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Can Gaelic Football (Handball?) Be Saved?

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Replying To GreenandRed:  "Westmeath won Division 3. They're a football team not a song and dance act. Big difference, for me, between watching a game on television and being at the game. Being on the sidelines, even if not high scoring, the hitting, the $hI+hou$ing, buying frees, good defending is good entertainment. There are more and more live games available to view live and on playback and most media will highlight the negatives.

It doesn't mean we shouldn't try to improve the attacking aspect of our games but also improve the defending, not the blanket defending. If Gaelic Football coaches are learning from other sports would it do any harm for a few neutral set of eyes from other sports to give a few thoughts on how to improve our great sport? Like the basketball three pointer, draw lines 3 metres in from the sideline, parallel between the 45s and a score from play inside the parallel lines is worth 2 points. Or after 6 frees conceded in a half it's a 14 yard free to the opposition in front of the posts. Might loosen up the defending a bit knowing a 7th or more free will cost you. But there will still be what people consider to be unentertaining games, the minority, where coaches will be risk averse. Unfortunately a television viewing social media will continue to highlight negativity and advertisers and sponsors pay too much heed to them. It's a sport, it's great to have entertaining games, but get a Disney+ account if you want entertainment."
Instead of lines 3m in from the side line, replace the D with 35m to 40m radius half circle from the middle of the goals end line, which would be 5m in from both corners in a 90m wide pitch. Any point scored from Points outide the new enlarged D would count as 2 points.
Points Inside the enlarged D count as 1.
Points from Sidelines count as 2.
Goals count as 4 points or maybe 5 points?

I think asking refs to keep count of how many frees conceded is adding too much to their workload and Likely to be prone to miscounts and refd errors due to the enormous Pressure they are already under.

The easiest change to implement is to change to 13 aside to account for the higher fitness levels of modern players. This along with points scored outside the enlarged D would go along way to making blanket defences tactically redundent.

I would add taking inspiration from the bonus try in rugby,
3 points awarded to winning team
1 point each for a draw
1 bonus point awarded to any team that scores 2 or more goals and 10 or more points, win, lose or draw, so even if a team loses, they are awarded a point for scoring minimum of 2 goals and 10 points. This would used in the league and the round robin all Ireland, not in quarters, semi's or finals.
The bonus point is to incentivise teams to score more goals and points and reward them for doing so.

Tirchonailabu56 (Donegal) - Posts: 23 - 01/04/2024 22:22:17    2535083

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Replying To GreenandRed:  "Westmeath won Division 3. They're a football team not a song and dance act. Big difference, for me, between watching a game on television and being at the game. Being on the sidelines, even if not high scoring, the hitting, the $hI+hou$ing, buying frees, good defending is good entertainment. There are more and more live games available to view live and on playback and most media will highlight the negatives.

It doesn't mean we shouldn't try to improve the attacking aspect of our games but also improve the defending, not the blanket defending. If Gaelic Football coaches are learning from other sports would it do any harm for a few neutral set of eyes from other sports to give a few thoughts on how to improve our great sport? Like the basketball three pointer, draw lines 3 metres in from the sideline, parallel between the 45s and a score from play inside the parallel lines is worth 2 points. Or after 6 frees conceded in a half it's a 14 yard free to the opposition in front of the posts. Might loosen up the defending a bit knowing a 7th or more free will cost you. But there will still be what people consider to be unentertaining games, the minority, where coaches will be risk averse. Unfortunately a television viewing social media will continue to highlight negativity and advertisers and sponsors pay too much heed to them. It's a sport, it's great to have entertaining games, but get a Disney+ account if you want entertainment."
Instead of bringing in different basketball (or rugby) rules/ styles why not bring in a meaningful rule change that would result in Gaelic football going back to something like how Gaelic football was played (and became popular) for the first about 125 years?.

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1382 - 01/04/2024 22:24:24    2535084

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Replying To bdbuddah:  "Instead of bringing in different basketball (or rugby) rules/ styles why not bring in a meaningful rule change that would result in Gaelic football going back to something like how Gaelic football was played (and became popular) for the first about 125 years?."
Such as........

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1812 - 01/04/2024 23:46:55    2535090

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Replying To bdbuddah:  "Instead of bringing in different basketball (or rugby) rules/ styles why not bring in a meaningful rule change that would result in Gaelic football going back to something like how Gaelic football was played (and became popular) for the first about 125 years?."
What difference if good ideas to improve Gaeic gootball come from other sports, Gaelic football of some improvement that's not been in any sport yet?

