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Replying To arock: "Imagine getting a free shot for simply catching the ball, the mark should always be an indirect free. In terms of officiating, there are 7 officials, 3 are qualified refs, 4 dont have to be. 2 of the 3 have far less involvement in the game than the umpires.
Playing keep ball is the real problem unless you limit the time you can be in possesion I cannot see how you can break this chokehold." You create a contest for possession. If a lad on his own 45 was under pressure, wasn't allowed run 8 steps to get free, wasn't allowed to throw the ball, what would he do?
Eddie the Exile (Monaghan) - Posts: 1121 - 08/06/2023 19:43:25
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Replying To Eddie the Exile: "Agree fully that creating a legitimate contest for possession has to be part of the solution here.
Teams mass their players because there is simply no defensive alternative any more. If a proper contest for possession were created/allowed, then there would be less incentive to keep so many players away from the scoring end of the field. A huge part of this is the very lenient interpretation of steps rule on attacking players ( you can often travel 20 yards on one hop if shaping to shoot). Also, throwing the ball is bloody endemic. Under pressure? Throw it out the back to a team-mate. The 2 hops rule often overlooked too. Any ref that made an attempt to apply these rules would get some slating I'd wager.
Take the case in point of the Roscommon keep-ball incident (not their fault by the way, Dublin simply didn't engage). Roscommon clearly fouled the ball in that spell when Connor Carroll threw the ball over his shoulder under pressure. The passage of play should really have ended with a 25m free in to Dublin. We would be having a different discussion this week if so, about the dangers of messing with the ball in defence! We also saw a high scoring match between Clare and Monaghan at the weekend, which was due in no small part to a referee who blew the whistle at the slightest hint of a tackle. No wonder the teams kicked nearly 20 points each.
I think there is a fundamental lack of understanding of this problem, and it is not addressed by some of the mooted changes to rules. Suggestions like 13-a-side will make the situation worse because there will be even more space to play keep-ball in. As for a shot clock, we do not want football to become a turns-based game like rugby league or basketball, where possession is turned over, not competed for.
In all potential changes, there must also be a recognition of the workload on referees. Probably >80% of all matches played in a given year are covered by a lone referee acting with the help of some at-least partially partisan attendees. The rules need to be implementable, need to reward skill with the ball and without, and should create a legitimate contest for the ball. I wouldn't go adding too many rules without first removing a few. Tightening some existing rules might be a more appropriate response:
My changes would be:
1. Abolish the forward mark
2. Abolish the hand-passed point, and hand-passed goal from ball put in flight from a handpass
3. Over-carrying: Implement 5 steps max before solo/hop and an indirect free as penalty. (indirect free kicks take the pressure off referees in giving technical frees against players emerging from defence). Clarify that holding ball while static (>3 seconds) is over-carrying also
4. Throw ball defined as simultaneous movement of holding hand/ no clear striking action- indirect free as penalty
5. Deliberately dropping the ball when tackled is treated as a throw- indirect free kick
6. Player going to ground in possession (one knee on the ground) must release ball immediately otherwise indirect free kick. Players going to ground to gather possession must be afforded opportunity to regain standing position, but can be challenged for the ball by more than one opposing player once they do so
7. If the ball is brought back over their own '45 line by a team in possession, then the ball cannot be hand-passed until it has crossed the '45 again (this can be managed by referees similar to the forward mark, but will replace the forward mark in the workload as such). Teams that turn over possession inside their own 45 can advance the ball by hand-passing as per rules
8. A player in receipt of a kick out inside their own 45 may not return the ball directly to the goalkeeper and must kick the ball as a first offload/pass
9. 2 points for a point scored from outside 45m" I don't think there's are perfect but it's much more on top of what the issue is and ways to fix it.
The 2 points from outside the 45 is interesting too, ways of stretching the scoring zone are as important as encouraging competition for the ball.
I like also the removal of some of the less impactful rules from recent years.
I think the kick out is over policed and short kicks can actually make the game more interesting. How do teams press the short kick, if they do press it do they leave gaps behind. It's funny by removing the short kick outs it actually does make it easier to just put men behind the ball. Yes you get that initial contest for possession but afterwards I feel like the team out of possession just can easily transition to defensive mode again. The midfield mark also reduces some of the messiness that's needed to want teams to want to compete for the ball. Honestly I think some of the recent rule changes were badly thought out, reactionary and actually didn't try to grasp why the game had moved in the direction it had and just wants to bring it back to the way it was. That doesn't work because once people know that a certain way of playing is ineffective you can't get them to unlearn that.
Honestly though, some of the football from the past is way way worse than the current hand passing issues. People talk about the "skill of long kicking" in reality there was a lot of ball given away needlessly in those days. I don't know why those unforced errors, poor play is so attractive to people.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 09/06/2023 10:17:35
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Replying To Whammo86: "I don't think there's are perfect but it's much more on top of what the issue is and ways to fix it.
