National Forum

Jim Mcguinness-Right As Usual On Championship

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Replying To supersub15:  "There is improvements to be made, and that's one of them."
Keep the provincials but with no bearing on All Ireland or Tailteann. Could stretch out league timeframe and play the provincials unseeded during league break weekends. Would give the so called weaker counties a chance to play teams of a higher standard. I think completely scrapping provincials would be throwing away money from crowds that local rivalries generate plus bragging rights. As you're saying have All Ireland and Tailteann based on league positions but maybe throw in an All Ireland playoff game between second of third from bottom of Division Two and second or third in Division Three depending on where Tailteann winners finish their next year's League.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7322 - 13/06/2023 21:11:40    2486327

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Replying To ForeverBlue2:  "Far too drawn out with too many games to get rid of just 4 teams…. Matches so far are very badly attended also which shows people are no fools and are not going to pay into glorified friendly games… Put all that together with the terrible rubbish that's been served up tells me this system won't last too long…. Big teams are just sleep walking their way into the knockout stages and most people looking at the games are fast asleep as well if the atmosphere is anything to go by….!!!"
The whole idea of the round robin in both competitions is to give every country a few games in summer to allow them develop their team so they can get better.

The past 15 years saw Dublin, Kerry, Mayo and Tyrone dominate. Partially because they had their whole team training and playing matches for 9 months when the weaker counties were getting knocked out 3 months earlier and falling behind every year.

This way the top team is only playing for 6 weeks longer and the weaker counties (like Cavan) get more games to hopefully build up a team, style of play etc to eventually get more competitive.

What's your solution - go back to lockout and throw in COVID restrictions so Cavan have a chance again?

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1099 - 13/06/2023 23:30:48    2486339

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More in McGuinness line to help his own county than lecturing everyone. He is only interested in feathering his nest

Overthebar53 (Carlow) - Posts: 199 - 14/06/2023 01:06:24    2486341

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Replying To ForeverBlue2:  "Far too drawn out with too many games to get rid of just 4 teams…. Matches so far are very badly attended also which shows people are no fools and are not going to pay into glorified friendly games… Put all that together with the terrible rubbish that's been served up tells me this system won't last too long…. Big teams are just sleep walking their way into the knockout stages and most people looking at the games are fast asleep as well if the atmosphere is anything to go by….!!!"
B******t post.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6030 - 14/06/2023 02:27:07    2486343

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Replying To tirawleybaron:  "The whole idea of the round robin in both competitions is to give every country a few games in summer to allow them develop their team so they can get better.

The past 15 years saw Dublin, Kerry, Mayo and Tyrone dominate. Partially because they had their whole team training and playing matches for 9 months when the weaker counties were getting knocked out 3 months earlier and falling behind every year.

This way the top team is only playing for 6 weeks longer and the weaker counties (like Cavan) get more games to hopefully build up a team, style of play etc to eventually get more competitive.

What's your solution - go back to lockout and throw in COVID restrictions so Cavan have a chance again?"
Play Provincials and NFL in the same timeframe. Up to mid May.(14/5 this year)
You can set aside 4 weekends for Provincial games amid the 7 NFL weekends.
That would eradicate the 5/6/7 week rests sone teams got this year.
Play the 3 Round Robin games over 4 weekends (28/5, 4/6, 18/6) with top 2 getting to Qtr Finals.>
Means every team in the Quarters have a 2 week break.

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1379 - 14/06/2023 10:12:51    2486363

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Replying To Greengrass:  "B******t post."
The truth hurts it seems…

ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 1885 - 14/06/2023 10:22:41    2486367

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Replying To tirawleybaron:  "The whole idea of the round robin in both competitions is to give every country a few games in summer to allow them develop their team so they can get better.

The past 15 years saw Dublin, Kerry, Mayo and Tyrone dominate. Partially because they had their whole team training and playing matches for 9 months when the weaker counties were getting knocked out 3 months earlier and falling behind every year.

This way the top team is only playing for 6 weeks longer and the weaker counties (like Cavan) get more games to hopefully build up a team, style of play etc to eventually get more competitive.

What's your solution - go back to lockout and throw in COVID restrictions so Cavan have a chance again?"
Rubbish…. It hasn't improved any of the weaker teams… It only makes the best teams stronger ( might not be the case with Mayo who flump it every year ) and is only there to try and increase revenue… no other reason

ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 1885 - 14/06/2023 10:27:06    2486371

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Replying To ForeverBlue2:  "Rubbish…. It hasn't improved any of the weaker teams… It only makes the best teams stronger ( might not be the case with Mayo who flump it every year ) and is only there to try and increase revenue… no other reason"
Very quick to judge - lets wait and see what happens in the next few weeks once the knock outs start.

