National Forum

Jim Mcguinness-Right As Usual On Championship

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Replying To tirawleybaron:  "I would suggest the following to remove all criticism for good.

1. Extend Sam Maguire numbers to 20 for one year
2. 5 groups of 4 (all provincial winners plus best placed league team as seeded teams)
3. Group winners into QF
4. Group 2nd place into wildcard round (get rid of prelim q finals title)
5. Only the 3 best third place teams to progress (based on results v top two in their group)
6. Any team that ships a ten point beating (or more) can't re enter the following year.

Louth an Sligo gave up last week, so shouldn't be allowed in next year"
5) With only 3 x 3rds advancing, you have a 13-team KO field (10 to Rd 1, 3 byes).
4) Why is the 'Wild Card Round' not the 'Prelim QF Rd' by another name?
3) So, only 3 of 5 group winners to QFs, with 5 Wild Card ties?
6) Too harsh to dump based on one 10-pts defeat, especially with a limited number of good replacements from only 12 in lower-tier. Just have 2 of 20 worst record teams relegated, with 2 up.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2566 - 25/06/2023 15:12:11    2489126

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Groups of 4 are fair for the guarantee of 3 games. Many would agree with the top 2 going through. Provincial runners-up like Louth, Clare and Sligo being seeded above Mayo, Roscommon, Tyrone and Monaghan is a flaw."
With 4 groups of 4, advance 3 'wild cards' in lieu of 4 x 3rds (keeps everyone in the chase, jeopardy with no guarantee for 3rd place - 5 byes, 5 out & 3 Prelim QF ties).

Or, with the 'Jim McG KO 16', I'd tweak Rd 1 -
Pot 1v1 (open draw, Prov non repeat),
4 winners to QFs, 4 losers to Prelim QFs.

Pot 2 v 2 (open draw, Prov non repeat),
4 winners to Prelim QFs, 4 losers are out.

Prelim Rd, QFs & SFs -
highest seed v lowest, 2nd high v 2nd low etc.,
re-seeding in each round.

In the initial poster's ties, I'd switch Match 4 & 5.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2566 - 26/06/2023 19:41:47    2489780

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Replying To tirawleybaron:  "I would suggest the following to remove all criticism for good.

1. Extend Sam Maguire numbers to 20 for one year
2. 5 groups of 4 (all provincial winners plus best placed league team as seeded teams)
3. Group winners into QF
4. Group 2nd place into wildcard round (get rid of prelim q finals title)
5. Only the 3 best third place teams to progress (based on results v top two in their group)
6. Any team that ships a ten point beating (or more) can't re enter the following year.

Louth an Sligo gave up last week, so shouldn't be allowed in next year"
Stupid.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6030 - 27/06/2023 01:51:22    2489829

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The commentary is negative. There are some tweaks that stand out. The GAA acknowledged that themselves."
The commentary is ridiculous. Some people are never happy unless they are complaining.,

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6030 - 27/06/2023 01:52:51    2489830

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Replying To brianb:  "Spot on. Some commentators were a bit quick to write off this format. Last weekend had some great games with something on the line for everyone.

The real stuff starts now - I still think its a bit rushed; but all teams have got more games and by the teams are well seeded for competitive games though to the final. Theres no lucky draw route through to the 1/4 finals any more."
Three small tweaks I'd like to see -

1) '3 wild cards' (best records from across all 4 groups) in lieu of 4 automatic 3rd-placed teams. So, 5 to QFs, 5 out and 3 Prelim QF Rd ties.

2) KO seeding based on a combined 16-team table (high v low seed, with re-seeding each round, subject to non repeat ties).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2566 - 01/07/2023 14:23:32    2491027

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Replying To omahant:  "Three small tweaks I'd like to see -

1) '3 wild cards' (best records from across all 4 groups) in lieu of 4 automatic 3rd-placed teams. So, 5 to QFs, 5 out and 3 Prelim QF Rd ties.

