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Replying To letsgetgoing: "The inverted/reverse snobbery on some of the recent Hogan Stand threads/posts are hard to take. I grew up in a 2 bedroom house in a working class area and went to the local tech. It was fantastic to follow our fantastic rugby team (as cheap as I could) with a huge amount of other NORMAL !!! people over the last few weeks.
Some posters have a very negative mindsets (people I tend to avoid in life) and can't wait to criticise some of our top sports people and people who support them.
I include a couple of points for those people to consider and reflect on: No doubt some will jump in straight away and rubbish my arguments without undue consideration.
1. Our team is a whole Ireland team. It that not to be cherished? Jim McCoy and several others put their lives at risk to play for Ireland in the 70's.
Ireland call was specifically written to include all traditions in the island.
2. The GAA BAN was lifted and rightly so in the 1960's.
Young people should be encouraged to play several sports before they decide which sport they should concentrate on. A lot of talented young people want to become professional athletes and hopefully represent their country. The best of luck to them.
3. While many rugby players come from private schools, I believe that things are changing.
I don't think that you could call Andy Farrell (manager), Keith Earl's and Tadgh Furlong etc public school boys. Why tarnish the full team with the same brush?
4. New Zealand who just beat us at the weekend have several players from Tonga, Samoa and Fiji in their teams, for donkeys years, similar to England. Why have a go at the couple of players who could not make the big time in their home countries and moved abroad to try to improve their lives. Some posters seem to have forgotten that many Irish had to emigrate over the centuries. It is likely that we will see some kids of Irish people who emigrated to Australia in the 2000's playing for the Aussies before too long. The best of luck to them as their parents got up of their ***** to make a better life for themselves. The same goes for James, Bundee and Mack etc Delighted to have them playing for Ireland and proud to support them." Some posters have a very negative mindsets (people I tend to avoid in life) and can't wait to criticise some of our top sports people and people who support them.
I think the main issue is the blatant exaggeration and hyperbole that the media whip up at every world cup about the Irish rugby team. Not only do we have no pedigree in this tournament, but the media had us almost lined up as WC winners, before we had even played NZ. Now for someone who is not from rugby stock (i.e. most people) taking a casual interest in the WC, they would have seen the following:
1. Non stop hype, wall to wall coverage, world's no1. ranked team etc etc
2. Another QF exit.
There is a boy who cried wolf scenario here. In addition to that, there lack of criticism of the team when they fail to deliver is patently clear. The Irish Independent called their performance against NZ "brave beyond words". Read that again - "brave beyond words". Well if having an extra player for 25% of the game and still coming up short against a NZ team who we're told is a pale shadow of their former selves is "brave beyond words" then we've lost a sense of reality here. People who are not on the bandwagon (and thats a lot of people, despite what one might think given the wall to wall coverage) are looking at this stuff without green tinted glasses and thinking that perhaps, just perhaps there is a problem with hype, expectation, and sadly, arrogance from the media.
Of course, this is no reflection on the team, or indeed the sport itself, it is unfortunate that the lads have to deal with a media who does them no favours.
Ned_Stormcrow (Cavan) - Posts: 1071 - 18/10/2023 08:56:44
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Replying To Galway9801: "Re point 2
I mentioned this in reply to another Cork poster regarding the same issue,, I'm not sure what it's like in roscommon but here in galway city there's plenty of anti gaa snobbery too, as I'm sure there is in other parts of the country, this never seems to get called out for some reason
Re point 4
It's not really too unreasonable to believe that our sporting success on the international stage would be more enjoyable and genuine if all of our players were born and reared here.
It would be interesting to see if those players you mentioned even consider themselves Irish." Of course they don't! No more than some lad from Warsaw or Lagos considers themselves to be "new Irish." No more than any Dub in Birmingham or Connemara man in Kilburn ever thought of themselves as "New English." It's cringeworthy nonsense,
BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 3120 - 18/10/2023 10:09:32
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Replying To Ned_Stormcrow: "Some posters have a very negative mindsets (people I tend to avoid in life) and can't wait to criticise some of our top sports people and people who support them.
