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Replying To legendzxix: "There's very little wiggle room for change in the football calendar. The league is nearly set in stone over 7 rounds plus finals. Provincials are as they are over 3 or 4 rounds. The All-Ireland series has 7 rounds." At Dublin's peak, they played 8 in League, 3 in Lein and 6 in AIC groups/KO for a total of 17 matches per season (excl pre season).
In my combined idea, they'd play 12 in the regular season (incl 2-3 in Lein), 1 in League Final and 2-3 in AIC for a total of 15-16 matches per season (excl pre season and plus maybe, at most, 1 stand alone Lein QF).
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2887 - 16/02/2024 18:23:52
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Replying To Whammo86: "Do you not think it bizarre at all the way there's so much deference to the secondary competition at the expense of the championship.
Really there should be Provincials, maybe with group stages moving onto knockout rounds and then move on to an All Ireland of 2 groups of 8 in each tier.
It's just making the championship quite like the way the league used to be. That wasn't the right format for the secondary competition but it would be perfect for the Championship.
Imagine you'd Mayo, Monaghan, Donegal, Galway all in Dublin's group, there's no way they are losing their first 2 matches in that competition and if they did they'd be in serious trouble of not making through to the knockout rounds." I accept your point but people are voting with their feet. Good crowds are attending league matches. Players enjoy the balanced format. Division 4 counties have a fair opportunity to win a league title in Croke Park. It can be used as a spring board for challenging in the Tailteann Cup.
If 8 provincial finalists are to continue qualifying for the All-Ireland group stage, league seeding could be used for provincial draws, with the provincial draws taking place on the Monday morning after the league finals. The exception being the continued rotation of counties travelling to London and New York.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8282 - 17/02/2024 01:48:31
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Replying To legendzxix: "I accept your point but people are voting with their feet. Good crowds are attending league matches. Players enjoy the balanced format. Division 4 counties have a fair opportunity to win a league title in Croke Park. It can be used as a spring board for challenging in the Tailteann Cup.
If 8 provincial finalists are to continue qualifying for the All-Ireland group stage, league seeding could be used for provincial draws, with the provincial draws taking place on the Monday morning after the league finals. The exception being the continued rotation of counties travelling to London and New York." Surely even more people would go to championship games in greater numbers than those going to the league in February and March.
You've the top teams playing more regularly in the hurling championship and people are voting with their feet and going to these games.
They've their field split in 2 and it makes a lot of sense.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 18/02/2024 14:34:48
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Bake it all in together like in my Combined League Championship tiers of 16. The best pairings could be played in the summer months, including holding over Prov SFs and Finals after Prov QFs in Feb as the '4 groups of 4' are set in each tier at that time. The games scheduled for Feb/Mar could be the less attractive ones but would need to be taken seriously as they also count towards the 12-match table.
Let's have our cake and eat it too!
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2887 - 18/02/2024 16:07:24
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Replying To Whammo86: "Surely even more people would go to championship games in greater numbers than those going to the league in February and March.
You've the top teams playing more regularly in the hurling championship and people are voting with their feet and going to these games.
They've their field split in 2 and it makes a lot of sense." You never know but it seems unlikely that the highly praised National Football League format is going to change.
The Cavan and Leitrim football championship formats could suit a three tiered football championship. Just musing over the possibility and putting it out there for scrutiny.
4 provincial winners, 7 league qualifiers and 1 Tailteann winner could compete in 1 group of 12 playing 4 rounds. They could seed the fixtures so that provincial winners do not play each other. 2 home games for all. Top 8 into quarter-finals.
Provincial runners-up could be offered at least a Tailteann Cup spot, they might of course qualify for the All-Ireland through the league. The tier 3 winner should also be offered at least a Tailteann Cup spot. The remaining spots can be offered through league placing for a total of 10 Tailteann Cup counties. All playing 4 games, with 2 at home. 3rd to 6th into quarter-finals. 1st and 2nd direct to semi-finals.
