National Forum

Jim Mcguinness-Right As Usual On Championship

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Replying To Ban:  "Another tread arguing about competition format.. Most team sports don't have this dilemma. I wonder can we learn from others?"
The GAA somewhat has tried that but have gotten it wrong.

Tournaments with groups of 4 work in a lot of sports, it's just not good for GAA where there's less chance of draws and more chance of dead rubbers.

I'm with you though. For national competitions most sports use a league phase followed by playoffs. It'd my ideal for football also.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4416 - 14/06/2023 17:22:41    2486487

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Replying To Lockjaw:  "I think that the provincials will eventually be decoupled from the All-Ireland. It will be then up to each provincial council to run their own competition and come up with some way to incentivise it (good luck in Leinster)

Once those competitions are done, the Taillteann and Sam Maguire competitions will begin, with participants and seedings based on League standings. Probably similar to what we have now. 16 teams in each competition, 4 groups of 4 etc.

People complain about the group stages being a bit meh....but that's the case in other sports too. The Champions League group stages for example are slow burning. The real action there doesn't begin until the spring when the knockput phases begin.

I think we're guilty of chasing our tails in a quest to find the optimal solution when there simply isn't one that will satisfy/please everyone."
The champions league is an interesting comparison.

Its format is going to be changed for similar reasons as our own championship. Wanting to get more games and particularly more games between the best teams.

They seem to also be going down a route that's going to lead to a lack of intensity with 10 rounds being used to reduce the field from 36 to 24.

It's an issue with adding games, it's hard to keep the competition interesting when there isn't relegation as a jeopardy for poor performance.

The GAA's new championship doesn't get enough games between the top teams either. Splitting the field into 4 is a problem.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4416 - 14/06/2023 17:29:53    2486489

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "Took 10 years at least of discussions and proposals till the current system was voted in by a huge margin.
Can we just stop wittering on about changing it after 1 year.
As for McGuinness ... the system is based on a proposal by him 7 or 8 years ago .

Just writing stuff to get a few € it seems."
The new system has seen some definite improvements. There's more games for that middle tier to use to develop.

There is still a big issue that the main championship won't see any real intensity for much of the season.

We can be on the right track but know that there's still work to do.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4416 - 14/06/2023 17:33:07    2486491

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Replying To Whammo86:  "The competition has to work for more than just Louth."
As I've already pointed out, it's working well for Wexford too. And I might suggest it's also going fairly well for your own county of Antrim.

The other poster makes a fair point too about the final round games. When it was just two out of four to go through, there were complaints about dead rubbers. Now that it's three out of four, there are complaints about lack of jeopardy. Realise I'm repeating him almost exactly, but it really is a case of damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2744 - 14/06/2023 17:36:29    2486493

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Replying To Whammo86:  "The competition has to work for more than just Louth."
The only team eliminated so far is Clare and that is because of the draw between Monaghan and Derry. Every team bar Clare has something to play for this weekend be that first, second or third place.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6174 - 14/06/2023 20:00:52    2486525

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "As I've already pointed out, it's working well for Wexford too. And I might suggest it's also going fairly well for your own county of Antrim.

The other poster makes a fair point too about the final round games. When it was just two out of four to go through, there were complaints about dead rubbers. Now that it's three out of four, there are complaints about lack of jeopardy. Realise I'm repeating him almost exactly, but it really is a case of damned if you do and damned if you don't."
Ok but there's also aspects that are clearly lacking.

McGuinness's points aren't without merit. I've said it many times the issue is the groups of 4 it doesn't work.

Not having promotion and relegation in a normal manner is very strange also.

There's a weird flow to the season.

The system has been a step in the right direction but there's more to go.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4416 - 14/06/2023 20:01:57    2486526

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Replying To ForeverBlue2:  "There is nobody going to matches in these groups don't be fooling yourself ……. 8000 at the Dublin/Kildare game 10k at Cork /Kerry … 2500 at Ros/Sligo …. These games would be jammed if they were knockout games and not glorified challenge games…. And do you honestly believe the type of football been played is in any way entertaining or enjoyable to watch…. The Championship won't start until these meaningless games are out of the way and do you know what… the usual suspects will be there at the business end of the season…. The "Super 8s" and the current system was introduced for revenue reasons only but it has backfired spectacularly on the GAA…. There were far better attendance figures at league matches than at most championship games so far so on that basis I couldn't be more right……"
23,300 at the Kerry v Mayo match. Outside of finals what league game pulled 23.000? 11,300 at Mayo v Louth. Outside of the Leinster Senior Hurling Final the only game in the Leinster Senior Hurling Championship that drew a bigger attendance than the Mayo v Louth game was the Kilkenny v Galway game. It drew 11,500. Nobody is complaining about the crowds at the Leinster Senior Hurling Championship. By the way there were 6,000 at Roscommon v Sligo. I was at group games and I watched group games on the tv. There was nothing challenge like about them. You're reading too much of the whinging emanating from the journalists and the pundits.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6174 - 14/06/2023 20:08:03    2486529

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "As I've already pointed out, it's working well for Wexford too. And I might suggest it's also going fairly well for your own county of Antrim.

