National Forum

Joe McDonagh Cup 2023

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Replying To jobber:  "Its important the Mcdonagh teams are competitive.I dont think either will win but if we could turnover Wexford on a good day????"
The gap in S and C and fitness is closing fast between the middle and top tiers. And there are many players on middle tier teams good enough to play for tip tier counties. At underage there have been many instances of upsets recently. Laois minors beat both Wexford and Kilkenny last year. Offaly minors a bit unlucky in the minor AI final. Westmeath u20s went well against Wexford this year. Offaly u20s beat Galway, Dublin and Wexford. Kildare u20s beat Wexford 2 years ago. Growing the game in schools and clubs in non hurling areas of these counties will increase the pick. Results like the Westmeath Wexford one will become more common at Senior in the future.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 9701 - 14/06/2023 10:31:20    2486373

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The last two McDonagh champions have retained their Leinster status. It is a positive statistic that has been overlooked.
Carlow and Offaly I would hope are capable of a similar challenge that Antrim put up to Cork last year. The Preliminary Quarter-finals will become more of a banana skin for third placed provincial sides.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7583 - 14/06/2023 11:00:47    2486381

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The last two McDonagh champions have retained their Leinster status. It is a positive statistic that has been overlooked.
Carlow and Offaly I would hope are capable of a similar challenge that Antrim put up to Cork last year. The Preliminary Quarter-finals will become more of a banana skin for third placed provincial sides."
I think we're not far off a stage where Tier 1 should have two groups of 6. Obviously, it would be ideal if Kerry could get into the Munster group, but failing that one of the two McDonagh finalists next year could go into Munster if Kerry did not make the final. Then, the bottom team in each group play each other in a relegation playoff. No non-Munster team would be in the Munster group for more than 1 year if they survive the relegation playoff…

Observer23 (UK) - Posts: 17 - 14/06/2023 18:53:01    2486504

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Replying To Observer23:  "I think we're not far off a stage where Tier 1 should have two groups of 6. Obviously, it would be ideal if Kerry could get into the Munster group, but failing that one of the two McDonagh finalists next year could go into Munster if Kerry did not make the final. Then, the bottom team in each group play each other in a relegation playoff. No non-Munster team would be in the Munster group for more than 1 year if they survive the relegation playoff…"
Not at all. If hurling is to go to 2 groups of 6, the 12 All-Ireland teams can play knockout provincial championships after the league and before the 2 groups of 6 start. The McDonagh Cup winners then would only earn promotion only.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7583 - 14/06/2023 19:42:12    2486517

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Replying To Observer23:  "I think we're not far off a stage where Tier 1 should have two groups of 6. Obviously, it would be ideal if Kerry could get into the Munster group, but failing that one of the two McDonagh finalists next year could go into Munster if Kerry did not make the final. Then, the bottom team in each group play each other in a relegation playoff. No non-Munster team would be in the Munster group for more than 1 year if they survive the relegation playoff…"
Why not? If they win the playoff would they not deserve to stay? And suppose Offaly or Laois or someone else end up in Munster and beat Waterford or someone else having a down year who lose all the rest of their games. They won't even be in the relegation final.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 9701 - 14/06/2023 21:12:25    2486539

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Replying To jobber:  "Its important the Mcdonagh teams are competitive.I dont think either will win but if we could turnover Wexford on a good day????"
I think Carlow will give Dublin a good match. I can't see Offaly beating or getting close to Tipp.

Trump2020 (Galway) - Posts: 1961 - 15/06/2023 07:55:23    2486560

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Replying To Viking66:  "Why not? If they win the playoff would they not deserve to stay? And suppose Offaly or Laois or someone else end up in Munster and beat Waterford or someone else having a down year who lose all the rest of their games. They won't even be in the relegation final."
Fair comment. I just wonder what would happen if the same team, say Laois or Offaly were in Munster and got beaten by everyone year after year? There'd be an outcry against that too. So, just thought mixing up the non-Munster team in Munster group each year would give them a better chance so that they wouldn't become "the whipping boys" in the Munster group. Same probably holds through for Kerry to some degree but it would be good if they could have a go of it for 2-3 years as they are a Munster county after all..