The remaining teams into a Tier 3 Championship. 10 teams playing 4 rounds, 2 home games each. 2nd to 6th and New York into quarter-finals. 1st team direct to semi-finals. Might have to offer Tier 3 finalists only a game in Croke Park.
All-Ireland would continue to offer quarter-finalists Croke Park. The Tailteann semi-finals would continue in Croke Park. The Tier 3 final only would be in Croke Park.
The Tailteann semi-finals can be curtain raisers to the All-Ireland semi-finals. The two highest ranked Tier 3 counties can have home advantage in the semi-finals.
The Tier 3 final and the Tailteann final can be a double header on the day before the All-Ireland final.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8282 - 19/02/2024 04:59:47
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Replying To legendzxix: "You never know but it seems unlikely that the highly praised National Football League format is going to change.
The Cavan and Leitrim football championship formats could suit a three tiered football championship. Just musing over the possibility and putting it out there for scrutiny.
4 provincial winners, 7 league qualifiers and 1 Tailteann winner could compete in 1 group of 12 playing 4 rounds. They could seed the fixtures so that provincial winners do not play each other. 2 home games for all. Top 8 into quarter-finals.
Provincial runners-up could be offered at least a Tailteann Cup spot, they might of course qualify for the All-Ireland through the league. The tier 3 winner should also be offered at least a Tailteann Cup spot. The remaining spots can be offered through league placing for a total of 10 Tailteann Cup counties. All playing 4 games, with 2 at home. 3rd to 6th into quarter-finals. 1st and 2nd direct to semi-finals.
The remaining teams into a Tier 3 Championship. 10 teams playing 4 rounds, 2 home games each. 2nd to 6th and New York into quarter-finals. 1st team direct to semi-finals. Might have to offer Tier 3 finalists only a game in Croke Park.
All-Ireland would continue to offer quarter-finalists Croke Park. The Tailteann semi-finals would continue in Croke Park. The Tier 3 final only would be in Croke Park.
The Tailteann semi-finals can be curtain raisers to the All-Ireland semi-finals. The two highest ranked Tier 3 counties can have home advantage in the semi-finals.
The Tier 3 final and the Tailteann final can be a double header on the day before the All-Ireland final." Yeah, a 3-tier, 4-match AIC 'Swiss System' phase, with a 12-10-10 split, prior to a 3-tier KO looks like a good structure.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2887 - 21/02/2024 19:19:01
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It's a bit like the European rugby champions cup format which is terrible.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 22/02/2024 15:05:46
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Replying To Whammo86: "It's a bit like the European rugby champions cup format which is terrible." I think the EPCR '4 groups of 6' is quite a bit better than what they had since COVID (2 'crazy' groups of 12). I think the Munster SHC '3 of 5' is the sweet spot.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2887 - 22/02/2024 21:12:31
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Replying To omahant: "I think the EPCR '4 groups of 6' is quite a bit better than what they had since COVID (2 'crazy' groups of 12). I think the Munster SHC '3 of 5' is the sweet spot." It's an improvement but there's still too little at stake early stages.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 23/02/2024 09:53:29
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I'd be thinking could the season benefit from shaving 1 week off at the start and end.
How do you simplify the structure and give more time to breathe.
Can we make the games that are played impactful.
Having a proper promotion and relegation through championship instead of the weird league qualifying I think is important too.
Like Fermanagh were awful in last year's Tailteann but it didn't really matter that much because they had that shot at qualifying through division 2 anyway.
Having a 12 game league phase seems like too much to make sure things stay interesting even with relegation.
Having 2/3 or 3/4 of teams making the knockout stages isn't great either.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 23/02/2024 11:22:37
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Replying To Whammo86: "It's an improvement but there's still too little at stake early stages." In the EPRC, there were few dead rubbers after 3 games, with most basement teams vying for a possible 4th place. Top teams competed for high seeds too, given the weighty home advantage in EPRC KO ties.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2887 - 23/02/2024 15:15:32
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Replying To Whammo86: "I'd be thinking could the season benefit from shaving 1 week off at the start and end.