The other poster makes a fair point too about the final round games. When it was just two out of four to go through, there were complaints about dead rubbers. Now that it's three out of four, there are complaints about lack of jeopardy. Realise I'm repeating him almost exactly, but it really is a case of damned if you do and damned if you don't."
It is. Damned if you do and damned if you don't. When the referee tosses the coin, one team picks choice of ends and they get on with the game.
This championship format received the support of the many stakeholders. A lot to be said for getting on with the game, with the odd minor tweaking as acknowledged by the GAA will be needed.
Who's going to win their groups this weekend?
Who's going to earn a home preliminary quarter-final?
Who's going to join Clare in being eliminated?
A lot to play for this weekend.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8578 - 14/06/2023 20:32:07    2486534

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Thinking a bit more on it. We could still do group stages in the provinces, I think the issue now is we go from knockout to group stages and back to knockout, its a mess. I think you could run group stages for the provincial titles two ulster groups top of each group in final one connaught group top 2 in final same in munster, 2 leinster groups. Top two in final.

I would then go to a last 16 knockout competition 4 provincial champs and top 4 league teams seeded with the the other 7 places going to the next ranked teams by league standing plus last year's TC winners. Quality knockout games with everything on the line
Seeded teams this year would be

Mayo galway roscommon Tyrone kerry dublin derry and monaghan
They would face armagh donegal louth cork kildare meath clare westmeath.

I would exclude 4th seed TC teams from entering their provisional championships, so this year that would mean London waterford carlow and Leitrim would have to wait for the TC which would still run on a group stage

Barrowsider (Carlow) - Posts: 1694 - 14/06/2023 21:24:35    2486542

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Replying To legendzxix:  "You make a very fair comment. 3 out of 4 is giving all teams that belief of one win. In the Tailteann we have seen that teams have valued winning the group for direct route to the quarter-finals.
People are criticising round 3 this weekend before a ball is thrown in. Mayo, Galway, Derry and Galway or Armagh will be very happy if they can take the direct route to the quarter-finals this weekend. There are other counties then who will be content with a home draw for the preliminary quarter-finals. Other teams then will be happy to get through in third."
Plenty to look forward to legend.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6174 - 15/06/2023 09:54:54    2486574

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The seeding for the All-Ireland groups is all wrong. Louth, Clare and Sligo were seeded above Mayo, Roscommon, Tyrone and Monaghan.
Clare should be seed 4. If Clare were Seed 4, Donegal v Clare would be for third place. Derry v Monaghan would be for the group win.
Kerry v Mayo should be Round 3 and possibly for the group win. Cork v Louth should be Round 3 for third place.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8578 - 15/06/2023 10:03:37    2486578

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Replying To Greengrass:  "The only team eliminated so far is Clare and that is because of the draw between Monaghan and Derry. Every team bar Clare has something to play for this weekend be that first, second or third place."
I was being a bit unfair to you. Sorry about that.

The Sam Maguire itself in isolation isn't actually that bad. The Tailteann cup in its own right has been very good also.

It's the season as a whole that is an issue. It's all over the place and I think that's where the McGuinness criticism carries most weight. I don't like his solution. I think it is great that all teams are getting more matches in the main competition and that's the direction we need to go, rather than moving back to it being knockout.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4416 - 15/06/2023 10:05:17    2486579

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Replying To Greengrass:  "The only team eliminated so far is Clare and that is because of the draw between Monaghan and Derry. Every team bar Clare has something to play for this weekend be that first, second or third place."
And everyone knows who the 4 teams are that will be dumped out… just as they did before a ball was kicked in these groups….. making it all a bit meaningless in the end….

ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 3569 - 15/06/2023 10:17:07    2486584

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Replying To Barrowsider:  "Thinking a bit more on it. We could still do group stages in the provinces, I think the issue now is we go from knockout to group stages and back to knockout, its a mess. I think you could run group stages for the provincial titles two ulster groups top of each group in final one connaught group top 2 in final same in munster, 2 leinster groups. Top two in final.

