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McDonagh Cup Link To All-Ireland To Be Removed?

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Replying To Whammo86:  "You could reduce the length of the competition and have 2 mixed groups of 6 (or even 7)

You'd have a group of 6 be 1 half of the Munster draw and 1 half of the Leinster draw.

Provincial championship games count towards the group fixtures.

Provincial finals would be a bonus round for the participants.

Whilst the Munster championship group has been great to date, it's not actually that future proofed.

If Limerick start to dominate and if say Waterford get cut off from rest it is more likely to grow stale compared to a more mixed up format."
On balance, the best format is divisions of 6 in the league. Knockout Munster and Leinster featuring the 12 McCarthy Cup counties only. The All-Ireland then in 2 groups of 6. Provincial champions Seed 1, provincial runners-up Seed 2 and all other teams seeded on league placing. Group winners into semi-finals. 2nd and 3rd into quarter-finals. 6th placed teams into relegation final.
The only problem is I don't see the GAA realistically reverting back to divisions of 6 anytime soon.
Hurling divisions of 6 could just have a final in Division 1A. All other divisions could see a relegation/promotion playoff between 5th from the higher division and 2nd from the lower division.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7870 - 14/12/2023 22:30:44    2516846

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Replying To legendzxix:  "On balance, the best format is divisions of 6 in the league. Knockout Munster and Leinster featuring the 12 McCarthy Cup counties only. The All-Ireland then in 2 groups of 6. Provincial champions Seed 1, provincial runners-up Seed 2 and all other teams seeded on league placing. Group winners into semi-finals. 2nd and 3rd into quarter-finals. 6th placed teams into relegation final.
The only problem is I don't see the GAA realistically reverting back to divisions of 6 anytime soon.
Hurling divisions of 6 could just have a final in Division 1A. All other divisions could see a relegation/promotion playoff between 5th from the higher division and 2nd from the lower division."
You proposed increasing the size of div1a? You were right too.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12027 - 15/12/2023 08:09:59    2516866

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Replying To Viking66:  "You proposed increasing the size of div1a? You were right too."
I did and I agree with it. There is merit in Whammo's suggestion however, especially if the winds of change decide the McCarthy Cup should increase to 12.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7870 - 15/12/2023 11:32:56    2516898

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Replying To Viking66:  "You proposed increasing the size of div1a? You were right too."
I think a season could be played with divisions of 7, knockout provincials and 2 mixed groups of 6 for the All Ireland.

16 weeks from April to All Ireland hurling final weekend to play 11 rounds is tight but doable. It's roughly 2 rounds break, 2 rounds break.

Teams playing in a Provincial final would be straight out the next week but you could pair them up so the it's Leinster winner v Munster loser.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4236 - 15/12/2023 11:36:27    2516900

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Replying To legendzxix:  "I did and I agree with it. There is merit in Whammo's suggestion however, especially if the winds of change decide the McCarthy Cup should increase to 12."
Would be great longterm if it could get back to 15 or 16 tbh.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12027 - 15/12/2023 12:14:04    2516909

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Replying To Viking66:  "Would be great longterm if it could get back to 15 or 16 tbh."
Is it realistic? Outside of the established top 9 and Offaly, other counties are not bringing crowds.
The current provincial structure is probably fine.
The GAA top brass were suggesting having the McDonagh final as curtain raiser to an All-Ireland semi-final. Expanding the McDonagh to 8 and having semi-finals for the top 4 is possibly the best way to achieve that, and decoupling the McDonagh from the McCarthy. The preliminary quarter-final should be unnecessary.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7870 - 15/12/2023 23:41:44    2517012

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Is it realistic? Outside of the established top 9 and Offaly, other counties are not bringing crowds.
The current provincial structure is probably fine.
The GAA top brass were suggesting having the McDonagh final as curtain raiser to an All-Ireland semi-final. Expanding the McDonagh to 8 and having semi-finals for the top 4 is possibly the best way to achieve that, and decoupling the McDonagh from the McCarthy. The preliminary quarter-final should be unnecessary."
As Pikeman pointed out in another thread about Wexfords footballers if any of the middle tier counties got truly competitive the crowds would probably come out.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 12027 - 16/12/2023 10:39:47    2517026

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I think a season could be played with divisions of 7, knockout provincials and 2 mixed groups of 6 for the All Ireland.