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7571 - 01/04/2024 23:56:51    2535091

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Replying To ForeverBlue2:  "Good sensible post and the reason attendance figures are dwindling"
Can you provide stats for attendances dwindling? Thanks.

TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 8059 - 02/04/2024 00:41:01    2535097

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "Such as........"
These ideas have been discussed over and over again here.

Meaningful and realistic rule changes I've heard being discussed are based around the following
1. Limiting handpassing.
2. Confining a certain no. of players to certain areas of pitch (I've been saying here this sounds like basis of best idea once it is limited to position on pitch for kickouts rather than when game is flowing)
3. Bring in an Aussie Rules type tackle to give the tackling player more of a option to dispossess the player in possession.

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1382 - 02/04/2024 10:17:12    2535126

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Replying To GreenandRed:  "What difference if good ideas to improve Gaeic gootball come from other sports, Gaelic football of some improvement that's not been in any sport yet?"
I want gaelic football to broadly resemble how gaelic football was always played.
Learning from other sports to some extent is ok but some people on here seem happy for our sport to morph into a mix of gaelic football/ basket ball and rugby.

Can you imagine American football supporters deciding their sport needed to take on aspects of soccer?.

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1382 - 02/04/2024 10:28:15    2535129

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Replying To bdbuddah:  "I want gaelic football to broadly resemble how gaelic football was always played.
Learning from other sports to some extent is ok but some people on here seem happy for our sport to morph into a mix of gaelic football/ basket ball and rugby.

Can you imagine American football supporters deciding their sport needed to take on aspects of soccer?."
I can't imagine that no. But there's a bit more similarity between Gaelic Football and Basketball or Rugby than American Football and Soccer. I'd love to see more catch and kick football and risks taken in Gaelic Football. But some coaches with their stats, their S&C, tech, will still try playing the percentages in how not to lose games and some coaches will take risks and find their way through blanket defences, and possession football. But 40 years ago with only 3 live Football games on TV a year and no Internet with bad news stories there were poor games too. Just not as many people watching from their couch not being entertained as if Gaelic Football should be getting them off their seat like a cliffhanger from Dallas or Glenroe. Holy God said Miley!

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7571 - 02/04/2024 13:04:12    2535171

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Replying To GreenandRed:  "I can't imagine that no. But there's a bit more similarity between Gaelic Football and Basketball or Rugby than American Football and Soccer. I'd love to see more catch and kick football and risks taken in Gaelic Football. But some coaches with their stats, their S&C, tech, will still try playing the percentages in how not to lose games and some coaches will take risks and find their way through blanket defences, and possession football. But 40 years ago with only 3 live Football games on TV a year and no Internet with bad news stories there were poor games too. Just not as many people watching from their couch not being entertained as if Gaelic Football should be getting them off their seat like a cliffhanger from Dallas or Glenroe. Holy God said Miley!"
I'd say 20 years ago there was little similarity between Gaelic football and basket ball.
20 years ago the similarities between Gaelic football and rugby was far less than today.
Rugby and basket ball hasn't changed to be be like gaelic football, our game has changed.

If I wanted to see aspects of rugby or basket ball in a sport I'd go to a rugby or basket ball game.

The issues we have with gaelic football are basically down to the fact that when fitness levels improved to make keep ball an efficient way of playing the game the rule book was not updated like it should have been to tackle this.

There were plenty of bad games years ago but what we often have to look at nowadays is a different level of badness, little man on man contests and looking at a bank of players doing uncontested handpassing in front of a blanket.
If you got a time machine and brought someone from the 1980's or 1990s and showed them a clip of this they would get hard recognise it as gaelic football.

Read the stats on uncontested hand passing (and even uncontested kick passing) in the original post if you think we don't have an issue.

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1382 - 02/04/2024 14:26:04    2535190

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Replying To bdbuddah:  "I'd say 20 years ago there was little similarity between Gaelic football and basket ball.
20 years ago the similarities between Gaelic football and rugby was far less than today.
Rugby and basket ball hasn't changed to be be like gaelic football, our game has changed.

If I wanted to see aspects of rugby or basket ball in a sport I'd go to a rugby or basket ball game.

The issues we have with gaelic football are basically down to the fact that when fitness levels improved to make keep ball an efficient way of playing the game the rule book was not updated like it should have been to tackle this.

There were plenty of bad games years ago but what we often have to look at nowadays is a different level of badness, little man on man contests and looking at a bank of players doing uncontested handpassing in front of a blanket.
If you got a time machine and brought someone from the 1980's or 1990s and showed them a clip of this they would get hard recognise it as gaelic football.