I would then go to a last 16 knockout competition 4 provincial champs and top 4 league teams seeded with the the other 7 places going to the next ranked teams by league standing plus last year's TC winners. Quality knockout games with everything on the line
Seeded teams this year would be

Mayo galway roscommon Tyrone kerry dublin derry and monaghan
They would face armagh donegal louth cork kildare meath clare westmeath.

I would exclude 4th seed TC teams from entering their provisional championships, so this year that would mean London waterford carlow and Leitrim would have to wait for the TC which would still run on a group stage"
No thanks.

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 2117 - 15/06/2023 10:18:28    2486586

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Replying To ForeverBlue2:  "And everyone knows who the 4 teams are that will be dumped out… just as they did before a ball was kicked in these groups….. making it all a bit meaningless in the end…."
Those games are not meaningless before and when they are being played. I know because I was at them. If Cavan make it to the Sam Maguire and you can bring yourself to go out and support them you will see what the lower ranked teams and their supporters take from believing they have a chance of qualifying from the group. Don't knock it until you've actually tried it.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6174 - 15/06/2023 10:36:52    2486593

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I was being a bit unfair to you. Sorry about that.

The Sam Maguire itself in isolation isn't actually that bad. The Tailteann cup in its own right has been very good also.

It's the season as a whole that is an issue. It's all over the place and I think that's where the McGuinness criticism carries most weight. I don't like his solution. I think it is great that all teams are getting more matches in the main competition and that's the direction we need to go, rather than moving back to it being knockout."
I agree with a lot of that Whammo. I like the structure. I think they've linked the three competitions well. What annoys me is the commentary from journalists and pundits. Seán Cavanagh condemned the entire structure as being meaningless before a ball was kicked in the Sam Maguire. Others like Martin Breheny, Pat Spillane, Eamon Sweeney, Seán McGoldrick amongst others have followed suit. Let the competitions be played to a finish and then we can review them. The negativity in relation to football from many in the media is at this stage farcical.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6174 - 15/06/2023 10:42:25    2486596

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Replying To Greengrass:  "I agree with a lot of that Whammo. I like the structure. I think they've linked the three competitions well. What annoys me is the commentary from journalists and pundits. Seán Cavanagh condemned the entire structure as being meaningless before a ball was kicked in the Sam Maguire. Others like Martin Breheny, Pat Spillane, Eamon Sweeney, Seán McGoldrick amongst others have followed suit. Let the competitions be played to a finish and then we can review them. The negativity in relation to football from many in the media is at this stage farcical."
If there's a simple change to be made: League and Provincial championships need to be played in parallel. The season starts to make more sense with both All Ireland qualifying competitions played together.

I still think there's weird things with the structure.

Fermanagh are going to be better placed to qualify for next year's Sam Maguire than Clare say despite doing nothing notable in this year's championship. It's not unfair but is it sensible.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4416 - 15/06/2023 11:38:57    2486617

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Replying To Whammo86:  "If there's a simple change to be made: League and Provincial championships need to be played in parallel. The season starts to make more sense with both All Ireland qualifying competitions played together.

I still think there's weird things with the structure.

Fermanagh are going to be better placed to qualify for next year's Sam Maguire than Clare say despite doing nothing notable in this year's championship. It's not unfair but is it sensible."
Totally. it should be more like the pro soccer/rugby set ups. competitions start at different times but dove tail with each other

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3735 - 15/06/2023 12:11:41    2486630

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Replying To KillingFields:  "Totally. it should be more like the pro soccer/rugby set ups. competitions start at different times but dove tail with each other"
I do think it's important that there's parity of esteem between competitions if they are to be played side by side. There roughly would be in the case of the league and provincials.

It'd be good for division 2 to 4 teams to have some of their more meaningful fixtures pushed out to April.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4416 - 15/06/2023 12:56:37    2486643

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Replying To Whammo86:  "If there's a simple change to be made: League and Provincial championships need to be played in parallel. The season starts to make more sense with both All Ireland qualifying competitions played together.

I still think there's weird things with the structure.

Fermanagh are going to be better placed to qualify for next year's Sam Maguire than Clare say despite doing nothing notable in this year's championship. It's not unfair but is it sensible."
I'd agree with that suggestion Whammo. One stipulation would need to be in place and that is that if the provincial championships and leagues are to be run in conjunction with each other county managers must have full access to all their players. The Sigerson Cup would have to be played before Christmas.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6174 - 15/06/2023 13:09:22    2486649

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