It will be 2 / 3 years before we'll see if it improves any of the weaker teams. One thing for sure - compared to the super 8's where only the best teams got extra games - now all teams get these extra games. That's got to be a big plus.

brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 278 - 14/06/2023 10:53:12    2486379

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The criticism of 3 out of 4 is understandable. 3 out of 5 like the Munster hurling championship would be more palatable.
The championship could go with a 20:12 split. All-Ireland in 4 groups of 5. Tailteann in 2 groups of 6. The Allianz Football League would have to have divisions of 6 or 5. The league would lose 2 rounds but the championship gain extra rounds.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7806 - 14/06/2023 11:22:49    2486391

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I think that the provincials will eventually be decoupled from the All-Ireland. It will be then up to each provincial council to run their own competition and come up with some way to incentivise it (good luck in Leinster)

Once those competitions are done, the Taillteann and Sam Maguire competitions will begin, with participants and seedings based on League standings. Probably similar to what we have now. 16 teams in each competition, 4 groups of 4 etc.

People complain about the group stages being a bit meh....but that's the case in other sports too. The Champions League group stages for example are slow burning. The real action there doesn't begin until the spring when the knockput phases begin.

I think we're guilty of chasing our tails in a quest to find the optimal solution when there simply isn't one that will satisfy/please everyone.

Lockjaw (Donegal) - Posts: 9103 - 14/06/2023 11:39:25    2486400

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Replying To Lockjaw:  "I think that the provincials will eventually be decoupled from the All-Ireland. It will be then up to each provincial council to run their own competition and come up with some way to incentivise it (good luck in Leinster)

Once those competitions are done, the Taillteann and Sam Maguire competitions will begin, with participants and seedings based on League standings. Probably similar to what we have now. 16 teams in each competition, 4 groups of 4 etc.

People complain about the group stages being a bit meh....but that's the case in other sports too. The Champions League group stages for example are slow burning. The real action there doesn't begin until the spring when the knockput phases begin.

I think we're guilty of chasing our tails in a quest to find the optimal solution when there simply isn't one that will satisfy/please everyone."
When the provincials are decoupled, the league before championship will be the next under scrutiny. The league and championship might have to merge. To go from league to group phase will seem unnecessary.
The provincial championships as a round robin might become fashionable before the All-Ireland in 2 groups of 8.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7806 - 14/06/2023 12:19:15    2486413

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Replying To legendzxix:  "When the provincials are decoupled, the league before championship will be the next under scrutiny. The league and championship might have to merge. To go from league to group phase will seem unnecessary.
The provincial championships as a round robin might become fashionable before the All-Ireland in 2 groups of 8."
I wonder could the secondary competition look some similar to the qualifiers era championship and separate from the All Ireland.

Knockout Provincials leading to New Ireland cup semi finals.

Teams not winning their province go into a back door competition that plays to a winner instead of merging back into the front door.

Teams going out in rounds 1 or 2 and not in the top tier championship can play a Tommy Murphy Cup type competition.

These things weren't really suitable for the main championship but could make sense for the warm up competitions for getting teams games and maybe having crack at playing better teams.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4193 - 14/06/2023 14:26:53    2486437

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I wonder could the secondary competition look some similar to the qualifiers era championship and separate from the All Ireland.

Knockout Provincials leading to New Ireland cup semi finals.

Teams not winning their province go into a back door competition that plays to a winner instead of merging back into the front door.

Teams going out in rounds 1 or 2 and not in the top tier championship can play a Tommy Murphy Cup type competition.

These things weren't really suitable for the main championship but could make sense for the warm up competitions for getting teams games and maybe having crack at playing better teams."
A lot of changes. To stick or twist? To be fair to the GAA with the current format, all teams are guaranteed 3 group games. There are 4 knockout rounds after. Some of the narrative around the group stage is unfair. If Kerry lose on Sunday, Kerry are out!
The 4 preliminary quarter-finals in the Tailteann at the weekend were an endorsement for the current structure. All teams had been well road tested after 3 group games. There is an argument that the knockout rounds will be for the better.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7806 - 14/06/2023 14:50:41    2486449

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Replying To ForeverBlue2:  "The truth hurts it seems…"
I was at group games. You couldn't have been more wrong.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6030 - 14/06/2023 15:10:13    2486455