Read the stats on uncontested hand passing (and even uncontested kick passing) in the original post if you think we don't have an issue."
No doubt there's too much handpassing bbuddah. Even in my daughters U15 team last year I told her at the end of training that I wouldn't be going to watch her playing basketball. They weren't encouraged to kick the ball. But they managed to kick it the odd time and mix the 'possession' game and win their division last summer. But if U15 and younger LGFA teams aren't being coached to kick the ball it'll be a dying art soon enough. Their U14 coach in the second half of the year encouraged them to kick the ball though so there's a bit of hope. There's definitely bad games but some good ones too.

A very optimistic and naive step could be a 2 point no handpass score. From kickout to scorer passing from the boot only, no frees and ref encouraged to give advantage more to let the attack flow. If there's no advantage call it back for a 1 point free.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7571 - 02/04/2024 15:22:51    2535207

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Replying To GreenandRed:  "No doubt there's too much handpassing bbuddah. Even in my daughters U15 team last year I told her at the end of training that I wouldn't be going to watch her playing basketball. They weren't encouraged to kick the ball. But they managed to kick it the odd time and mix the 'possession' game and win their division last summer. But if U15 and younger LGFA teams aren't being coached to kick the ball it'll be a dying art soon enough. Their U14 coach in the second half of the year encouraged them to kick the ball though so there's a bit of hope. There's definitely bad games but some good ones too.

A very optimistic and naive step could be a 2 point no handpass score. From kickout to scorer passing from the boot only, no frees and ref encouraged to give advantage more to let the attack flow. If there's no advantage call it back for a 1 point free."
There is definitely some good games. Your own county Mayo have been involved in a few.

But in the majority of games I'd say the modern possession style doesn't grip you at all the way old games did.
People will point out players being fitter/ better prepared but the style of play is what it is.

Saying coaches should coach in a certain way just because they should doesn't really make sense either, we complain about the way the game is played nowadays but we all want to win and the management team will play the style they think will most likely get them victory.
Currently, with the level of fitness and current rulebook the best chance most teams have of winning a match is to play defensively.

The only way to change the direction the game is going in is to modify the rulebook under which the coaches/ managers operate.

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1382 - 02/04/2024 16:40:33    2535224

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Replying To bdbuddah:  "There is definitely some good games. Your own county Mayo have been involved in a few.

But in the majority of games I'd say the modern possession style doesn't grip you at all the way old games did.
People will point out players being fitter/ better prepared but the style of play is what it is.

Saying coaches should coach in a certain way just because they should doesn't really make sense either, we complain about the way the game is played nowadays but we all want to win and the management team will play the style they think will most likely get them victory.
Currently, with the level of fitness and current rulebook the best chance most teams have of winning a match is to play defensively.

The only way to change the direction the game is going in is to modify the rulebook under which the coaches/ managers operate."
Such as.......?

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1812 - 02/04/2024 16:58:00    2535228

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Replying To bdbuddah:  "There is definitely some good games. Your own county Mayo have been involved in a few.

But in the majority of games I'd say the modern possession style doesn't grip you at all the way old games did.
People will point out players being fitter/ better prepared but the style of play is what it is.

Saying coaches should coach in a certain way just because they should doesn't really make sense either, we complain about the way the game is played nowadays but we all want to win and the management team will play the style they think will most likely get them victory.
Currently, with the level of fitness and current rulebook the best chance most teams have of winning a match is to play defensively.

The only way to change the direction the game is going in is to modify the rulebook under which the coaches/ managers operate."
Armagh and ourselves have been involved in a good few good games in the past few years. Great to watch some neutrals might say. But we've lost a lot of those bigger good games because we don't stop playing freeflowing football and control the game more in the last 20 minutes, slow down the oppositiiin, buy a few more frees, hold onto the ball a bit better. I'd gladly grind out out an All Ireland playing boring posession football a bit more. Don't watch this space!

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7571 - 02/04/2024 17:12:04    2535229

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "Such as.......?"
I'll copy what I posted back to you this morning-

These ideas have been discussed over and over again here.

Meaningful and realistic rule changes I've heard being discussed are based around the following
1. Limiting handpassing.
2. Confining a certain no. of players to certain areas of pitch (I've been saying here this sounds like basis of best idea once it is limited to position on pitch for kickouts rather than when game is flowing)
3. Bring in an Aussie Rules type tackle to give the tackling player more of a option to dispossess the player in possession.