The 2 points from outside the 45 is interesting too, ways of stretching the scoring zone are as important as encouraging competition for the ball.
I like also the removal of some of the less impactful rules from recent years.
I think the kick out is over policed and short kicks can actually make the game more interesting. How do teams press the short kick, if they do press it do they leave gaps behind. It's funny by removing the short kick outs it actually does make it easier to just put men behind the ball. Yes you get that initial contest for possession but afterwards I feel like the team out of possession just can easily transition to defensive mode again. The midfield mark also reduces some of the messiness that's needed to want teams to want to compete for the ball. Honestly I think some of the recent rule changes were badly thought out, reactionary and actually didn't try to grasp why the game had moved in the direction it had and just wants to bring it back to the way it was. That doesn't work because once people know that a certain way of playing is ineffective you can't get them to unlearn that.
Honestly though, some of the football from the past is way way worse than the current hand passing issues. People talk about the "skill of long kicking" in reality there was a lot of ball given away needlessly in those days. I don't know why those unforced errors, poor play is so attractive to people." Kerry Golden years football was CAT MELODIAN.
They won't the five in a row because they Mick O Dwyer invented the novel idea that getting fit and passing the ball to a super fit Pat Spillane via the handpass was better than just booting the ball down the field and hoping for the best.
When I was a young buck learning to play football at full back (1987), you were told to boot the ball as far as you could and it was up to your team mates to go and win it (as long as you kicked it in his general direction).
By 1998, (when Gary Fahy went through the all Ireland final without kicking the ball at all) you would be "riding the pine" if you kicked an aimless ball out the field.
We now have gone so far as a full backs first pass of choice is a handpass to his own goal keeper running up the filed trying to be a hero
tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1197 - 10/06/2023 07:04:15
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Replying To Whammo86: "I don't think there's are perfect but it's much more on top of what the issue is and ways to fix it.
The 2 points from outside the 45 is interesting too, ways of stretching the scoring zone are as important as encouraging competition for the ball.
I like also the removal of some of the less impactful rules from recent years.
I think the kick out is over policed and short kicks can actually make the game more interesting. How do teams press the short kick, if they do press it do they leave gaps behind. It's funny by removing the short kick outs it actually does make it easier to just put men behind the ball. Yes you get that initial contest for possession but afterwards I feel like the team out of possession just can easily transition to defensive mode again. The midfield mark also reduces some of the messiness that's needed to want teams to want to compete for the ball. Honestly I think some of the recent rule changes were badly thought out, reactionary and actually didn't try to grasp why the game had moved in the direction it had and just wants to bring it back to the way it was. That doesn't work because once people know that a certain way of playing is ineffective you can't get them to unlearn that.
Honestly though, some of the football from the past is way way worse than the current hand passing issues. People talk about the "skill of long kicking" in reality there was a lot of ball given away needlessly in those days. I don't know why those unforced errors, poor play is so attractive to people." Good points on the recent rule changes.
The marks ideally would be contested possessions though in reality they're nearly always uncontested - especially the forward mark.
I like the no back court style rule. It could lead to a more open game as the incentive would be there to push up.
brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 356 - 12/06/2023 14:26:42
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Replying To Eddie the Exile: "Agree fully that creating a legitimate contest for possession has to be part of the solution here.
Teams mass their players because there is simply no defensive alternative any more. If a proper contest for possession were created/allowed, then there would be less incentive to keep so many players away from the scoring end of the field. A huge part of this is the very lenient interpretation of steps rule on attacking players ( you can often travel 20 yards on one hop if shaping to shoot). Also, throwing the ball is bloody endemic. Under pressure? Throw it out the back to a team-mate. The 2 hops rule often overlooked too. Any ref that made an attempt to apply these rules would get some slating I'd wager.
Take the case in point of the Roscommon keep-ball incident (not their fault by the way, Dublin simply didn't engage). Roscommon clearly fouled the ball in that spell when Connor Carroll threw the ball over his shoulder under pressure. The passage of play should really have ended with a 25m free in to Dublin. We would be having a different discussion this week if so, about the dangers of messing with the ball in defence! We also saw a high scoring match between Clare and Monaghan at the weekend, which was due in no small part to a referee who blew the whistle at the slightest hint of a tackle. No wonder the teams kicked nearly 20 points each.
I think there is a fundamental lack of understanding of this problem, and it is not addressed by some of the mooted changes to rules. Suggestions like 13-a-side will make the situation worse because there will be even more space to play keep-ball in. As for a shot clock, we do not want football to become a turns-based game like rugby league or basketball, where possession is turned over, not competed for.
