National Forum

Provincial Titles Are No Longer Relevant

(Oldest Posts First) - Go To The Latest Post


Replying To legendzxix:  "Mayo are fully deserving winners today. It highlights a flaw though that they are Seed 3. Louth, Clare and Sligo are false Seeds 2s. Mayo was a tough first game for any provincial winner. If Mayo were Seed 2, they would be an opponent to for a Seed 1 to play in Game 3."
Your logic is completely flawed.
The current system is design to reward provincial results.
Kerry won their province and we're rewarded with a home match against the strongest team in their group.
Would having Mayo at a neutral venue have been better?

Mayo lost in the first round and got the hardest draw possible - away to a provincial winner.

It just happened that Mayo designed their season so the six weeks off was a pre season to their shot at an all ireland and their ignored the distraction of the provincial title.
Mayo no longer care about Connacht titles, it's all about Sam. Yesterday was their first game on this year's attempt at it.

It will be an interesting two months

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1382 - 21/05/2023 09:23:07    2479879

Link

Replying To GreenandRed:  "Hindsight analysis. Any team in the round robin can beat another team. That's sport. You're obsessed with getting the 'best' seeded teams through based on last years league positions. You win, you draw, you lose, you learn and hopefully imprive for the next game. Your seeding and how it helped you get to the stage in a competition means zero if you don't live up to the seeding on the day."
"Provincial Titles Are No Longer Relevant". Provincial titles are no longer relevant when league winners like Mayo are the Seed 3 opponent. Any team can beat another and fair play to Mayo! It is a flaw that league winners like Mayo were the Seed 3 opponent for any provincial winner.

Fairer seeding under the current new format:
Seed 1: Galway, Kerry, Dublin and Derry.
Seed 2: Mayo, Roscommon, Tyrone and Monaghan. Seed 3: Armagh, Donegal, Louth and Cork.
Seed 4: Kildare, Clare, Westmeath and Sligo.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8779 - 21/05/2023 09:50:07    2479890

Link

Replying To festinog:  "Roscommon, who beat Mayo, should have been in the same seed as Mayo, because Mayo beat ye're boys today.

Mayo are a mighty team all right. You just can't blame Connacht and if we have more than two teams who can play good football."
Mayo and Roscommon are natural Seed 2s this year after a strong league but missing out on the Connacht title. Could be a Galway v Mayo final. Dublin the only real threat to that prospect.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8779 - 21/05/2023 09:52:19    2479891

Link

Replying To sam1884:  "I think the system is probably fair. Mayo didn't have a game for six weeks yet Kerry were winning games in a provincial championship they've said isn't easy for years. It's fair to ask why Kerry were not up to speed or how a different system would of helped them!

Kerry will adapt, they always do but my view is they're not used to tough championship games in May and got a shock yesterday. It's been like this for years amongst their competitors, for this reason alone the whole system is much fairer."
Mayo gave Kerry a good lesson. No complaints. Louth, Clare and Sligo being Seed 2 ahead of Mayo, Roscommon, Tyrone and Monaghan is a flaw. The GAA have fully acknowledged that their are flaws that will have to be ironed out.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8779 - 21/05/2023 09:54:41    2479893

Link

Replying To sam1884:  "I think the system is probably fair. Mayo didn't have a game for six weeks yet Kerry were winning games in a provincial championship they've said isn't easy for years. It's fair to ask why Kerry were not up to speed or how a different system would of helped them!

Kerry will adapt, they always do but my view is they're not used to tough championship games in May and got a shock yesterday. It's been like this for years amongst their competitors, for this reason alone the whole system is much fairer."
Good post. Thats the thing, this is the adversity other counties have had to face for years, less places to hide and to land in Croke Park with just a Semi play - it can only be good for the game. I include my own county in that.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4516 - 21/05/2023 10:01:17    2479896

Link

Replying To legendzxix:  "No doubt. Mayo's fully deserving win though does highlight a flawed seeding. For provincial titles as per the topic title to be relevant, Mayo, Tyrone, Roscommon and Monaghan should have been Seed 2. Provincial winners then would play a natural Seed 3 in Round 1 and a natural Seed 2 in Round 3. Congratulations on today's win!"
Maybe the answer is to use a co-efficient like they do in soccer. Results over the previous 3 seasons taken into account and a teams seeding being based on an average over the period. Louth, Clare, and Sligo would get their true seeding among the 16 teams that qualified for the group stage in that situation.

PoolSturgeon (Galway) - Posts: 2015 - 21/05/2023 10:03:38    2479898

Link

Replying To Tacaí Liatroma:  "This looks good, but:
1. What's the significance of the 13th provisional spot?
2. How is promotion and relegation from and to the Tailteann Cup handled? Is it 2 up, two down?"
3 up 3 down.