2) KO seeding based on a combined 16-team table (high v low seed, with re-seeding each round, subject to non repeat ties)."
This year's format will be hard to shake off. Just a few tweaks here and there. There needs to be a rest weekend after league finals. The provincial championship draws should be seeded on the league. Provincial runners-up should be seeded on league placing.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7806 - 01/07/2023 14:41:00    2491034

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Replying To legendzxix:  "This year's format will be hard to shake off. Just a few tweaks here and there. There needs to be a rest weekend after league finals. The provincial championship draws should be seeded on the league. Provincial runners-up should be seeded on league placing."
What small changes would you like to see?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2566 - 02/07/2023 03:12:46    2491217

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Replying To legendzxix:  "This year's format will be hard to shake off. Just a few tweaks here and there. There needs to be a rest weekend after league finals. The provincial championship draws should be seeded on the league. Provincial runners-up should be seeded on league placing."
Sorry, you have already provided them.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2566 - 02/07/2023 03:14:12    2491218

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Mayo lost to Cork, dropped into the preliminary quarter-final and beat Galway and the lost to Dublin. Mayo can only blame themselves. Tyrone and Cork also missed out on winning their groups and only had a week to prepare for the quarter-finals. That was the jeopardy of 2nd and 3rd. Giving preliminary quarter-final winners an extra week will take away from the advantage of winning the group.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7806 - 06/07/2023 10:55:36    2492602

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Mayo lost to Cork, dropped into the preliminary quarter-final and beat Galway and the lost to Dublin. Mayo can only blame themselves. Tyrone and Cork also missed out on winning their groups and only had a week to prepare for the quarter-finals. That was the jeopardy of 2nd and 3rd. Giving preliminary quarter-final winners an extra week will take away from the advantage of winning the group."
I agree. But having tired teams in the AI QFs takes from the quality of those pairings. I think having '3 wild cards' in lieu of '4 third teams' strikes a better 'jeopardy while keeping most teams involved' balance for the third group ties. Five 'best record teams' (potentially omitting a group winner) could get the byes in lieu of '4 group winners' as well.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2566 - 07/07/2023 16:57:02    2492989

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Replying To omahant:  "I agree. But having tired teams in the AI QFs takes from the quality of those pairings. I think having '3 wild cards' in lieu of '4 third teams' strikes a better 'jeopardy while keeping most teams involved' balance for the third group ties. Five 'best record teams' (potentially omitting a group winner) could get the byes in lieu of '4 group winners' as well."
It is a lot of explaining for the majority of supporters. Group winners advancing to the quarters and 2nd v 3rd playing off puts some people's heads in a spin!

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7806 - 08/07/2023 10:26:11    2493078

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Replying To legendzxix:  "It is a lot of explaining for the majority of supporters. Group winners advancing to the quarters and 2nd v 3rd playing off puts some people's heads in a spin!"
That's a sad commentary on the state of the world - the part I wouldn't want to join.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2566 - 09/07/2023 15:47:17    2493337

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Replying To omahant:  "That's a sad commentary on the state of the world - the part I wouldn't want to join."
I don't know, there's a beauty to simplicity.

A lot of thought can go into making something seem simple but effective in achieving its goal. This is principle that applies across a wide range of disciplines and has been part of the thinking of some great minds throughout human history.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4193 - 10/07/2023 11:18:54    2493525

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What's all this wild card nonsense?
Only change I'd make is to only allow Provincial winners, plus last year's Sam and Tailteann winners in automatically and then go down the League till you have 16.

There are arguments for/against giving PQF winners 2 weeks break.
In case anyone thinks 3 weeks is too long to wait for Group winners KK and LK got 4 week's break in the hurling.

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1379 - 10/07/2023 12:26:36    2493545

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I don't know, there's a beauty to simplicity.

A lot of thought can go into making something seem simple but effective in achieving its goal. This is principle that applies across a wide range of disciplines and has been part of the thinking of some great minds throughout human history."
All else being equal, I think simple is best - but to my mind, the goal should be the 'best design' that provides a fair competition. This often includes bells and whistles.

There are many examples that reflect a lack of simplicity - e.g. US NFL, Aussie AFL, 2024/25 UEFA Champions League (moving from simplicity) and the Rugby EPCR group stage (structure in recent years is probably the worst in world sport - new 4 groups of 6 is an improvement).

With the AI SFC group stage, I offered a few tweaks above to the '4 groups of 4' - with reference to 'best records' regardless of group, top 5 to QFs, next 6 to Prelim QF Rd & bottom 5 eliminated - teams seeded 1 to 11, high v low seed etc with re-seeding in each round, possibly subject to non-repeat pairings. While nobody is required to support or like it - I repeat - not being able to understand it would be a 'sad commentary on the state of the world'.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2566 - 10/07/2023 13:18:41    2493560

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Replying To omahant:  "All else being equal, I think simple is best - but to my mind, the goal should be the 'best design' that provides a fair competition. This often includes bells and whistles.