I think the main issue is the blatant exaggeration and hyperbole that the media whip up at every world cup about the Irish rugby team. Not only do we have no pedigree in this tournament, but the media had us almost lined up as WC winners, before we had even played NZ. Now for someone who is not from rugby stock (i.e. most people) taking a casual interest in the WC, they would have seen the following:
1. Non stop hype, wall to wall coverage, world's no1. ranked team etc etc
2. Another QF exit.
There is a boy who cried wolf scenario here. In addition to that, there lack of criticism of the team when they fail to deliver is patently clear. The Irish Independent called their performance against NZ "brave beyond words". Read that again - "brave beyond words". Well if having an extra player for 25% of the game and still coming up short against a NZ team who we're told is a pale shadow of their former selves is "brave beyond words" then we've lost a sense of reality here. People who are not on the bandwagon (and thats a lot of people, despite what one might think given the wall to wall coverage) are looking at this stuff without green tinted glasses and thinking that perhaps, just perhaps there is a problem with hype, expectation, and sadly, arrogance from the media.
Of course, this is no reflection on the team, or indeed the sport itself, it is unfortunate that the lads have to deal with a media who does them no favours." That is the reality. For the 1st time in 120 odd years we have had a team the last few years who are AS GOOD AS the All Blacks. We lost a 1 score game. We could've just as easily won it by a score. There's nothing currently between NZ, SA, France and ourselves. That's really good for us as historically we wouldn't be in the same league as them. But it doesn't justify the level of expectation there was in the media and population at large.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13880 - 18/10/2023 10:21:52
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Replying To Pope_Benedict: "That's not the point though. Of course they're all-in, or they wouldn't be there. The point is there's 3 New Zealanders and an Aussie in our back7. Just like Stuttgart '88, when half of Jack's team weren't born in Ireland.
Are the IRFU currently scouting worldwide talent, to alleviate potential skill position deficits in the next world cup squad? They probably are? Aki, Gibson-Park, Lowe and Hansen were 4 fantastic 'recruits' in fairness to IRFU. They really hit on 'the draft' there." More of the team that beat us weren't born in NZ. Only the Boks are all homegrown of the top teams. And I hope they win it again now.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13880 - 18/10/2023 10:24:08
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Replying To GreenandRed: "Bundee, Gibson Park and Lowe did take hits, same as Irish players do. Lowe's defending was poor on Saturday night. Three fine players and nice fellas no doubt about it. But none of the three of them would be here if the IRFU hadn't incentivised them to come here. And they're preventing Irish players getting into the squad. While they help to raise the standard of the national team the IRFU need to improve the overall standard of Irish and Irish qualified players. If they bring in players without an Irish connection they can play for the provinces, not for Ireland." Incentivised? They got a ####### job here no more or less than that. The IRFU doesn't make the eligibility rules.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13880 - 18/10/2023 10:26:03
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Replying To Claretandblue: "Still doesn't mean they're remotely Irish qualified. Simply playing for us as well paid and didn't make it in home countries." They all moved here in their early 20s. Who's to say if they would've made it in their home countries or not? Lads who were current All Blacks have moved here in the past.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13880 - 18/10/2023 10:28:18
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Replying To BarneyGrant: "Of course they don't! No more than some lad from Warsaw or Lagos considers themselves to be "new Irish." No more than any Dub in Birmingham or Connemara man in Kilburn ever thought of themselves as "New English." It's cringeworthy nonsense," I consider myself Irish and I wasn't born here.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13880 - 18/10/2023 11:27:41
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They moved here because they weren't close to becoming All Blacks, it's the dream of every kid in New Zealand to become an AB, they don't drram of representing a country 12,000 miles away that they know nothing about. At least the soccer team under Jack Charlton had Irish ancestry, world rugby's rules re citizenship are laughable.
Claretandblue (Westmeath) - Posts: 1916 - 18/10/2023 11:39:05
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Replying To KillingFields: "And you constantly take me far too seriously. You go over the top even though I've clearly been winding you up.
It's way too easy to get you wound up. Plenty of others do the same to you.
No new clubs in Connacht since when?
Same with Ulster. What time frame are you saying there hasn't been any new clubs?
Talented players always choose Gaa? Not true. If that was true plenty of pro rugby players who wrote county minors etc would have stayed in gaa..." What a ridiculous comparison. If someone is good enough to turn pro of course they will stick with rugby. I am talking about the other 99.9 per cent. As for winding me up? I barely ever respond to your posts anymore. You spend most of your time on here arguing with everybody else. You don't wind anyone up lad, poster on here troll you on rugby issues, I try and semi engage on serious issues because I actually love rugby.