How do you simplify the structure and give more time to breathe.
Can we make the games that are played impactful.
Having a proper promotion and relegation through championship instead of the weird league qualifying I think is important too.
Like Fermanagh were awful in last year's Tailteann but it didn't really matter that much because they had that shot at qualifying through division 2 anyway.
Having a 12 game league phase seems like too much to make sure things stay interesting even with relegation.
Having 2/3 or 3/4 of teams making the knockout stages isn't great either." My "3-in-1", with Provs, League & AIC all inter-connected in a 12-match season?
This leads into 3 or 4 AIC KO rounds (preceded, or not, by League Finals).
OK, how many 'non-KO' games is a good season for all? - given the tight split season, I say 12, but it could be 10.
Keeping a 12-match season meaningful for all can be done with: 1) 'high/not-too-high' KO berths (say 60%, like Munster SHC) to limit dead rubbers; and 2) award byes, home ties and high seeding to top teams as carrots.
I wouldn't want inter-county to end any earlier (maybe stretch to Aug).
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2887 - 23/02/2024 15:42:30
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Colm O'Rourke and Eamonn Fitzmaurice have both called for the provincial championships to be played before the league.
If the league followed after the provincial championships, would the league finals be retained? Would there be an appetite for more or less going straight from a league phase to a group phase. Would there be any need for a group phase after a league phase?
Just musing over the options of such a change to the intercounty calendar. The 11 league qualifiers, 4 provincial winners and Tailteann winner could enter the All-Ireland 16 in knockout or double elimination format. Top 8 seeds drawn against the lower 8 seeds, all seeding on league placing. Division winners could be guaranteed home advantage in Round 1, all other counties by luck of the draw. 8 Round 1 winners drawn against each other in Round 2A. Division winners again given home advantage, all others by luck of the draw. Round 2A winners going on to the quarter-finals. Round 2A losers given home advantage against Round 2B winners in Round 3. Round 2B would only offer home advantage by luck of the draw. Quarter-finals onwards in Croke Park.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8282 - 26/02/2024 09:17:56
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Well, I did my best with my "3-in-1" - Provs, League & AIC all inter-connected, in a 12-match season (before any KO). The season is structured and the Prov Councils would be happy their competitions are retained. It doesn't matter if Ulster takes their regional competition seriously or Dublin or others don't care about theirs - these are side shows regional competitions incorporated into the main League/AIC. In addition to incorporating Prov Championship results into the League tables, the 12 matches (from 15 own-tier opponents) could also be based on playing 3 opponents from each of four seeding pots (as far as possible, given the inclusion of Prov results).
You could start with two Prov Rds in Feb after a few pre season warmups (with others playing any two games) and have these games as well as 'delayed' Prov SFs & Finals later in the Summer as part of the 12-game schedule.
I have the top 10 of 16 advancing to respective AIC Tier KOs, preceded by the top 2 in each playing non-KO League Finals. The latter could be kept or dropped - 3 up/3 down based on AIC KO only - is it ok that Tier 2 10th team wins 3 straight for promotion? What is there not to like - is it not easy to understand, and most of all, would it be fair?
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2887 - 27/02/2024 02:26:42
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Not all counties get to participate in the hurling provincial championships. A standard is set. Is there an argument for something similar in football?
If the bottom third of counties from all provinces were excluded from provincial championships, Ulster 6, Leinster 8, Munster 4 and Connacht 4 would be the breakdown.
3 Ulster and 3 Leinster could enter a Northeast Conference. 2 Munster and 3 Connacht, including New York, could enter a Southwest conference. The winner of each conference can be promoted to their provincial championship.
The provincial championships can then be played over 5 weekends, with a rest weekend between each provincial round. The Connacht and Munster championships would have semi-finals on week 2 and finals on week 4. Ulster and Leinster would have quarter-finals on week 1, semi-finals on week 3 and finals on week 5. The Northeast and Southwest conferences would also have quarter-finals on week 1, semi-finals on week 3 and finals on week 5.