Observer23 (UK) - Posts: 17 - 15/06/2023 13:42:14    2486663

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Carlow v Dublin.

It's my belief that should Carlow play with the same intensity with the same hunger for victory, if they set up and take their scoring chances then at the final whistle it may very well be a great day for Carlow hurling.
It must be remembered that no one gave Carlow a sporting chance against Offaly, some even put Offaly, Laois and Kerry as the top 3 in the J Mc D Cup and the only ones that were in with a chance of winning the competition.
Carlow hurlers have come along way since the inception of the Ring Cup, further than some of the afore mentioned, no disrespect.

I'm not suggesting for a minute that Carlow hurlers are going to stop Limerick going for 5 in a row but hopefully win or draw against Dublin they will win the respect of a few more neutral fans.

supersub15 (Carlow) - Posts: 2843 - 16/06/2023 11:47:24    2486819

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Good post. I think kildare were ahead in the betting with only Down ranked lower than carlow going into the joe mcd. I believe we have a chance on Saturday if the lads play to their ability and like you said bring that intensity to the game. Its a very difficult task, Dublin were unlucky not to beat galway the last day out. Hopefully we can stun the hurling world. Them lads have done the carlow jersey proud. Hopefully there will be a massive carlow crowd at it to roar them on. Ceatharlach Abu!

Unusedsub (Carlow) - Posts: 51 - 16/06/2023 12:42:56    2486844

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Weather wise for Carlow / Dublin game, downpours expected through out the day, if so it could have a telling effect on the quality of the game and final score.?

supersub15 (Carlow) - Posts: 2843 - 17/06/2023 09:45:45    2487025

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Said it before and I say it again, it's farcical having prelim quarter finals as it stands.
Carlow have earned their right to be in the Liam Mc for next year. Westmeath have been relegated and came no where near getting into this years AI series, yet they have a really good chance of reaching a prelim quarter final next year while the odds of carlow making it into next years AI series is not good.
For the life of me I can't understand why people seem to think this is logical.
I'm not picking on Carlow as they leave had a great year but the system is bonkers in my opinion

tiobraid (Tipperary) - Posts: 4119 - 19/06/2023 09:37:25    2487076

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Replying To tiobraid:  "Said it before and I say it again, it's farcical having prelim quarter finals as it stands.
Carlow have earned their right to be in the Liam Mc for next year. Westmeath have been relegated and came no where near getting into this years AI series, yet they have a really good chance of reaching a prelim quarter final next year while the odds of carlow making it into next years AI series is not good.
For the life of me I can't understand why people seem to think this is logical.
I'm not picking on Carlow as they leave had a great year but the system is bonkers in my opinion"
The price of bringing Galway and Antrim into Leinster.If you dont like it you take them and sort out relegation from Munster to Joe Mcdonagh.

jobber (Westmeath) - Posts: 1271 - 19/06/2023 09:50:09    2487084

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Replying To jobber:  "The price of bringing Galway and Antrim into Leinster.If you dont like it you take them and sort out relegation from Munster to Joe Mcdonagh."
That response makes absolutely zero sense to me. I've said before I'd have had no issue if Tipp were relegated last year as they didn't deserve to be in Liam Mc based on losing all their games
Can you tell me in what other sport does "intermediate winner and runners up" get straight into the latter stages of the senior cship. Imagine Tipp last year or wexford next year (had either been relegated) went on and won the AI the following year and having an easier route into it. There would be uproar. Mind boggling and fairly sure we've seen the last of it

tiobraid (Tipperary) - Posts: 4119 - 19/06/2023 10:02:09    2487093

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Replying To tiobraid:  "Said it before and I say it again, it's farcical having prelim quarter finals as it stands.
Carlow have earned their right to be in the Liam Mc for next year. Westmeath have been relegated and came no where near getting into this years AI series, yet they have a really good chance of reaching a prelim quarter final next year while the odds of carlow making it into next years AI series is not good.
For the life of me I can't understand why people seem to think this is logical.
I'm not picking on Carlow as they leave had a great year but the system is bonkers in my opinion"
Saturday was a great day in Carlow. 7000 at the game and a huge number of them were kids from Carlow who brought hurls with them. Great for promoting the game across the county. Nice to get a homecoming game also after winning McDonagh. That all has to have a value with retaining.