Lastly on the new clubs, do I have to go and research all this for you. There is the odd one but in the past 30 years it is the same established clubs in Connacht. There are 25 or 26 registered clubs in Connacht. Only one of them was established in the past 20 years. They are a great outlet for the communities but the numbers go up and down as they have always done. At adult level they don't make any great impact or progress to a higher level, did you ever wonder why?
TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 8155 - 18/10/2023 11:53:15
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While Rugby is a bit of a threat to the GAA regarding players playing the game really up to this point it is only a small threat. Up until now the rugby success of provinces/ national teams since the turn of the century I think it has had little impact on numbers actually playing football and hurling. Funny thing is the GAA seems to have grown hugely in south Dublin. Reality is there is very few rugby clubs in most of the country. Where I live in Meath people have to travel 30 minutes to the nearest rugby clubs (Edenderry in Offaly or Navan). I not familiar with other counties but I would guess its a similar story in other counties.
A Cork lad I used to work with used to joke that Cork had more adult hurling teams than Ireland had adult Rugby teams meaning on that measure it was easier to get on Irish rugby team than Irish rugby team.
The success of the provences/ national team isn't down huge growth in numbers playing the game but the huge investment in player coaching/ preparation that private schools are able to provide. Private schools, despite the small numbers going to them are putting huge money into coaching and so are producing probably the best prepared rugby players anywhere. Even when you hear players making it from non traditional rugby areas it often turns out they went to private schools not in the areas they are from.
By the way the above isn't an anti rugby rant, I had a great time supporting the Rugby team in this world cup and was delighted they won the grand slam this year.
bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1400 - 18/10/2023 12:21:08
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Replying To BarneyGrant: "Of course they don't! No more than some lad from Warsaw or Lagos considers themselves to be "new Irish." No more than any Dub in Birmingham or Connemara man in Kilburn ever thought of themselves as "New English." It's cringeworthy nonsense," Yep. I lived in the UK for the guts of 15 years. Not for one second did I ever consider myself "New English".
Neither, I would say, did the natives....
streaker (Galway) - Posts: 503 - 18/10/2023 12:22:04
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Replying To Viking66: "I consider myself Irish and I wasn't born here." You are obviously Irish by descent and heritage. Same as was pointed out about lads playing soccer for Ireland under Charlton, or Shane McGowan for that matter,
BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 3120 - 18/10/2023 12:58:46
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Replying To Viking66: " Replying To Ned_Stormcrow: "Some posters have a very negative mindsets (people I tend to avoid in life) and can't wait to criticise some of our top sports people and people who support them.
I think the main issue is the blatant exaggeration and hyperbole that the media whip up at every world cup about the Irish rugby team. Not only do we have no pedigree in this tournament, but the media had us almost lined up as WC winners, before we had even played NZ. Now for someone who is not from rugby stock (i.e. most people) taking a casual interest in the WC, they would have seen the following:
1. Non stop hype, wall to wall coverage, world's no1. ranked team etc etc
2. Another QF exit.
There is a boy who cried wolf scenario here. In addition to that, there lack of criticism of the team when they fail to deliver is patently clear. The Irish Independent called their performance against NZ "brave beyond words". Read that again - "brave beyond words". Well if having an extra player for 25% of the game and still coming up short against a NZ team who we're told is a pale shadow of their former selves is "brave beyond words" then we've lost a sense of reality here. People who are not on the bandwagon (and thats a lot of people, despite what one might think given the wall to wall coverage) are looking at this stuff without green tinted glasses and thinking that perhaps, just perhaps there is a problem with hype, expectation, and sadly, arrogance from the media.
Of course, this is no reflection on the team, or indeed the sport itself, it is unfortunate that the lads have to deal with a media who does them no favours." That is the reality. For the 1st time in 120 odd years we have had a team the last few years who are AS GOOD AS the All Blacks. We lost a 1 score game. We could've just as easily won it by a score. There's nothing currently between NZ, SA, France and ourselves. That's really good for us as historically we wouldn't be in the same league as them. But it doesn't justify the level of expectation there was in the media and population at large."
Are Kilkenny better than Limerick?
BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 3120 - 18/10/2023 13:01:51
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Replying To bdbuddah: "While Rugby is a bit of a threat to the GAA regarding players playing the game really up to this point it is only a small threat. Up until now the rugby success of provinces/ national teams since the turn of the century I think it has had little impact on numbers actually playing football and hurling. Funny thing is the GAA seems to have grown hugely in south Dublin. Reality is there is very few rugby clubs in most of the country. Where I live in Meath people have to travel 30 minutes to the nearest rugby clubs (Edenderry in Offaly or Navan). I not familiar with other counties but I would guess its a similar story in other counties.
A Cork lad I used to work with used to joke that Cork had more adult hurling teams than Ireland had adult Rugby teams meaning on that measure it was easier to get on Irish rugby team than Irish rugby team.
The success of the provences/ national team isn't down huge growth in numbers playing the game but the huge investment in player coaching/ preparation that private schools are able to provide. Private schools, despite the small numbers going to them are putting huge money into coaching and so are producing probably the best prepared rugby players anywhere. Even when you hear players making it from non traditional rugby areas it often turns out they went to private schools not in the areas they are from.
By the way the above isn't an anti rugby rant, I had a great time supporting the Rugby team in this world cup and was delighted they won the grand slam this year." Would disagree with few points....
But could you try put in a paragraph or two just make ot easier to read.
There isn't rugby clubs in every parish or close to it. Never will either. And no shame in that.
Will always be far more Soccer clubs as well as far easier to create/run a soccer team/club...
He success of provinces is down to increase playing numbers combined with a few other factors. Putting it mainly on money in some schools isn't really true. These schools have been spending big money on rugby for years and it had little effect on Irelands ability.
Saying its often the case players from "non traditional areas" make it its because they attended a fee paying school isn't really true
Yes some will have attended 1 of these schools for some/all their time in secondary school but most often it's not the case. Do you have examples of these players??
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3674 - 18/10/2023 13:59:55
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Interestingly there of the 9 players that reached over 100 caps for Ireland there and 4 from Limerick Earls, Murray, John Hayes and Paul O' Connell none of whom went to fee paying schools AFAIK and 3 coming from rural strong GAA areas. The success of the IRFU is down to organisation rather than huge playing numbers. When you consider that Ireland were the whipping boys in the 5 Nations back in the late 80s, 90s and are now number 1 in the World this is a serious achievement. Rugby is 4 or 5 sport in Ireland whereas in NZ it is number one. Even since Munster success back in the 2000s little or no new clubs were set up around Limerick. Rugby is no threat to the GAA. There will be the odd player that that will be good at both sports and will possibly choose rugby but I don't think there are significant examples of this to consider Rugby a threat.
journeyman (Limerick) - Posts: 141 - 18/10/2023 14:35:36
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Replying To KillingFields: "Would disagree with few points....
But could you try put in a paragraph or two just make ot easier to read.
There isn't rugby clubs in every parish or close to it. Never will either. And no shame in that.
Will always be far more Soccer clubs as well as far easier to create/run a soccer team/club...
He success of provinces is down to increase playing numbers combined with a few other factors. Putting it mainly on money in some schools isn't really true. These schools have been spending big money on rugby for years and it had little effect on Irelands ability.
Saying its often the case players from "non traditional areas" make it its because they attended a fee paying school isn't really true
Yes some will have attended 1 of these schools for some/all their time in secondary school but most often it's not the case. Do you have examples of these players??" Off the top of my head in recent years I know Devon Toner from Meath and the Kearney brothers from Louth went to fee paying schools not located locally. I don't know the background of most players off the top of my head but generally if you hear the background of top level rugby players it is usually private schools, even the ones from non traditional rugby areas.