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The criticism of 3 out of 4 is understandable. 3 out of 5 like the Munster hurling championship would be more palatable.
The championship could go with a 20:12 split. All-Ireland in 4 groups of 5. Tailteann in 2 groups of 6. The Allianz Football League would have to have divisions of 6 or 5. The league would lose 2 rounds but the championship gain extra rounds."
Leave the league alone. The hurling league has groups of six and it is dead as a competition. It's a glorified Walsh Cup. People are criticising 3 out of 4 qualifying. There is decreased jeopardy but there is also increased opportunity for the weaker counties. Being from Louth and given the draw we got we would have had no hope of qualifying out of that group had it been stipulated that only 2 teams would qualify. I feel the fact that there was genuine belief that we could qualify helped us to be highly competitive in the group. When the Super 8s were being played journalists and pundits whinged about "dead rubbers." The GAA put a structure in place to address the issue of dead rubbers and now these same journalists and pundits are whinging about "lack of jeopardy." The truth is that these people are never happy unless they're whinging. The GAA is damned if they do and damned if they don't.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6030 - 14/06/2023 15:30:55    2486460

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Replying To Greengrass:  "Leave the league alone. The hurling league has groups of six and it is dead as a competition. It's a glorified Walsh Cup. People are criticising 3 out of 4 qualifying. There is decreased jeopardy but there is also increased opportunity for the weaker counties. Being from Louth and given the draw we got we would have had no hope of qualifying out of that group had it been stipulated that only 2 teams would qualify. I feel the fact that there was genuine belief that we could qualify helped us to be highly competitive in the group. When the Super 8s were being played journalists and pundits whinged about "dead rubbers." The GAA put a structure in place to address the issue of dead rubbers and now these same journalists and pundits are whinging about "lack of jeopardy." The truth is that these people are never happy unless they're whinging. The GAA is damned if they do and damned if they don't."
Took 10 years at least of discussions and proposals till the current system was voted in by a huge margin.
Can we just stop wittering on about changing it after 1 year.
As for McGuinness ... the system is based on a proposal by him 7 or 8 years ago .

Just writing stuff to get a few € it seems.

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1379 - 14/06/2023 16:28:09    2486473

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Another tread arguing about competition format.. Most team sports don't have this dilemma. I wonder can we learn from others?

Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1413 - 14/06/2023 16:29:41    2486474

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Replying To Greengrass:  "Leave the league alone. The hurling league has groups of six and it is dead as a competition. It's a glorified Walsh Cup. People are criticising 3 out of 4 qualifying. There is decreased jeopardy but there is also increased opportunity for the weaker counties. Being from Louth and given the draw we got we would have had no hope of qualifying out of that group had it been stipulated that only 2 teams would qualify. I feel the fact that there was genuine belief that we could qualify helped us to be highly competitive in the group. When the Super 8s were being played journalists and pundits whinged about "dead rubbers." The GAA put a structure in place to address the issue of dead rubbers and now these same journalists and pundits are whinging about "lack of jeopardy." The truth is that these people are never happy unless they're whinging. The GAA is damned if they do and damned if they don't."
The competition has to work for more than just Louth.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4193 - 14/06/2023 16:34:13    2486476

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Replying To Greengrass:  "I was at group games. You couldn't have been more wrong."
There is nobody going to matches in these groups don't be fooling yourself ……. 8000 at the Dublin/Kildare game 10k at Cork /Kerry … 2500 at Ros/Sligo …. These games would be jammed if they were knockout games and not glorified challenge games…. And do you honestly believe the type of football been played is in any way entertaining or enjoyable to watch…. The Championship won't start until these meaningless games are out of the way and do you know what… the usual suspects will be there at the business end of the season…. The "Super 8s" and the current system was introduced for revenue reasons only but it has backfired spectacularly on the GAA…. There were far better attendance figures at league matches than at most championship games so far so on that basis I couldn't be more right……

ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 1885 - 14/06/2023 17:11:57    2486485

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Replying To Greengrass:  "Leave the league alone. The hurling league has groups of six and it is dead as a competition. It's a glorified Walsh Cup. People are criticising 3 out of 4 qualifying. There is decreased jeopardy but there is also increased opportunity for the weaker counties. Being from Louth and given the draw we got we would have had no hope of qualifying out of that group had it been stipulated that only 2 teams would qualify. I feel the fact that there was genuine belief that we could qualify helped us to be highly competitive in the group. When the Super 8s were being played journalists and pundits whinged about "dead rubbers." The GAA put a structure in place to address the issue of dead rubbers and now these same journalists and pundits are whinging about "lack of jeopardy." The truth is that these people are never happy unless they're whinging. The GAA is damned if they do and damned if they don't."
You make a very fair comment. 3 out of 4 is giving all teams that belief of one win. In the Tailteann we have seen that teams have valued winning the group for direct route to the quarter-finals.
People are criticising round 3 this weekend before a ball is thrown in. Mayo, Galway, Derry and Galway or Armagh will be very happy if they can take the direct route to the quarter-finals this weekend. There are other counties then who will be content with a home draw for the preliminary quarter-finals. Other teams then will be happy to get through in third.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7806 - 14/06/2023 17:15:16    2486486

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