The provincial championships can then allow for a rest weekend after the league finals. People are dismissive of provincial championships but bring in some form of promotion and relegation to the provincial championships, then a standard is set.
All-Ireland winners, provincial winners and conference winners should be guaranteed a place in their provincial championship. The remaining places can be determined by league placing.
Provincial winners only should qualify for the All-Ireland series. The remaining 12 places taken by the Tailteann winner and 11 league qualifiers.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8282 - 27/02/2024 14:44:22
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Replying To legendzxix: "Not all counties get to participate in the hurling provincial championships. A standard is set. Is there an argument for something similar in football?
If the bottom third of counties from all provinces were excluded from provincial championships, Ulster 6, Leinster 8, Munster 4 and Connacht 4 would be the breakdown.
3 Ulster and 3 Leinster could enter a Northeast Conference. 2 Munster and 3 Connacht, including New York, could enter a Southwest conference. The winner of each conference can be promoted to their provincial championship.
The provincial championships can then be played over 5 weekends, with a rest weekend between each provincial round. The Connacht and Munster championships would have semi-finals on week 2 and finals on week 4. Ulster and Leinster would have quarter-finals on week 1, semi-finals on week 3 and finals on week 5. The Northeast and Southwest conferences would also have quarter-finals on week 1, semi-finals on week 3 and finals on week 5.
The provincial championships can then allow for a rest weekend after the league finals. People are dismissive of provincial championships but bring in some form of promotion and relegation to the provincial championships, then a standard is set.
All-Ireland winners, provincial winners and conference winners should be guaranteed a place in their provincial championship. The remaining places can be determined by league placing.
Provincial winners only should qualify for the All-Ireland series. The remaining 12 places taken by the Tailteann winner and 11 league qualifiers." No. There isn't an argument for something similar in football. GAA should be looking for ways to improve the standard of football in so called weaker counties, not increasing the gap in standards even more.
GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7651 - 27/02/2024 15:14:11
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Replying To GreenandRed: "No. There isn't an argument for something similar in football. GAA should be looking for ways to improve the standard of football in so called weaker counties, not increasing the gap in standards even more." Sligo, Leitrim, London, New York, Tipperary and Waterford aren't at the races in their provincial championships. Entering a Southwest Conference would give them competition at a fair level. The winner then being rewarded with a place in their provincial championship.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8282 - 28/02/2024 01:11:19
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Replying To legendzxix: "Sligo, Leitrim, London, New York, Tipperary and Waterford aren't at the races in their provincial championships. Entering a Southwest Conference would give them competition at a fair level. The winner then being rewarded with a place in their provincial championship." Tipp won Munster 4 years ago, Sligo have won the last 2 Connacht u20s and should be competitive in the Senior from next year. They won Connacht in 2007.
Every County should be able to enter their Provincial SFC . The Tailteann is there for the weaker teams and we'll probably see a 3 tier structure in the future.
Your argument taken to its logical conclusion would mean only Dublin could enter the Leinster SFC !!
Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1950 - 28/02/2024 08:54:37
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Replying To legendzxix: "Sligo, Leitrim, London, New York, Tipperary and Waterford aren't at the races in their provincial championships. Entering a Southwest Conference would give them competition at a fair level. The winner then being rewarded with a place in their provincial championship." Tipp won a Munster just a few years ago!
skirge7 (UK) - Posts: 254 - 28/02/2024 09:16:16
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Replying To legendzxix: "Sligo, Leitrim, London, New York, Tipperary and Waterford aren't at the races in their provincial championships. Entering a Southwest Conference would give them competition at a fair level. The winner then being rewarded with a place in their provincial championship." Tipperary won the Munster football championship in 2020 ( 4 years ago). Kerry did not even make it to the final.
letsgetgoing (Roscommon) - Posts: 630 - 28/02/2024 09:31:57
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