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1382 - 02/04/2024 17:30:42    2535233

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Replying To TheFlaker:  "Can you provide stats for attendances dwindling? Thanks."
Every Championship game last season bar the Semifinals and Final…. It's widely known that attendances have dropped by over 30% over the last 10 years… The attendance at the weekend double header ( Div 1/2 ) was pityfull and a clear example of falling attendance figures….but you keep your head buried deep in the sand…good lad…!

ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 2738 - 02/04/2024 17:57:28    2535238

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Replying To ForeverBlue2:  "Every Championship game last season bar the Semifinals and Final…. It's widely known that attendances have dropped by over 30% over the last 10 years… The attendance at the weekend double header ( Div 1/2 ) was pityfull and a clear example of falling attendance figures….but you keep your head buried deep in the sand…good lad…!"
You are not only clueless but proving my point again. You once again have clearly no idea what i post on here because you are repeating what i have said. Championship in it's current format is not fit for purpose. Too many games and too many mismatches. Shadow boxing until the latter stages.

Also league attendances are up, not in decline. You think yesterday was a poor crowd for a league final? Was it your first time watching a league final? Never anymore than half full at best. But overall league attendances are up. That's why i want league and championship properly merged and provincials scrapped. You ignore all of this though. Feel free to debate any of the points i have made individually.

Also i repeat myself but i want radical restructure for league and championship. That is literally the opposite of having my head buried in the sand.

TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 8059 - 02/04/2024 18:33:39    2535242

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Replying To bdbuddah:  "I'll copy what I posted back to you this morning-

These ideas have been discussed over and over again here.

Meaningful and realistic rule changes I've heard being discussed are based around the following
1. Limiting handpassing.
2. Confining a certain no. of players to certain areas of pitch (I've been saying here this sounds like basis of best idea once it is limited to position on pitch for kickouts rather than when game is flowing)
3. Bring in an Aussie Rules type tackle to give the tackling player more of a option to dispossess the player in possession."
Hadn't time to be going back over posts.
1 and 3 I could accept.
No 2 is a not on in a fluid game like football.

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1812 - 02/04/2024 18:50:33    2535247

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "Hadn't time to be going back over posts.
1 and 3 I could accept.
No 2 is a not on in a fluid game like football."
An example of a rule like this would be a team must have at least 3 players inside the opponents 14m line for kickouts.
Something like this is definitely workable, kickouts are a natural stoppage in the game so would be easy for officials to spot.
Penalise a team which haven't got these players in place in a reasonable time for the kickouts (say with a free from half way line).
Might make it unfeasible for say a corner forward to be part of a blanket.
If a team faced a reasonable penalty they would make sure to be in place for kickouts.

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1382 - 02/04/2024 21:28:11    2535268

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Replying To TheFlaker:  "You are not only clueless but proving my point again. You once again have clearly no idea what i post on here because you are repeating what i have said. Championship in it's current format is not fit for purpose. Too many games and too many mismatches. Shadow boxing until the latter stages.

Also league attendances are up, not in decline. You think yesterday was a poor crowd for a league final? Was it your first time watching a league final? Never anymore than half full at best. But overall league attendances are up. That's why i want league and championship properly merged and provincials scrapped. You ignore all of this though. Feel free to debate any of the points i have made individually.

Also i repeat myself but i want radical restructure for league and championship. That is literally the opposite of having my head buried in the sand."
You are clueless if you think 33k is a decent crowd for the 4 counties involved on Sunday… You are right in saying there are too many meaningless Championship games but there has been some small attendances at league matches too…: People are fed up paying in to see players passing the ball over and back and then back to the keeper while at the mean time you could hear a pin drop amongst the disinterested crowd who had the misfortune to turn up… League may be better for the reasons given but the Championship is usually a bore fest apart from a couple of games in Ulster and a couple at the end of the year…. Imagine playing 24 round robin games to eliminate 4 teams… the 4 of which will basically be known before a ball is thrown in… Bonkers stuff

ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 2738 - 02/04/2024 22:30:43    2535285

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Replying To ForeverBlue2:  "You are clueless if you think 33k is a decent crowd for the 4 counties involved on Sunday… You are right in saying there are too many meaningless Championship games but there has been some small attendances at league matches too…: People are fed up paying in to see players passing the ball over and back and then back to the keeper while at the mean time you could hear a pin drop amongst the disinterested crowd who had the misfortune to turn up… League may be better for the reasons given but the Championship is usually a bore fest apart from a couple of games in Ulster and a couple at the end of the year…. Imagine playing 24 round robin games to eliminate 4 teams… the 4 of which will basically be known before a ball is thrown in… Bonkers stuff"
What a thoroughly nonsensical post.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6117 - 03/04/2024 01:38:30    2535305

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