13th provisional spot is the last tier 1 spot.

Tier 2 placing a do the following

1st in group home semifinal
2nd in group away semifinal
3rd in group home promotion quarterfinal
4th in group away promotion quarterfinal

Playoffs week 1
Tier 2 semifinals
Promotion quarterfinals

Week 2
Promotion Semifinals (Tier2 beaten semifinalists v Promotion quarterfinal winners)

Week 3

Tier 2 Championship final
Promotion Final


Tier 2 Champions guaranteed a Tier 1 place the following season.

2 other provisional spots given but these teams may need to playoff for the spot dependent on the Provincial champions the next season.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4519 - 21/05/2023 10:50:14    2479911

Link

Replying To Whammo86:  "3 up 3 down.

13th provisional spot is the last tier 1 spot.

Tier 2 placing a do the following

1st in group home semifinal
2nd in group away semifinal
3rd in group home promotion quarterfinal
4th in group away promotion quarterfinal

Playoffs week 1
Tier 2 semifinals
Promotion quarterfinals

Week 2
Promotion Semifinals (Tier2 beaten semifinalists v Promotion quarterfinal winners)

Week 3

Tier 2 Championship final
Promotion Final


Tier 2 Champions guaranteed a Tier 1 place the following season.

2 other provisional spots given but these teams may need to playoff for the spot dependent on the Provincial champions the next season."
There would be dead rubbers in the last 2 rounds of tier 2 is the big flaw.

I don't know though. I think the GAA go a bit crazy trying to eliminate dead rubbers and by doing so narrow what can be done with the competitions.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4519 - 21/05/2023 11:20:50    2479920

Link

Replying To legendzxix:  "Mayo gave Kerry a good lesson. No complaints. Louth, Clare and Sligo being Seed 2 ahead of Mayo, Roscommon, Tyrone and Monaghan is a flaw. The GAA have fully acknowledged that their are flaws that will have to be ironed out."
It doesn't hide the fact a Mayo, Roscommon or Galway could get relegated from a competitive Division 1 next season and then go on to lose a provincial final, a scenario that happened with Armagh this season. That would result in them likely going into Seed 3 group so the system cannot be overhauled to guarantee Provincial champions a so called easier first game.

In my opinion the whole system results in fairness and every team will have the same challanges along the road.

sam1884 (UK) - Posts: 999 - 21/05/2023 11:27:57    2479922

Link

Replying To legendzxix:  ""Provincial Titles Are No Longer Relevant". Provincial titles are no longer relevant when league winners like Mayo are the Seed 3 opponent. Any team can beat another and fair play to Mayo! It is a flaw that league winners like Mayo were the Seed 3 opponent for any provincial winner.

Fairer seeding under the current new format:
Seed 1: Galway, Kerry, Dublin and Derry.
Seed 2: Mayo, Roscommon, Tyrone and Monaghan. Seed 3: Armagh, Donegal, Louth and Cork.
Seed 4: Kildare, Clare, Westmeath and Sligo."
Can you understand the posts you reply to? The 2023 system was set up in advance. Most provinces seeded, based on 2022 League positions, which inluenced Seeds 1 and 2 in the round robin. When you don't agree with a post you'll come up with some way to fix the 'flaws'. Ridiculous.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7971 - 21/05/2023 12:54:21    2479945

Link

Replying To Whammo86:  "3 up 3 down.

13th provisional spot is the last tier 1 spot.

Tier 2 placing a do the following

1st in group home semifinal
2nd in group away semifinal
3rd in group home promotion quarterfinal
4th in group away promotion quarterfinal

Playoffs week 1
Tier 2 semifinals
Promotion quarterfinals

Week 2
Promotion Semifinals (Tier2 beaten semifinalists v Promotion quarterfinal winners)

Week 3

Tier 2 Championship final
Promotion Final


Tier 2 Champions guaranteed a Tier 1 place the following season.

2 other provisional spots given but these teams may need to playoff for the spot dependent on the Provincial champions the next season."
Tailteann Cup runners-up get a provisional spot too I presume?

You know, this might actually work!

Tacaí Liatroma (Leitrim) - Posts: 1173 - 21/05/2023 13:44:23    2479956

Link

Replying To Whammo86:  "There would be dead rubbers in the last 2 rounds of tier 2 is the big flaw.