I'd be inclined to agree though the beaten McDonagh finalists should be left out of it. Their season is over when losing the final and hard up get an appetite for a higher level game.

Onion Breath (Carlow) - Posts: 1407 - 19/06/2023 10:04:35    2487095

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Replying To Onion Breath:  "Saturday was a great day in Carlow. 7000 at the game and a huge number of them were kids from Carlow who brought hurls with them. Great for promoting the game across the county. Nice to get a homecoming game also after winning McDonagh. That all has to have a value with retaining.

I'd be inclined to agree though the beaten McDonagh finalists should be left out of it. Their season is over when losing the final and hard up get an appetite for a higher level game."
I def think the losing finalists in particular makes a mockery of it. I'm a big fan of the Joe Mac cup and I've gone to a few games over the last couple of years and I think its a brilliant competition. I think its a joke tho that its ran off so quickly and would love to see it on before the AI but tickets might be a problem then. It needs a bigger day and not rushed off so teams can play in the Liam Mc

tiobraid (Tipperary) - Posts: 4119 - 19/06/2023 10:14:52    2487105

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Replying To tiobraid:  "That response makes absolutely zero sense to me. I've said before I'd have had no issue if Tipp were relegated last year as they didn't deserve to be in Liam Mc based on losing all their games
Can you tell me in what other sport does "intermediate winner and runners up" get straight into the latter stages of the senior cship. Imagine Tipp last year or wexford next year (had either been relegated) went on and won the AI the following year and having an easier route into it. There would be uproar. Mind boggling and fairly sure we've seen the last of it"
The "sense" of it is that when the provincial groups of five or six were introduced in Leinster and Munster, and Leinster had to accommodate Galway and sometimes Antrim, it meant that other Leinster counties such as Laois, Westmeath, Carlow and Offaly had to go into the newly-created Joe McDonagh Cup.

This meant that while realistically (and no disrespect to anyone) that they'd have had only slim chance anyway of reaching the latter stages of the Liam McCarthy Cup, they'd have no chance whatsoever if confined completely to the McDonagh. So, the compromise was that the McDonagh winners and runners-up would go into the preliminary quarter-finals against the third-placed teams from Munster and Leinster.

That's the thinking behind it. But like yourself, I'm not sure it's a practice worth continuing. And I say that despite being very conscious that it's a route we in Wexford came very close to having to look at next year.

There's now been eight of these preliminary quarter-finals played since the system was introduced (2018, 19, 22 and 23 - none in 2020 or 21 due how championship operated differently during Covid). Laois beating Dublin by two points in 2019 remains the only win for a McDonagh Cup team. In the other seven matches, the combined margin of victory is 132 points. That's an average of nearly 19 points per game. And no McDonagh Cup team has kept it to single digits. In fairness to Carlow, they came closest to managing that, as Dublin beat them by "only" ten points.

Also like yourself, I can't think of a single other example of the winners of a secondary competition going straight into the latter stages of a primary competition in the same year, when a number of other and stronger teams have already been eliminated from the primary competition.

In particular, there were no calls for the Tailteann Cup to be run off more quickly, so that the winners could go straight into something like a quarter-final of the Sam Maguire Cup. That it itself may be a factor when or if the whole McDonagh Cup/preliminary quarter-finals issue is reconsidered.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 1757 - 19/06/2023 10:39:55    2487135

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Replying To tiobraid:  "That response makes absolutely zero sense to me. I've said before I'd have had no issue if Tipp were relegated last year as they didn't deserve to be in Liam Mc based on losing all their games
Can you tell me in what other sport does "intermediate winner and runners up" get straight into the latter stages of the senior cship. Imagine Tipp last year or wexford next year (had either been relegated) went on and won the AI the following year and having an easier route into it. There would be uproar. Mind boggling and fairly sure we've seen the last of it"
I wouldnt open an account with Paddy Power if i was you.Id suggest you should be asking your Munster council to help Kerry improve before you start knocking Joe Mcdonagh.

jobber (Westmeath) - Posts: 1271 - 19/06/2023 10:53:02    2487151

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