National Forum

Jim Mcguinness-Right As Usual On Championship

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Replying To ForeverBlue2:  "A provincial title would be worth 100 times more to those 4 counties than playing 3 ( at least ) extra games to get knocked out and nothing to show for it only a huge bill for the county board…. Hopefully one or more of the 3 remaining teams can cause an upset but I sincerely doubt it…."
Look on the bright side for a change. I was sceptical at the start but yesterday proved this could be the way to go. County players need a bigger ratio of games for the amount of training they do. For a extre incentive I would give the Tailteann cup winners 3 home games in the round robin.

Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2260 - 19/06/2023 20:12:43    2487598

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Replying To ForeverBlue2:  "So the 4 teams everyone knew would be knocked out before all these group games were played were actually knocked out….. what a complete waste of time and money ……! Should be only 2/4 going through instead of 3/4…. I wouldn't worry about dead rubber games as most of the games were very poorly attended in any case… More exciting if it was 2 out of 4 instead of 3/4…..!!"
The weakest teams in the round robin proved to be the beaten provincial finalists (bar Armagh)

Probably begs the question as to wether that method of qualification should be removed.

I fairness to the system
15 of 16 teams had something to play for on the last day.

Westmeath could have eliminated Tyrone with the last kick of the game.

Only Dublin v Sligo and Louth v Kerry were completly one sided.
I'd wager that Louth, Westmeath and Sligo will be the better for this year's experience. Hopefully Clare can drive out with a new manager.

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1252 - 19/06/2023 21:04:05    2487618

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "How are things in the Tailteann?
Ooh err..."
What's that got to do with the point I was making…? A very childish comment….but maybe made by one…!

ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 3569 - 19/06/2023 22:48:19    2487649

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Replying To shaggykev:  "I think in general, it's been a success and just needs a little tweaking.

Perhaps only provincial champions go through as that would remove the weaker sides that get softer route.

However only issues I think they need to solve is give more rewards to champion of div1 e.g. Two home games so teams fight for the league title.

The rewards of straight through to quarters and home advantage are good carrots for group stage. Giving home advantage in quarter finals too to group winners would really make it even better.

Was surprised how poor RTE were flagging it to viewers. In the last couple of seconds Westmeath had a kick to eliminate Tyrone and Galway needed to draw to make quarter finals or face the trickier route versus a big gun from pot 3.

There was jeopardy, you just wouldn't know it listening to commentary. GAAGo lads didn't know permutations at end of Mayo v Cork either

Need to get better at promotion of it."
Good post.

If you watch the last day of a premier league season the public are made known what everything means at all times. It really adds to the tension in the moment.

I actually think the stupid rule around previous results makes it less natural to easily know who's ahead of who in the table too.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4416 - 20/06/2023 14:14:34    2487830

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The All-Ireland Championship has a history of knockout. The current format offers 3 rounds of group games and 4 rounds of knockout. GAAGO and RTÉ have been given an extra preliminary quarter-final to cater for demand. It doesn't make sense to scrap a preliminary knockout round that is likely to bring out good support at the weekend. 4 provincial grounds are getting 4 potentially great games before the Croke Park series.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8578 - 20/06/2023 16:49:55    2487893

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The current championship worked a treat.

The only changes to be considered are

1. Seeding league positions over beaten provincial finalists
2. Have an extra week gap between prelim q finals and q finals

My preference for would be to seed places 2,3 and 4 by league placings

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1252 - 22/06/2023 14:21:21    2488437

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Replying To tirawleybaron:  "The weakest teams in the round robin proved to be the beaten provincial finalists (bar Armagh)

Probably begs the question as to wether that method of qualification should be removed.

I fairness to the system
15 of 16 teams had something to play for on the last day.

Westmeath could have eliminated Tyrone with the last kick of the game.

Only Dublin v Sligo and Louth v Kerry were completly one sided.
I'd wager that Louth, Westmeath and Sligo will be the better for this year's experience. Hopefully Clare can drive out with a new manager."
On a round robin scoring differences should come before head to head.
Armagh beat Galway but Galway had a better scoring difference over the 3 games. That should count.

Breffni1969 (Cavan) - Posts: 510 - 22/06/2023 14:34:47    2488440

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Replying To tirawleybaron:  "The current championship worked a treat.

The only changes to be considered are

1. Seeding league positions over beaten provincial finalists
2. Have an extra week gap between prelim q finals and q finals

My preference for would be to seed places 2,3 and 4 by league placings"
That sounds fair. I think teams now realise how important 1st place is and it will be interesting to see if the intensity of some of the earlier round robin games will be upped a notch next year. There was a lot of talk from pundits and journalists about no jeopardy and that it was too handy for three teams to go through. But in fact it is a massive advantage to win the group and go straight through to a QF. Not only do you have one less game but now the likes of Armagh will avoid Kerry or Dublin until at least the semi.

