the intercounty Championship, now it's all too rushed, no build up to games, no wonder people are losing interest. I suppose it frees up Croker for late Summer concerts, maybe that's the plan?
No reason club and county couldn't be played at the same time, just space it out, bring back the All Ireland final on the 3rd Sunday in September I say." What promotion of the intercounty hurling and football season did the GAA do before on August and September?
GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7651 - 11/04/2024 22:23:12
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Replying To Tirchonaill1: "Whatever about rule changes, (I'd get rid of the forward mark anyway) the GAA have the intercounty season destroyed the way they are rushing through it, up against other sports also as their seasons finish too.
The way it was the GAA had the Summer to themselves to promote the intercounty Championship, now it's all too rushed, no build up to games, no wonder people are losing interest. I suppose it frees up Croker for late Summer concerts, maybe that's the plan?
No reason club and county couldn't be played at the same time, just space it out, bring back the All Ireland final on the 3rd Sunday in September I say." Two reasons Club and County aren't being played at the same time
1 Players and membership dontvwantbit
2 County managers would still be controlling the lads on the County panel
Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1955 - 11/04/2024 22:26:16
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Replying To TheFlaker: "No scores from frees from the hands? You are some craic. Let's get back to basics you say. You sound like some aul lad longing for the good old days." It's not anything about craic or longing for the good old days…. it's about a bit of sense… What's wrong with taking frees from the ground for scores… you can't take a 45 out of your hands can you…? The GAA keep changing the rules around the game in the hope of improving it as a spectacle… all they have achieved in the last 10 years is making the game worse and have drove thousands and thousands away from attending games… They have done a great job…and to put it like you say.., I'd say they are " longing for the good old days "
ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 3029 - 12/04/2024 07:38:54
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Replying To ForeverBlue2: "It's not anything about craic or longing for the good old days…. it's about a bit of sense… What's wrong with taking frees from the ground for scores… you can't take a 45 out of your hands can you…? The GAA keep changing the rules around the game in the hope of improving it as a spectacle… all they have achieved in the last 10 years is making the game worse and have drove thousands and thousands away from attending games… They have done a great job…and to put it like you say.., I'd say they are " longing for the good old days "" If you honeslty think forcing frees from the ground is a good idea there isn't much point debating anything with you. Absolute nonsense for so many reasons.
TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 8155 - 12/04/2024 09:14:29
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Replying To TheFlaker: "If you honeslty think forcing frees from the ground is a good idea there isn't much point debating anything with you. Absolute nonsense for so many reasons." Give me one….
ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 3029 - 12/04/2024 10:07:37
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Replying To ForeverBlue2: "Give me one…." You can't think of multiple issues yourself? Genuinely?
TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 8155 - 12/04/2024 10:36:22
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Replying To ForeverBlue2: "The problem with Gaelic football is that there is too many calls for changing the rules… I would drop some of the silly rules they brought in especially the forward mark and the black card… they serve no purpose and only add to confusion and frustration… I would also get rid of players taking free kicks out of their hands when going for a score… but leave it in place for all other frees to speed up the game… the art of free taking of the ground for scores is a bad miss from our game in my view.. I would ban goalkeepers from passing their own 45 in all circumstances thus doing away with this nonsense of them taking 45's and other such distance frees and joining up with attacks… The law around the advantage rule needs looking at as referees are constantly running around with their arm up in the air for the slightest of infringements which more times than not leads to penalising the attacker rather than the offender… they can't seem to wait long enough for play to develop which might benefit the attacker… blowing too quickly leading to frustration amongst players and supporters …. Let's get back to basics… The game isn't the problem it's the way it's coached is the issue…" The problem is the rule changes brought in/ changes in referring style in have mostly helped keep ball/ blanket tactics.
The change in the way the game is refereed over the years means it is harder for the tackler to dispossess/ stop the ball carrier.
Black cards again peanilises the tackler.
The kicking tee for goal keepers have made it easier to keep possession from kickouts (H&S was used to say we needed to stop goalies kicking off the turf but freetakers could kick off the turf if they wanted).
Additional subs meant you could replace more tiring players which allowed you have a gameplan involving players covering more ground.
From this committee we at last might get rule changes to specifically target keep ball/ blanket tactics.
bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1400 - 12/04/2024 11:58:58
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