I don't know though. I think the GAA go a bit crazy trying to eliminate dead rubbers and by doing so narrow what can be done with the competitions."
True. Dead rubbers are always going to happen. Even the glorious National Football League isn't immune. And any, weren't Leitrim out of contention in the Lory Meagher Cup yesterday against a Cavan team who needed to win to secure a final place. Leitrim, with nothing to play for in terms of progress in the competition, earned a one-point win. Just cos teams have nothing to play for, it doesn't mean the game is a total irrevelance.

Tacaí Liatroma (Leitrim) - Posts: 1173 - 21/05/2023 14:00:01    2479959

Link

Replying To Tacaí Liatroma:  "Tailteann Cup runners-up get a provisional spot too I presume?

You know, this might actually work!"
Yeah Tier 2 beaten finalists are provisionally qualified also.

It's basically trying to make the championship the old league. There's a few bells and whistles to keep there being meaningful matches throughout the group phases.

Provincial champions are accommodated.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4519 - 21/05/2023 14:26:27    2479965

Link

Replying To sam1884:  "It doesn't hide the fact a Mayo, Roscommon or Galway could get relegated from a competitive Division 1 next season and then go on to lose a provincial final, a scenario that happened with Armagh this season. That would result in them likely going into Seed 3 group so the system cannot be overhauled to guarantee Provincial champions a so called easier first game.

In my opinion the whole system results in fairness and every team will have the same challanges along the road."
The league is a fair ranking 1 to 32. Any county relegated from Division 1 can't be giving out about a Seed 3 from that.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8779 - 21/05/2023 15:24:47    2479981

Link

Replying To GreenandRed:  "Can you understand the posts you reply to? The 2023 system was set up in advance. Most provinces seeded, based on 2022 League positions, which inluenced Seeds 1 and 2 in the round robin. When you don't agree with a post you'll come up with some way to fix the 'flaws'. Ridiculous."
Can you understand the posts you reply to? Mayo being Seed 3 is a flawed seeding. The 2023 system was setup in advance. The GAA also acknowledged there will be improvements to be made. Seeding provincial runners-up higher than the league winner is a flaw.
Are you saying that Louth, Clare and Sligo seeded above Mayo is an accurate seeding?

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8779 - 21/05/2023 15:31:47    2479983

Link

Replying To legendzxix:  "The league is a fair ranking 1 to 32. Any county relegated from Division 1 can't be giving out about a Seed 3 from that."
I don't think anybody is giving out except you. I sense from your original post you found it unfair Kerry had to play Mayo yesterday. My point is yes Seed 3 was stronger this season but if you change it around depending on results Seed 3 could still be somewhat stronger than Seed 2 next season. Teams will play three games, same for everybody get on with it.

sam1884 (UK) - Posts: 999 - 21/05/2023 16:23:28    2479997

Link

Replying To sam1884:  "I don't think anybody is giving out except you. I sense from your original post you found it unfair Kerry had to play Mayo yesterday. My point is yes Seed 3 was stronger this season but if you change it around depending on results Seed 3 could still be somewhat stronger than Seed 2 next season. Teams will play three games, same for everybody get on with it."
Playing the league winners Mayo as Seed 3 was a disadvantage of winning a provincial championship. It is what it is this year. The GAA have admitted their will be fine tuning.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8779 - 21/05/2023 17:07:29    2480042

Link

Replying To legendzxix:  "Playing the league winners Mayo as Seed 3 was a disadvantage of winning a provincial championship. It is what it is this year. The GAA have admitted their will be fine tuning."
The 3rd seeds are probably on average better than the 2nd seeds.

It's less of an issue though given 3 qualify and won't make a big difference on the final 8 ultimately.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4519 - 22/05/2023 10:00:41    2480329

Link

Replying To Whammo86:  "The 3rd seeds are probably on average better than the 2nd seeds.

It's less of an issue though given 3 qualify and won't make a big difference on the final 8 ultimately."
Tailteann Seed 1s played at home against a natural Seed 3. For provincial winners to play at home against a natural Seed 3, league rankings will have to be used for Seed 2, 3 and 4.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8779 - 22/05/2023 10:25:14    2480349

Link

Replying To legendzxix:  "Tailteann Seed 1s played at home against a natural Seed 3. For provincial winners to play at home against a natural Seed 3, league rankings will have to be used for Seed 2, 3 and 4."
Is it because you want the 2 best teams playing last is the reason why it's important?

The home/away split doesn't seem that impactful to me.

Think the biggest impact is that it makes the draw harder for other losing provincial finalists. Still 3 go through so I don't even know how big of a deal that is. Probably makes the path slightly harder to the semifinals but still doesn't seem like a huge issue if it would be a marginal improvement.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4519 - 22/05/2023 11:23:07    2480411

Link