MachaireConnacht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1000 - 22/06/2023 14:39:29    2488443

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Replying To MachaireConnacht:  "That sounds fair. I think teams now realise how important 1st place is and it will be interesting to see if the intensity of some of the earlier round robin games will be upped a notch next year. There was a lot of talk from pundits and journalists about no jeopardy and that it was too handy for three teams to go through. But in fact it is a massive advantage to win the group and go straight through to a QF. Not only do you have one less game but now the likes of Armagh will avoid Kerry or Dublin until at least the semi."
Spot on. Some commentators were a bit quick to write off this format. Last weekend had some great games with something on the line for everyone.

The real stuff starts now - I still think its a bit rushed; but all teams have got more games and by the teams are well seeded for competitive games though to the final. Theres no lucky draw route through to the 1/4 finals any more.

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 406 - 22/06/2023 17:43:39    2488500

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Replying To tirawleybaron:  "The current championship worked a treat.

The only changes to be considered are

1. Seeding league positions over beaten provincial finalists
2. Have an extra week gap between prelim q finals and q finals

My preference for would be to seed places 2,3 and 4 by league placings"
I agree on seeding 2, 3 and 4 on league placing. There should be a gap week after the league finals. Playing the final group game, preliminary round and quarter-finals on consecutive weekends is the importance of winning the group. I wouldn't be rushing into change that.
They could have played the three group rounds on consecutive however, then a week off before two weekends for preliminary and quarter-finals.
I'm not entirely convinced on neutral venues. There are mechanisms of rewarding an extra home game on rotation. Over a few years it would balance out. Basically teams without an extra game get priority in the following year.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8578 - 23/06/2023 15:38:36    2488690

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The reality is it is harder to win the league than a provincial title (maybe Ulster aside) and the league winners should probably get some sort of perk for the championship. For example Mayo were only a seed 3 team after being brilliant throughout the league.

CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 3851 - 23/06/2023 17:20:46    2488708

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Replying To legendzxix:  "I agree on seeding 2, 3 and 4 on league placing. There should be a gap week after the league finals. Playing the final group game, preliminary round and quarter-finals on consecutive weekends is the importance of winning the group. I wouldn't be rushing into change that.
They could have played the three group rounds on consecutive however, then a week off before two weekends for preliminary and quarter-finals.
I'm not entirely convinced on neutral venues. There are mechanisms of rewarding an extra home game on rotation. Over a few years it would balance out. Basically teams without an extra game get priority in the following year."
That works for Kerry and a few others, but if you are a county that may be in the All Ireland one year and Tailteann next, it does not work to mess with the neutral fixture. I think it makes more sense the way it is.

BaldyBadger (Cork) - Posts: 312 - 23/06/2023 17:49:39    2488714

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Thought I posted this already. How about this. The big names don't need all this exposure to the top teams, cos that's who they are, so you restrict the All-Ireland series to the top 6 teams in Div 1 plus the two promoted teams in Div 2, and include the Tailteann Cup winners as well as any provincial champions from outside this. This will leave you with 9+ teams. Then rank the teams as follows: provincial champions 1-4 in order of their league ranking, followed by everyone else in league order. (This year it would be 1 Galway, 2 Kerry, 3 Dublin, 4 Derry, 5 Mayo, 6 Roscommon, 7 Tyrone, 8 Monaghan, 9 Westmeath.) Have a preliminary round among the lowest ranked teams to bring the numbers down to eight, then have quarterfinals with the provincial champions kept apart. There you go. Keep the Tailteann Cup as the Div 3 & 4 teams. If you wanted to extend the race for Sam to include the other Div 2 teams plus the promoted teams from Div 3, meh, grand. Or else stick them in their own little shield competition where the winners are guaranteed Sam action the following year (as long as they don't do something crazy like get relegated).

Tacaí Liatroma (Leitrim) - Posts: 1144 - 24/06/2023 07:43:11    2488749

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Replying To legendzxix:  "I agree on seeding 2, 3 and 4 on league placing. There should be a gap week after the league finals. Playing the final group game, preliminary round and quarter-finals on consecutive weekends is the importance of winning the group. I wouldn't be rushing into change that.
They could have played the three group rounds on consecutive however, then a week off before two weekends for preliminary and quarter-finals.
I'm not entirely convinced on neutral venues. There are mechanisms of rewarding an extra home game on rotation. Over a few years it would balance out. Basically teams without an extra game get priority in the following year."
Let's just allow the competition to be played to a conclusion before we say or suggest anything. Proposing changes to a new style of championship that has only just concluded what can be described as successful group stages is madness. Seán Cavanagh eviscerated the new structure before a ball had even been kicked. Martin Breheny, Eamonn Sweeney, Pat Spillane and Seán McGoldrick did the same before the group stages were over. Commentary on football in general and championship structures specifically is ridiculously negative.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6174 - 24/06/2023 10:43:23    2488762