16 weeks from April to All Ireland hurling final weekend to play 11 rounds is tight but doable. It's roughly 2 rounds break, 2 rounds break.

Teams playing in a Provincial final would be straight out the next week but you could pair them up so the it's Leinster winner v Munster loser."
Would you insist on matches in the 7s, Provs and 6s be played separately? - or allow ties to double-up (or even triple up) to reduce the match count?

Say - with all three competitions set up/drawn at the outset, and the 6s having 3 from each province - you could, depending on the group compositions, have a Limerick v Clare Munster SF potentially counting towards the 7 & 6 as well. If not, this pairing could be played 3 or 4 times a year (just like now) while say, Limerick might not meet Kilkenny at all, all year.

Would it be better to have League and AIC group stages merge and count more meaningfully, with more opponents played once, toward AIC qualification?

Although, isn't it great watching Limerick v Clare play 3 times a year? - should we have our cake and not want to eat it?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2614 - 17/12/2023 14:02:45    2517164

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Firstly I'm neutral in this. It would depend is the glass half full or half empty. Would teams want to qualify for provincial finals for the safety net of a quarter-final spot or settle for a preliminary quarter-final spot without a safety net with a quarter-final the following week if they get through?"
Munster 3rd/4th more likely happy with settling, cruising to QFs - Leinster 3rd/4th not so.

How about 4 groups, each team playing in 2 of them, with repeat ties doubling up [3 Leinster teams play 8 games (with 3 crossover), all 8 other teams play 7 games].

Munster 5
Leinster 6
Group A with Munster 3 Leinster 3
Group B with Munster 2 Leinster 3

Top 2 in each group advance.
Top 2 in Munster & Leinster to Prov Finals.
2 Champs to AIC SFs, with all 6 others competing for 2 other SF berths (the 6 playing 2 KO rounds, with teams qualifying twice with 'best Pts/SD per game average' earning byes to QFs). If 4 teams qualify twice - treat the Prov Finals as AIC SFs.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2614 - 17/12/2023 14:58:49    2517175

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Replying To Whammo86:  "The All Ireland needs to be 12 teams, one table, 6 or 8 games each. Include Provincial championship games (knockout format but teams will still play most of their provincial rivals) and interprovincial fixtures in the league phase.

6 teams to the knockout round.

More matches, still a high enough bar to qualify for the knockout rounds. Knockout rounds themselves simplified.

You don't have provincial finalists being able to meet 3 times in the championship.

3 developing counties get their chance at big games each year. 1 down."
I really like this.

No safety net for losing Prov finalists as well to make the league table more valuable?

Maybe no net for Prov Champs as well?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2614 - 17/12/2023 15:07:38    2517179

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Replying To omahant:  "Would you insist on matches in the 7s, Provs and 6s be played separately? - or allow ties to double-up (or even triple up) to reduce the match count?

Say - with all three competitions set up/drawn at the outset, and the 6s having 3 from each province - you could, depending on the group compositions, have a Limerick v Clare Munster SF potentially counting towards the 7 & 6 as well. If not, this pairing could be played 3 or 4 times a year (just like now) while say, Limerick might not meet Kilkenny at all, all year.

Would it be better to have League and AIC group stages merge and count more meaningfully, with more opponents played once, toward AIC qualification?

Although, isn't it great watching Limerick v Clare play 3 times a year? - should we have our cake and not want to eat it?"
I don't think people would be very receptive to an all in merger of league and championship.

To be fair they'd have a point too, there'd maybe be too many low stakes games.

It's hard to design a season with a lot of guaranteed games in one competition without it just being games for games sake a making the climax of the league phase uninteresting.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4236 - 18/12/2023 11:05:08    2517272

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Replying To omahant:  "I really like this.

No safety net for losing Prov finalists as well to make the league table more valuable?

Maybe no net for Prov Champs as well?"
Yeah no safety net for Provincial champions, their results count to the table as is and if they hadn't qualified they'd likely have performed quite badly in their other games to miss out.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4236 - 18/12/2023 15:30:26    2517312

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