In all potential changes, there must also be a recognition of the workload on referees. Probably >80% of all matches played in a given year are covered by a lone referee acting with the help of some at-least partially partisan attendees. The rules need to be implementable, need to reward skill with the ball and without, and should create a legitimate contest for the ball. I wouldn't go adding too many rules without first removing a few. Tightening some existing rules might be a more appropriate response:
My changes would be:
1. Abolish the forward mark
2. Abolish the hand-passed point, and hand-passed goal from ball put in flight from a handpass
3. Over-carrying: Implement 5 steps max before solo/hop and an indirect free as penalty. (indirect free kicks take the pressure off referees in giving technical frees against players emerging from defence). Clarify that holding ball while static (>3 seconds) is over-carrying also
4. Throw ball defined as simultaneous movement of holding hand/ no clear striking action- indirect free as penalty
5. Deliberately dropping the ball when tackled is treated as a throw- indirect free kick
6. Player going to ground in possession (one knee on the ground) must release ball immediately otherwise indirect free kick. Players going to ground to gather possession must be afforded opportunity to regain standing position, but can be challenged for the ball by more than one opposing player once they do so
7. If the ball is brought back over their own '45 line by a team in possession, then the ball cannot be hand-passed until it has crossed the '45 again (this can be managed by referees similar to the forward mark, but will replace the forward mark in the workload as such). Teams that turn over possession inside their own 45 can advance the ball by hand-passing as per rules
8. A player in receipt of a kick out inside their own 45 may not return the ball directly to the goalkeeper and must kick the ball as a first offload/pass
9. 2 points for a point scored from outside 45m" Regarding your 5. Deliberately dropping the ball when tackled is treated as a throw- indirect free kick. Wouldn't it make life an awful lot easier from an all-round point of view? Referees don't have to worry about silly technical errors like overcarrying, opponents of the (former) ball carrier can now contest the ball on the ground and hack it away from there, and the guy himself no longer has to worry about hands and slaps everywhere.
Tacaí Liatroma (Leitrim) - Posts: 1126 - 12/06/2023 15:43:10
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Replying To brianb: "Good points on the recent rule changes.
The marks ideally would be contested possessions though in reality they're nearly always uncontested - especially the forward mark.
I like the no back court style rule. It could lead to a more open game as the incentive would be there to push up." I'd be interested in it not just being a halfway line rule. You can't play the ball back behind a 2nd line. If you go past the 45 you can't bring it back behind the 20, go beyond the attacking 45 the attacking team can't play it back out past the 65 in that possession.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 12/06/2023 16:33:42
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I'd like to see the game of Gaelic football to have goal posts similar to the compromised rules version of Aussie rules. Scoring as follows:
6 for a goal under the crossbar
3 for a point over the crossbar
1 for a behind
I think it would encourage teams to get the ball forward much quicker and would also lead to more shooting at goal.
slayer (Limerick) - Posts: 6480 - 12/06/2023 16:38:26
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Replying To Whammo86: "I'd be interested in it not just being a halfway line rule. You can't play the ball back behind a 2nd line. If you go past the 45 you can't bring it back behind the 20, go beyond the attacking 45 the attacking team can't play it back out past the 65 in that possession." You'd need AI to keep track of that? Mmmmmoooooooo!!!!!
Pope_Benedict (Galway) - Posts: 3876 - 12/06/2023 16:44:00
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Replying To aidan64: "The game of football is a horrible game to watch now. This business of passing the ball over and back and kicking the ball backwards etc is ruining the game
All teams are at it now . Almost turned off the Kerry v Cork game over the weekend as I couldnt take it.
Something has to be done to stop this
I dont know what that is but the game is becoming hard to watch
What about a rule of that once you cross the half way line you cannot pass it back over the half way line ? or the opposition 65 yard line?
No players to be inside the 20m line for a kick out? Could prevent the short kick which starts it all off
Get rid of the mark? This might not change anything but should be got rid of anyway.
Maybe introduce a shot clock one you pass the half way line e.g 2 minutes?
These suggestions are a bit crazy but things cant be left as they are" One rule I would bring in is no handpass back to the keeper at any stage. Footpass only. This would soon fix the messing about .Teams would then push up. One footpass going astray and it's in the back of the net.
Breffni1969 (Cavan) - Posts: 510 - 12/06/2023 16:47:18
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Replying To slayer: "I'd like to see the game of Gaelic football to have goal posts similar to the compromised rules version of Aussie rules. Scoring as follows:
6 for a goal under the crossbar
3 for a point over the crossbar
1 for a behind
I think it would encourage teams to get the ball forward much quicker and would also lead to more shooting at goal." What a load of nonsense…. It's not the lay out of the goal posts that's the problem…. Have we not copied enough from the Aussie rules at this stage …!! Negative lazy coaching is the game's biggest problem.
ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 3031 - 12/06/2023 17:12:56
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Replying To Pope_Benedict: "You'd need AI to keep track of that? Mmmmmoooooooo!!!!!" You think, I don't think it'd be that bad. Would be interesting to see it trialled.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 12/06/2023 17:24:43
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Replying To ForeverBlue2: "What a load of nonsense…. It's not the lay out of the goal posts that's the problem…. Have we not copied enough from the Aussie rules at this stage …!! Negative lazy coaching is the game's biggest problem." Foreverblue2 constant negative comments is the problem is seems !
dublin5555 (Cork) - Posts: 2 - 12/06/2023 17:51:50
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Replying To slayer: "I'd like to see the game of Gaelic football to have goal posts similar to the compromised rules version of Aussie rules. Scoring as follows:
6 for a goal under the crossbar
3 for a point over the crossbar
1 for a behind
I think it would encourage teams to get the ball forward much quicker and would also lead to more shooting at goal." Side or point posts were abolished back in the 1890s.
Also a goal (6) is only worth 2 (3) points in your suggestion.
Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1966 - 12/06/2023 17:53:54
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Replying To ForeverBlue2: "What a load of nonsense…. It's not the lay out of the goal posts that's the problem…. Have we not copied enough from the Aussie rules at this stage …!! Negative lazy coaching is the game's biggest problem." Did you every play it doesnt appear that you have, going on the comments. Maybe you could try some coaching seem to be an expert on all things GAA
Corkfan55 (Dublin) - Posts: 2 - 12/06/2023 19:11:17
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this forum also needs to see changes made
update it to this century please.
allow better use of images, links, multi quoting, private messaging. a better ability to search posts more sub forums.
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3674 - 12/06/2023 20:23:46
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With everyone seeking changes, changes need to be made to reward the skills that we want to see used the most.
High fielding (Mark)
Man to man defending (ban zonal defence and third man tackles)
Long kick outs (mark)
Contest for possession (limit the handpass)
One v one scoring opportunities (ban zonal defence)
Long rang point scoring (two points for scores outside a 45m arc)
High press defending (DO NOT BAN THE SHORT KICKOUT)
tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1197 - 12/06/2023 21:48:08
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Replying To ForeverBlue2: "What a load of nonsense…. It's not the lay out of the goal posts that's the problem…. Have we not copied enough from the Aussie rules at this stage …!! Negative lazy coaching is the game's biggest problem." It appears you seem to have some agenda/grudge against certain players, singling them out for the whole team not performing. It is fairly obvious from all your posts, there is some agenda
Corkfan55 (Dublin) - Posts: 2 - 13/06/2023 09:44:54
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Replying To ForeverBlue2: "What a load of nonsense…. It's not the lay out of the goal posts that's the problem…. Have we not copied enough from the Aussie rules at this stage …!! Negative lazy coaching is the game's biggest problem." Don't really get your comments, don't make sense to me. Please starting posting quality comments here to make this a good forum ,which is some way interesting !
parkbench (Longford) - Posts: 4 - 13/06/2023 10:20:13
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With regards gaelic football rule changes, I think the 'greatest impact for the lowest tinkering' is the way to go. If limited to two changes, I would propose to trial the following:
1) Between the two 45s, a player from the team in possession is required to either: 1) receive a "two-line kick pass" - two of four consecutive lines, including both 45s and both 65s - or 2) execute one instead (both not required sequentially).
2) Following a series of passes, the team in possession is required to get the ball across the attacking 45 in "no more than 60-second intervals" and not intentionally play it back again (violation results in a free to the opposition at 'their' defensive 45).
I would leave everything else as is - short kick outs, unlimited handpasses, back passes to the goalkeeper etc.
Well - would this improve the game?
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2899 - 10/10/2023 14:33:22
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Very difficult to come up with rules that either a) are too complicated to implement consistently or b) will cause as many problems as it solves .
For example enforcing teams to move quickly into the opposition zone and stay there will only encourage the packed defense strategy.
So lets look at some simple changes that have worked and try to build on them.
The keeper not being able to receive a return kick out was a small simple change that has improved things ( marginally but still an improvement).
Can we build on this? I'm not sure but I do know that the fly goalkeeper has disincentivised pushing up. Why? Because if you push up all 6 forward on 6 backs inside opposition half you are still 6 facing 7 and the 7 should be able to work the ball upfield where there is more space than most teams currently allow.
Now I love the idea of fly goalkeepers. It adds to the excitement , it also encourages more lads to consider playing in this position which sometimes is a problem at under age. But it does come at a price as the outlined above.
Maybe the suggestion of a maximum no of consecutive passes or shot clock inside your own 45 would give some incentive for chasing. Or maybe no player can receive a pass inside their own 45 from a player who he has just passed the ball to.
Again whatever we do , I recommend small simple tweaks rather than drastic complicated ones. The game is not so bad as it is , but it could be better.
anotheralias (Galway) - Posts: 955 - 10/10/2023 15:22:20
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