There are many examples that reflect a lack of simplicity - e.g. US NFL, Aussie AFL, 2024/25 UEFA Champions League (moving from simplicity) and the Rugby EPCR group stage (structure in recent years is probably the worst in world sport - new 4 groups of 6 is an improvement).

With the AI SFC group stage, I offered a few tweaks above to the '4 groups of 4' - with reference to 'best records' regardless of group, top 5 to QFs, next 6 to Prelim QF Rd & bottom 5 eliminated - teams seeded 1 to 11, high v low seed etc with re-seeding in each round, possibly subject to non-repeat pairings. While nobody is required to support or like it - I repeat - not being able to understand it would be a 'sad commentary on the state of the world'."
You love adding complications unnecessarily is the problem people have with your ideas.
People don't want complication they want a very easy format that can be explained very easily which isn't the case woh most of your ideas

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3494 - 10/07/2023 15:10:25    2493600

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "What's all this wild card nonsense?
Only change I'd make is to only allow Provincial winners, plus last year's Sam and Tailteann winners in automatically and then go down the League till you have 16.

There are arguments for/against giving PQF winners 2 weeks break.
In case anyone thinks 3 weeks is too long to wait for Group winners KK and LK got 4 week's break in the hurling."
3 weeks isn't long but there are other factors to consider. Round 3 was on the weekend after the hurling finals. If Round 3 is moved a week earlier, it will be on the same weekend as the hurling provincial finals.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7806 - 10/07/2023 16:08:35    2493626

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Replying To omahant:  "I agree. But having tired teams in the AI QFs takes from the quality of those pairings. I think having '3 wild cards' in lieu of '4 third teams' strikes a better 'jeopardy while keeping most teams involved' balance for the third group ties. Five 'best record teams' (potentially omitting a group winner) could get the byes in lieu of '4 group winners' as well."
There has to be a balance between giving the group winners some advantage and allowing the teams that come through the Preliminary Quarter Final (PRM) a realistic chance.

This year, there was 1 week between the final group games and the PRM with the QF played 1 week later - that meant teams like Mayo and Tyrone played 3 weeks in a row. If they had 1 week between the final group game and the PQF it would at mean that the team that got through the PRM were playing 2 weeks in a row instead of 3 weeks in a row. It still preserves an advantage to the Group winners but maybe giving some chance to the PQF winners.

They could also look at the venue - i.e home QFs to the Group winners which I would personally be more in favour of but given that would mean taking the QFs out of CP its not likely.

I have to say I hate double headers in CP, The atmosphere is almost always terrible!

Cbar (Mayo) - Posts: 308 - 10/07/2023 17:42:27    2493648

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Replying To omahant:  "All else being equal, I think simple is best - but to my mind, the goal should be the 'best design' that provides a fair competition. This often includes bells and whistles.

There are many examples that reflect a lack of simplicity - e.g. US NFL, Aussie AFL, 2024/25 UEFA Champions League (moving from simplicity) and the Rugby EPCR group stage (structure in recent years is probably the worst in world sport - new 4 groups of 6 is an improvement).

With the AI SFC group stage, I offered a few tweaks above to the '4 groups of 4' - with reference to 'best records' regardless of group, top 5 to QFs, next 6 to Prelim QF Rd & bottom 5 eliminated - teams seeded 1 to 11, high v low seed etc with re-seeding in each round, possibly subject to non-repeat pairings. While nobody is required to support or like it - I repeat - not being able to understand it would be a 'sad commentary on the state of the world'."
Rugby EPCR have come up with a better format. 6 teams play the 4 teams that are not in their regular league. The previous format wasn't good.
UEFA have made format mistakes before. For a few years they had 8 groups of 4 and then 4 groups of 4. The second group stage was a turn off. Their current plan is for one group of 36, playing 8 games or something like that. They might have to break it down into smaller groups.
Interestingly Cavan and Leitrim have something like 10 teams in one group. All teams play 4 games. That's more manageable and easy enough to follow.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7806 - 12/07/2023 18:06:00    2494013

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Replying To legendzxix:  "This year's format will be hard to shake off. Just a few tweaks here and there. There needs to be a rest weekend after league finals. The provincial championship draws should be seeded on the league. Provincial runners-up should be seeded on league placing."
That would need provincial councils to stop doing draws 6 months in advance

valley84 (Westmeath) - Posts: 1890 - 14/07/2023 10:36:09    2494281

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