Found the below article on the Internet. It's from 2018 but I doubt much has changed since. The statistics at the end of the article show how players feeding into the provincial/ international set ups are dominated by players from private schools.
https://m.independent.ie/sport/rugby/six-nations/ewan-mackenna-private-schools-and-elite-class-culture-is-why-rugby-will-never-be-embraced-by-country-like-the-gaa/36557141.html
bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1400 - 18/10/2023 17:09:10
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Replying To journeyman: "Interestingly there of the 9 players that reached over 100 caps for Ireland there and 4 from Limerick Earls, Murray, John Hayes and Paul O' Connell none of whom went to fee paying schools AFAIK and 3 coming from rural strong GAA areas. The success of the IRFU is down to organisation rather than huge playing numbers. When you consider that Ireland were the whipping boys in the 5 Nations back in the late 80s, 90s and are now number 1 in the World this is a serious achievement. Rugby is 4 or 5 sport in Ireland whereas in NZ it is number one. Even since Munster success back in the 2000s little or no new clubs were set up around Limerick. Rugby is no threat to the GAA. There will be the odd player that that will be good at both sports and will possibly choose rugby but I don't think there are significant examples of this to consider Rugby a threat." None of those 4 went to fee paying schools.
Earls was in Nessans iq Moylish and Munchins.
O Connell Ard Scoil Ris
Murray was Munchins
Hayes. not sure. he started playing rugby at 18 anyway.
Yeah IRFU got lot of things right in pro era espicially after 1999 world cup.
Limerick city couldnt/didnt really need any more clubs but many ofq them and the rural cluqbs expanded in playing numbers huqely.
Very good post...
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3674 - 18/10/2023 17:37:28
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Replying To BarneyGrant: " Replying To Viking66: "[quote=Ned_Stormcrow: "Some posters have a very negative mindsets (people I tend to avoid in life) and can't wait to criticise some of our top sports people and people who support them.
I think the main issue is the blatant exaggeration and hyperbole that the media whip up at every world cup about the Irish rugby team. Not only do we have no pedigree in this tournament, but the media had us almost lined up as WC winners, before we had even played NZ. Now for someone who is not from rugby stock (i.e. most people) taking a casual interest in the WC, they would have seen the following:
1. Non stop hype, wall to wall coverage, world's no1. ranked team etc etc
2. Another QF exit.
There is a boy who cried wolf scenario here. In addition to that, there lack of criticism of the team when they fail to deliver is patently clear. The Irish Independent called their performance against NZ "brave beyond words". Read that again - "brave beyond words". Well if having an extra player for 25% of the game and still coming up short against a NZ team who we're told is a pale shadow of their former selves is "brave beyond words" then we've lost a sense of reality here. People who are not on the bandwagon (and thats a lot of people, despite what one might think given the wall to wall coverage) are looking at this stuff without green tinted glasses and thinking that perhaps, just perhaps there is a problem with hype, expectation, and sadly, arrogance from the media.
Of course, this is no reflection on the team, or indeed the sport itself, it is unfortunate that the lads have to deal with a media who does them no favours." That is the reality. For the 1st time in 120 odd years we have had a team the last few years who are AS GOOD AS the All Blacks. We lost a 1 score game. We could've just as easily won it by a score. There's nothing currently between NZ, SA, France and ourselves. That's really good for us as historically we wouldn't be in the same league as them. But it doesn't justify the level of expectation there was in the media and population at large."
Are Kilkenny better than Limerick?"]They currently are as good as the All Blacks. Kilkenny aren't as good as Limerick. But wouldn't be any better than Clare tbh.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13880 - 18/10/2023 18:33:49
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Replying To bdbuddah: "Off the top of my head in recent years I know Devon Toner from Meath and the Kearney brothers from Louth went to fee paying schools not located locally. I don't know the background of most players off the top of my head but generally if you hear the background of top level rugby players it is usually private schools, even the ones from non traditional rugby areas.
Found the below article on the Internet. It's from 2018 but I doubt much has changed since. The statistics at the end of the article show how players feeding into the provincial/ international set ups are dominated by players from private schools.
https://m.independent.ie/sport/rugby/six-nations/ewan-mackenna-private-schools-and-elite-class-culture-is-why-rugby-will-never-be-embraced-by-country-like-the-gaa/36557141.html" They will be dominated in Leinster and then the Munster players from Cork by fee schools as by and large players from those schools train more and get coached by higher standatd of coaches than those elsewhere.
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3674 - 18/10/2023 21:56:57
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Replying To KillingFields: "They will be dominated in Leinster and then the Munster players from Cork by fee schools as by and large players from those schools train more and get coached by higher standatd of coaches than those elsewhere." That's a fair point about the training at fee paying schools. In the 80s we trained 4 times a week with a match on Saturday during the season, most of which was before Xmas.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 13880 - 19/10/2023 10:30:35
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