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Replying To BaldyBadger:  "That works for Kerry and a few others, but if you are a county that may be in the All Ireland one year and Tailteann next, it does not work to mess with the neutral fixture. I think it makes more sense the way it is."
Whether teams are in the All-Ireland or Tailteann shouldn't matter. The 16 teams who do not get an extra home game one year should be given a priority for an extra home game in the following year.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8578 - 24/06/2023 12:18:23    2488781

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Replying To Greengrass:  "Let's just allow the competition to be played to a conclusion before we say or suggest anything. Proposing changes to a new style of championship that has only just concluded what can be described as successful group stages is madness. Seán Cavanagh eviscerated the new structure before a ball had even been kicked. Martin Breheny, Eamonn Sweeney, Pat Spillane and Seán McGoldrick did the same before the group stages were over. Commentary on football in general and championship structures specifically is ridiculously negative."
The commentary is negative. There are some tweaks that stand out. The GAA acknowledged that themselves.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8578 - 24/06/2023 12:21:17    2488784

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I would suggest the following to remove all criticism for good.

1. Extend Sam Maguire numbers to 20 for one year
2. 5 groups of 4 (all provincial winners plus best placed league team as seeded teams)
3. Group winners into QF
4. Group 2nd place into wildcard round (get rid of prelim q finals title)
5. Only the 3 best third place teams to progress (based on results v top two in their group)
6. Any team that ships a ten point beating (or more) can't re enter the following year.

Louth an Sligo gave up last week, so shouldn't be allowed in next year

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1252 - 25/06/2023 09:36:26    2489013

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Replying To Greengrass:  "Let's just allow the competition to be played to a conclusion before we say or suggest anything. Proposing changes to a new style of championship that has only just concluded what can be described as successful group stages is madness. Seán Cavanagh eviscerated the new structure before a ball had even been kicked. Martin Breheny, Eamonn Sweeney, Pat Spillane and Seán McGoldrick did the same before the group stages were over. Commentary on football in general and championship structures specifically is ridiculously negative."
The commentary from journalists and pundits hasn't helped things. There was a lot of talk about three teams going through, the lack of jeoprady and prelim quarter finals. I don't know if some of the negative commentary seeped through to teams but there was a massive advantage in winning your group compared to coming second and third. Dublin went out to demolish Sligo to ensure they came first and Derry made sure they were coming top as well. Two of the three prelim games yesterday were decided by a kick of the ball and it should be the same for the massive game today. The format has worked really well, the majority of games are highly competitive with very little between teams. You will always get some unevenly matched contests, there isn't a competition in the world which doesn't. The only big defeats were for Sligo and Louth. The biggest tweak to be made is giving the prelim quarter final winners a weeks break before they go into a QF. The reward for getting out of your group in 2nd or 3rd is to play 3 weeks on the trot which isn't fair.

MachaireConnacht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1000 - 25/06/2023 10:38:28    2489035

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Replying To MachaireConnacht:  "The commentary from journalists and pundits hasn't helped things. There was a lot of talk about three teams going through, the lack of jeoprady and prelim quarter finals. I don't know if some of the negative commentary seeped through to teams but there was a massive advantage in winning your group compared to coming second and third. Dublin went out to demolish Sligo to ensure they came first and Derry made sure they were coming top as well. Two of the three prelim games yesterday were decided by a kick of the ball and it should be the same for the massive game today. The format has worked really well, the majority of games are highly competitive with very little between teams. You will always get some unevenly matched contests, there isn't a competition in the world which doesn't. The only big defeats were for Sligo and Louth. The biggest tweak to be made is giving the prelim quarter final winners a weeks break before they go into a QF. The reward for getting out of your group in 2nd or 3rd is to play 3 weeks on the trot which isn't fair."
The jeopardy of getting out of your group in 2nd or 3rd is playing for 3 weeks on the trot!

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8578 - 25/06/2023 13:19:09    2489078

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It's actually been very competitive and enjoyable, and yes the yammer will go on about how it could be done but I think the system here is really beneficial. You have teams that can see a path to improvement and not just a crash out of championship, particularly for Leinster and Munster teams where the two dominant teams in the championship play, the league next year will benefit too, and if you're in the Tailteann cup then there is a real incentive to go and win it.

jonno (Kildare) - Posts: 261 - 25/06/2023 14:13:51    2489103

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